Big Ashen One Revision

[Overlord775]

In the Usurpation of the Fire Ending, the Ashen One asborbs the Fiist Flame in to himself, so he should have a separe key for it

His AP for the key would be:

At least Large Star level, possibly Solar System level (Vastly stronger than before, absorbed the First Flame, the ultimate power of the verse.), Possibly Low Multiversal Level (The First Flame created light, with Light = Time as shown by Repair,

Lost sorcery from Oolacile, land of ancient golden sorceries.

While the effects of this spell are rather subtle, its foundations are a well-guarded secret.

Light is time, and the reversal of its effects is a forbidden art.

-DS3 Description)

and it works on a multi-universal scale, as summoned phantoms and invaders come from different "worlds")

He would also have Low Multiversal Range, as the First Flames affects a lot of "worlds"

The Ashen One also gains all of this abilities from the First Flame:

Enhanced Fire Manipulation (duh)

Reality Warping ("In the Age of Ancients the world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of gray crags, Archtrees and Everlasting Dragons.." , but it changes to what it's now after the First Flame appeared, and has been constantly changing trought the serie)

Creation (Created the sun)

Heat and Cold Manipulation, Life and Death Manipulation and Light and Darkness Manipulation (But then there was Fire and with fire came disparity. Heat and cold, life and death, and of course, light and dark. This is confirmed by the Souls of Lords and the Dark soul, which emdoy said concepts (Gwyn = Light. Pigmin = Dark, Nito = Death, Izalith = Life)

Conceptual Manipulation (Added Disparity to the world, as swell as time)

Enhanced Soul Manipulation (The First Flame is the origin of all souls in the Dark Souls verse, also can replenish itself by consuming souls)

Power Bestowal (The First Flame created the Souls of Lord and the Dark Soul) and thus also would likely have all the powers derived from those souls, such has the powers of Gwy, Nito, the Witch of Izalith, Manus and Gael's stuff he gets from the Dark Soul

Space-Time Manipulation (It's the origin of all space-time anomalies in the verse, such has:

"The flow of time itself is convoluted; with heroes centuries old phasing in and out. The very fabric wavers, and relations shift and obscure. There's no telling how much longer your world and mine will remain in contact."

Caused The Dreg Heap the collapse of all eras in to a single place

Space-Time being convoluted in Lothric, with lands shifting and moving and allowing to travel to the Untended Graves. a location in the past, just by walking there.)

also the First Flame created time, as Light = Time)

Resurrection ("When the link of the fire is threatened, the bell tolls, unearthing the old Lords of Cinders from their graves...")

Transmutation (Those who survive the Kindlind procress are trasformed in Lord of Cincers)

Law Manipulation (Twisted Wall of Light, a light-based sourcery, does this:

A closely-guarded light manipulation spell that contorts the very fabric of fundamental laws, negating magic by denying its claim to physicality.

So the First Flame, the source of all light, would vastly upscale from this)

Enhanced Magic (The First Flame is indirectly responsible for all magic and pyromancies in the verse)

 

[SpookyShadow]

2-C is pretty controversial but I agree with rest

 

[DarkGrath]

Low 2-C has been rejected in the past, but I don't quite remember the reasonings behind it. Frankly, I'm not opposed to it being discussed again.

Other than that though, there are a few problems.

Resurrection - As far as I'm aware, the "Old Lords of Cinder" being risen from their graves was the result of them being resurrected by people in the hope that they would link the first flame again. This wouldn't really be the first flames feat in that case (though I could be mistaken).

Also, I'm not entirely positive if transmutation fits the description of becoming a Lord of Cinder. This doesn't seem to be much of a physical transformation, at least not to the extent that transmutation would imply.

I would recommend asking Sir Ovens for help with this thread. He seems to be the most knowledgeable with Dark Souls (off the top of my head, at least) and this is a pretty intensive and overarching revision.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Ashen already has some of those abilities like Lawhax

 

[Overlord775]

Resurrection - As far as I'm aware, the "Old Lords of Cinder" being risen from their graves was the result of them being resurrected by people in the hope that they would link the first flame again. This wouldn't really be the first flames feat in that case (though I could be mistaken).

Well, i guess it could be interpreted as the bell doing the resurrection, but one would think that something of that importance would have least be mentioned or have a lore bit.

So, i think it's more implied that it was the Flame itself to raise them back

Also, I'm not entirely positive if transmutation fits the description of becoming a Lord of Cinder. This doesn't seem to be much of a physical transformation, at least not to the extent that transmutation would imply.

Part of their body become cinder-like and flamy, but i guess it's pretty minor

I would recommend asking Sir Ovens for help with this thread. He seems to be the most knowledgeable with Dark Souls (off the top of my head, at least) and this is a pretty intensive and overarching revision.

I'll do that

@Spooky

Yes, but they would be on vastly stronger in this key

Like, the one thing is manipuating light with a spell, one is having the embodiment of all light at your disposal

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Power Bestowal does not automatically give the bestower the bestowee's powers.

That being said, you missed out concept manip. The FF literally introduced the concept of time and disparity.

Also, first flame is either Low 2-C or 2-B, but this needs more discussion. Based on what Bambu told me, every universe has its own First Flame. if that's true, this version of Ashen should only be Low 2-C. But if the FF is truely the source of every universe, then it would be 2-B, since like Pokemon, every copy of Dark Souls is logically a timeline.

That last point requires much discussion.

 

[Overlord775]

@Ovens

Well, this case of power bestowal is different, as the Souls of Lords and the Dark Soul are directly originated from it, so it would make sense that the FF has the composite proprieties of all of them.

Also, my bad, will add Concept Manipulation in the OP

Another thing, i was talking of NPCs phantoms and invadors, but i guess that could be expanded to multiplier stuff too

 

[SpookyShadow]

I want 2-B Dark Souls for Christmas right now.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

**** yeah, 2-C Dark Souls! Let's Go!

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Honestly, if we're low balling it, First Flame is Low 2-C. It's possibly 2-B.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Wasnt this previously rejected? What new evidence has been brought up?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

If this actually goes through, ill be ******* amazed!

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Please watch your language

From what i can tell this exact upgrade was proposed here some time ago and was rejected

 

[Overlord775]

Wasnt this previously rejected? What new evidence has been brought up?

It was rejected because it was said that creating time=/=Low 2-C

Though, i think creating time is actually considered Low 2-C iirc

also. the effects of the FF clearly affect space too

BTW. what are your thoughts on the rest of the revision ?

 

[Ogbunabali]

I don't think 2-B should be legit. Given that, in every game everyone plays there exists its own Fire that needs to be linked. Unless you say that the very first Fire that was linked created all the other timelines in which there are other Fires, but that's way too speculative, and we're given no reason to assume as such.

 

[DMUA]

I think I recall why I never liked this, back when it initially got brought up.

For one: it would mean that a majority of the verse is infinite speed for travelling in timeless voids. Artorius, The Three Kings, mid gamed chosen undead, and literally everyone who makes it to the lord of hollows ending

For two: Time=light is wack and it is never mentioned anywhere else throughout the entire series, despite the fact that the world being a giant, timeless void seems like a pretty forking big deal

And, now that I think about it, thirdly: I don't think this even qualifies for 2-C or Low 2-C anyways, considering the universe is still perfectly in tact when the light goes out. It's not like they're actually maintaining a universe or several, just it's time (supposedly, if you take an offhand item description that very well has the potential to be metaphorical at face value)

 

[Overlord775]

Well, for first It wouldn't even classify as Infinite speed, our stardards for it are too high.

Second, it being a timeless void without the FF isn't really a thing people outside of people from the age of ancients would really even know about, and maybe could even be what Aldia was referring to when he called the world an "illusion", but that's more speculation that anything.

Also, Oolacile is the only source of light-spells in the serie, which commited le die hundreds of years before the events of DS1, and Seath, the only one other person that would have knowlage on them, went insane, so there being only a few mentions of it kinda makes sense

And lastly, Repair being time-based is also mentioned in it's DS2 description too

"Uses light to repair damaged weapons and armor. Supposedly this sorcery restores items to a past state, but with the knowledge of this art lost, the finer details of the phenomenon are unknown."

Also, what kinda of metaphor would it even be ? like it straight up just says the spell works by using time manipulation.

 

[DMUA]

I have no idea why it straight up lacking light and thereby time would not be applicable but okay

Might I have the lunacy to suggest that it's not a thing because taking away light doesn't actually take away time in this case?

Meabing you have very little evidence to support moving the verse 2 entire number grades because anyone who could give you it died and had their records ruined.

Let me emphasize that it says it "supposedly" restores something to a past state but they don't know how it actually works. Even then, that's two spells out of an entire verse of lore.

 

[Overlord775]

>Even then, that's two spells out of an entire verse of lore.

The FF messing with time is very much a majour factor of DS's lore tho

 

[DMUA]

Despite the fact that time is still perfectly fine when it goes out for good?

All that really happens is that it distorts to the point where you can praise the sun a bit as you go along

 

[Overlord775]

Considering we have statements of the first flame eventually just rekingling itself, it's not really "permanent".

And i've metioned in the OP other examples of it messing with time

thought i guess it doesn't really traslate to AP

 

[DMUA]

You can't both have light=time and time still being there when the light is snuffed out, even if it's only snuffed temporarily

 

[Overlord775]

Ok ok, what about the rest of the stuff tho ?

 

[DMUA]

eh that's fine I guess sure

 

[DarkGrath]

I don't mean to be "talking above my pay grade" when it comes to this topic, but I'm honestly not sure how literal the statements of light = time should be taken.

I'm thinking about it like this; before the first flame, during the Age of Ancients, almost everything was completely stagnant. The world itself was mostly formless, dragons ruled over everything, and there was very little indication that anything changed or progressed throughout all of history beforehand.

Couldn't the statements about the first flame creating time be moreso in reference to the fact that, by all means, progression and change (concepts which are intrinsically tied to time) were all but non-existent before the coming of the first flame? Things like civilisation and a dynamic world only came because of the impact of the First Flame.

Frankly, considering that there was still clearly history during the Age of Ancients, and that time continues to progress even when the First Flame dies out and the Age of Dark comes, it's hard for me to interpret the statements literally.

 

[DMUA]

Probably

either way it's not 2-C

 

[SpookyShadow]

Oh, you were promoted? Grats Grath

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yeah I'm sorry but I gotta disagree with it being tier 2 as well

 

[Overlord775]

what about the rest ?

 

[Sir_Ovens]

As much as I'd like Low 2-C Dark Souls, I have seen arguments from Wok and Bambu (both of which have yet to enter the thread ) and I'm sorta leaning towards it just not happening.

Light could very much be time, but not in a way which would be possible for us to tier on this wiki. Plus, Ashen absorbed a dying Flame which lost a majority of the power it had when it first ignited.

 

[Overlord775]

I'll contact Wok, thought i won't Bumbu, since he's not been really active lately

 

[Wokistan]

I disagree with Low 2-C for a number of reasons.

Firstly, nobody ever gets the fire at it's full strength. By the end of DS3, even the Ashen One, absolute strongest thing in the series after getting the full dark soul and remnants of the fire, can't reignite it. All you can do is be set alight in a slow burn, as the fire's just too low to be rekindled even with essentially composite verse as fuel. This doesn't exactly present the flame you can harness as the Lord of Hollows as at it's apex.

There's also the matter that the Gael battlefield implies that even the LoH ending will eventually come to an end, and that you still don't truly break the cycle. Eventually become just another ancient ruin in the background at the end of time.

Thirdly, DS3 is the one where time is infamously ****** up. Ludleth broke time and now a time displaced firekeep and cemetery of ash is just kinda in lothric castle as the untended graves, beings from the past games show up, the dreg heap has areas just ripped from other times, Soul of Cinder manifests abilities from warriors across time, the entire Ringed City is not part of the regular flow of time until Filianore's egg cracks, etc. I don't think failing to sustain a timeline is Low 2-C. DS3 is the point where the age of light has been artificially extended for far too long and now it's just impossible to push the flame to go on longer, and time's coming apart at the seams due to this.

 

[DMUA]

Small nitpick but

I never really saw the Ashen One as the strongest person in the entire verse. The whole point seems to be that everything else is weakening and it's getting nearly impossible to actually dig up the materials and everything else to keep the fire going. The ashen one himself is someone who tried to light the flame but simply didn't have enough in him, brought back because everyone qualified to light it just dipped out after realizing the inevitability that they'd run out of fuel. The fire doesn't need more, it just needs a certain amount and getting that amount is just more and more desperate

 

[SpookyShadow]

Gael >>>>>>> Ashen One in terms of power.

 

[Wokistan]

They have as close to the full dark soul as is possible, the souls of everything in DS3, and composite LoC which among other things includes the protags of the other 2 games. They're even outside of hollowing unless you voluntarily give yourself the curse. I think it's more just that no amount of power can correctly reignite the flame now, the age of light's already been dragged out way too long and some day it will just come to an end no matter what. Even LoH seems to be temporary. The Dark Soul unlike other stuff hasn't been getting any weaker. Major issues arose because humanity forgot how to use their power properly, and that power of the abyss was immense.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

^ I agree with this part.

 

[Overlord775]

@Wok

What about the rest of the revision ?

Jesus, why do i have to repeat that question to everyone <_<

 

[Wokistan]

I don't think concept manip works

Space time stuff happens when it's failing, so it seems a little weird.

They already have twisted wall of light and resurrection, and I don't think it's needed to say "enhanced everything" specifically as opposed to the usual "everything else but much higher"

 

[Wokistan]

Just noticed though, repair repairs stuff through Time Manipulation with it's description. So that's neat.

 

[Overlord775]

I don't think concept manip works
Space time stuff happens when it's failing, so it seems a little weird.

They already have twisted wall of light and resurrection, and I don't think it's needed to say "enhanced everything" specifically as opposed to the usual "everything else but much higher"

Mind explaining why you don't think concept manipulation works ?

IIRC the FF was warping time and space to bring people to re-kindle it

and well, i guess that's right, but Ressurection is of other too now, so it should be listed.