Beyonders Attack Potency Justification

[Antvasima]

I do not think that we seem to have a good proof of them being omnipresent within the regular multiverse, but am open for staff input regarding this.

PR Beyonder was not supposed to be less powerful outside of his realm. The descriptions of his nature were just inconsistent.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay, i will ask Matthew

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

.... Question about PR Beyonder ... When did the retcon for PR Beyonder take place ? Some say it was a bit after his fight with Molecule Man, and some says in the Cosmic Cube series ? Because if the former... Quasar Comics , Secret War II and a few others supports PR Beyonder's only retcon to his power was his placement in the hierarchy ( Below those of Celestial Level ). Especially since his Beyond Realm, right when the author stated his strength was retconned to "far lower". still had a 1-A Beyond Realm statement.

 

[Antvasima]

It was in Fantastic Four 319 ("Secret Wars III"), if I remember correctly. He was here stated and shown to be of universal level instead.

In a following Fantastic Four annual (or so I think), Kosmos/"Beyonder" and Kubik stated that even the Celestials were many orders of infinity above them.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Yeah... But as usual Marvel contradict themselves, because then they have a Trans-Multiversal Battle and Beyonder can affect the totality of the Multiversal Cosmology ( And Kubik always refers to Higher-Dimensions )... Literally essentially the same series of comics by the same author.

Transfinite levels of infinity If I remember correctly.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you show some scans of this please?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Sure. Here is the scan for the Multiversal Cosmography/Cosmology scan : http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3013230-03.jpg

Kubik is saying in that scan that Beyonder's death would wreck havok across Multiversal Cosmography. Kubik has never talked describing just Alternate Universes. He always talks about Higher-Dimensions when describing the Multiverse and it's nature. He did it when he first met Cosmos... He did it when he first debutted, and he described the levels of infinity . I'm willing to be quoted on that.

I believe Matthew Schroeder agreed with the whole transfinite levels of infinity was what Kubik was deacribing back when the scans were introduced , but due to lack of evidence the past deemed it a outlier... Now I am unsure if it is or not.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I remember of the preceding conflict between the Beyonder and Molecule Man in the same story, nothing indicated a massively higher-dimensional scale, just that their battle wreaked havok across the lower multiverse. A more extreme version of this should be enough to worry Kubik, given his concern for mortal beings.

 

[Driger-God]

Kubik comment about your fight cause damage very fabric of existence, affecting infinite spatial dimensions and adjacent universes

The conflict spanning planes of existence for which there are no human words or thought(MM vs Beyonder/Kosmo)

 

[Antvasima]

He did not say that the fight with the Super-Adaptoid would affect infinite spatial dimensions, just "dimensions", which usually means magical universes with different laws of physics in Marvel.

This was also some years before the cosmic cubes were retconned as being several degrees of infinity below the Celestials in power.

 

[Antvasima]

The second image does not say anything concrete beyond that the Molecule Man was more infinite than the Post-Retcon Beyonder.

 

[Driger-God]

When is referred as magic dimensions, is reffered different. The combat affect all existence, and including the infinite dimensions(spatial dimensions) and adjacent universe (magic dimensions). But magic dimensions are realms multi dimensional.

 

[Driger-God]

The celestials create the multiverse, in classic comics where comment that the Celestial are above the Living Cube, is comment that the celestial exist outside the multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

We have no proof whatsoever of this this specifically referred to spatial dimensions, much less an actual feat on this level, and in any case it would have been retconned later, and mess up the scaling.

High 1-B cosmic cubes are definitely not going to be accepted, period. Sorry.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

anyway 2-A cosmic Cube needs to be accepted

 

[Antvasima]

That seems more reliable, yes.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

yeah they have consistently 2-A feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, it is best to wait for Matthew to finish his Elder Scrolls revision and for Sera to come back. I am not able or willing to clear this on my own.

 

[Alonik]

I think the "likely Outerverse level" of the Beyonder (Pre-Retcon) has to be removed, it does not make sense, it's an interpretation of beyond realm without the beyonder and so it runs out of space and time.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Antvasima The new tiering I mentioned doesn't make the Beyonder necessarily weaker as his physical form is still High 1-B but his Beyond Realm form, however, would receive a solid 1-A instead of "likely 1-A" instead.

 

[Alonik]

But its shape in Beyond realm it is just an extra dimensional universe 1-B

 

[Antvasima]

We decided on his current rating after a long discussion among the staff.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Alonik It's beyond all time & space.

 

[Alonik]

Without the Beyonder, the Beyond Realm becomes a kingdom without space and time. But with the Beyonder there he is all space. The Beyonder says that without it there is no place, and that when it was there it was the geometric space itself. He has already considered going back to being the Beyond Realm and getting back to being the space there. The problem is that he is a being of infinite dimensional in his form as Beyond Realm, and as a human he is a 3D being. And this happens when the Beyonder is shed by Molecular Man in Beyond Realm it expands and returns to be a Universe.

And even in the guides, Beyonder is reported as an other-dimensional universe.

Beyonder has always been worked as 1-B. 1-A It makes no sense because they are talking about a place without the Beyonder

 

[Antvasima]

We are linking to several statements about the Beyond realm as 1-A, with or without the Beyonder, in his profile, and are not going to downgrade him.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Alonik Yea, without him, its just a 1-A realm without all of the space which PR Beyonder embodies. Not to mention that it also stated in the 2nd scan you provided which explains that PR Beyonder can become the Beyond Realm at anytime he wants, hence why I suggested "High 1-B. 1-A as the Beyond Realm" for his tiering which would work better for him. No, not exactly. It's more like this:

• As the Beyond Realm = 1-A being
• As an Abstract Entity = High 1-B being
• As a human (through dimensional shifting) = 3-D being

Molecule Man opened a portal first and used a power conduit to create an universe inside the Beyond Realm (which is indeed possible to do).

The Beyonder's physical form may be made of all other-dimensional universes but not his Beyond Realm, however, which isn't the case.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Antvasima It's a separation of tiers, not a downgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

It is based on speculation, and would cause a backlash against the wiki, so I would prefer to keep the statistics as is. I would appreciate if you drop the subject. I do not have the time to argue about it.

 

[Elizio33]

Is this necessary to add this?

• The Beyonders transcends the label of being and doing things at chronological order┬À

• The Beyonders are not limited by space and energy or anything within reaso.

• Add all the abilities of the Cosmic Cubes since their powers derive from the Beyonders themself.

• Add some new abilities.

• Pocket Reality Manipulation here

• Adaptation here

• Possibly Existence Erasure here

• Space-Time Manipulation

• Portal Creation here

• Technological Manipulation here

• Explosion Manipulation here

• Creation

• Body Control

• Deconstruction here

• Quantum Manipulation

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the chronological order scan also says that they are a part of the Negative Zone, which has been retconned.

The scan that states that they are not limited by space or energy seems fine.

I am uncertain about automatically listing all the abilities of cosmic cubes.

Pocket reality manipulation seems fine.

We have not seen proof of Adaptation as we define it.

That is not existence erasure. Thanos' spirit remained. However, most of the multiverse itself seems to have been erased. That is more likely simply due to them vastly transcending such a scale though.

Portal creation is fine.

Technological manipulation seems fine.

Explosion manipulation is just energy manipulation, which I think that they already have.

Deconstruction seems fine.

The other abilities have no examples.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay, can i add the scan and abilities you accepted?

• For Body Control: The Beyonders can transform their body parts the same way Apocalypse do. Like changing arms into blade or masse.

• For Space-Time Manipulaton: God Doom merged several earths' remains to create Battleworld. I think this could be a form space-time manipulation.

• For Adaptation: The Beyonders can change and take new forms. So, i think adaptation is fine.

• Another feat from God Doom

 

[Antvasima]

Space-Time manipulation should be fine to add. Body control seems inappropriate for beings who only manifest in physocal forms for the conveniences of others, and your description is not what adaptation is, as far as I am aware.

Outclassing Black Bolt power-wise is not much of a feat.

 

[Antvasima]

You can add the accepted powers in any case.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay can you unlock the profile please. Can i also add the scan that states that they are not limited by space or energy. For the feat, With a snap of fingers, God Doom recreated the domain of New Atillan in different form and erased memory of it's people.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That would just be Reality Warping and Memory Manipulation though.

You can add the scan, yes.

I will unlock the page. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm done thank you. I will ask Matthew or Sandman31 if we can add all the powers of the cosmic cubes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Elizio33]

Is this necessary to add a third key for their non-corporeal forms? (Within the Beyond Realm) the justification could be the scan stating that the Beyonders embodies the Beyond/Outside from Captain America and the mighty Avengers.

 

[Antvasima]

A third key does not seem necessary.