Beyonders Attack Potency Justification

[Antvasima]

Okay. Good.

I would like to upgrade them, but am waiting for Matthew, Azathoth, or Sandman31 to reply.

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew says that he is fine with the upgrade, but that he needs help from the community to find more scans that prove that the Tribunal and The Beyonders are 1-A first:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2436284

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

I've been agreed with those characters being portrayed as 1-A. My major problem is some of the Abstracts and those far below their level of power has been referred to in a 1-A sense before ( I'm looking at you, DaMatteis ) .

I'm also having difficulty determining where the Griever would be... Since despite killing MM ( Who I agree should be upgraded ) , she is stated to at least be in the similar realm as Multi-Abstracts, meaning the difference between the Beyonders and Multi-Abstracts isn't infinite^infinite ... That huge in Hickman's eyes. Especially considering some were shown to put up a fight. Not to mention quite a few more things.

I am not saying I agree wih Multi-Abstracts being 1-A ... Just we defintely have to deal with these specific issues first.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we have to consider the Griever killing an aspect of the Molecule Man as dumb plot convenience. She was strictly considered to be an avatar of destruction able to destroy one universe at a time.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I would appreciate scans directly related to the Tribunal if you can find them. We already have the one I showed above.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

She was also stated to be a bigger threat to Creation than anything else prior by Reed Richards... That would likely include the Beyonders since the event just happened and it would be rather fresh in his mind. Though I can agree to ignore it and label it as a outlier/PIS statement.

And sure I'll try to find some.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help. Others are free to help out as well.

 

[Elizio33]

The Living Tribunal transcend the realms of death eternity, order and chaos and all dualities.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

the dead corpse of TLT is capable of no sell high 1-B destruction. (even the corpse alone)

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

@Seed well he said he believed she is one of them. Never stats she amd the others are comparable.

 

[LightinAnt]

I agree with the Beyonders, TLT etc. being 1-A, though this would create scaling issues to other characters

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

So what we got for beyonders.

Molecule man was capable of creating the omniverse including the neutral zone and superflow. MM Capable of putting a dead omniverse in a box.

MM is stronger than Multi abstracts including ones that has the totality of the 6th multiverse (The Multiverse of science and creator of crossroads)

Beyonders are from Outside and embodies it.

Another kind of race similiar to the beyonders was stated to be a reality warping omni-being.

TLT deadskin alone could tank the omniverse destruction (including the neutral zone) so this would proof TLT being stronger than high 1-B

As for Eternity. Destroying him should be higher than just High 1-B. since Eternity contains the neutral zone which is a place that is beyond the highest level of existence, concepts and informations within the superflow flow, the superflow itself and the omniverse. And is the edge to the outside and science.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

And the Dead corpse was an avatar in fact

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Anyway is the beyond realm in this story 1-A?

It was stated it's outside the sum of eternity. and within eternity contains all the abstracts including TLT. Eternity in this story also contains different planes of existence while the highest plane for kubik was 4D as he said the highest plane of existence is whichever one you currently occupy

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

https://imgur.com/a/SF0Fqqr

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

https://imgur.com/a/SF0Fqqr

Pretty sure this was very obvious in the Ultimates.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

https://imgur.com/a/SF0Fqqr

Pretty sure this was very obvious in the Ultimates.

Ofcourse.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

that screenshot came from a time when First firmament was hyped.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Bump.

I remembered some things that may or may not help here. Should we use DaMatteis' works (Such as the constant references for 1-A Hindiusm Concepts such as Atman being treated as far weaker than the Celestials and Multi-Abstracts... The reason why I said it is because Sandman agreed that the thing described , which was actually a extremely small fraction of the Nexus of All Realities empowering him to do it , was a 1-A concept... But then in Daydreamers [DaMatteis comic that takes place after that event] FR re-created the Full Nexus and overloads someone who can handle said Nexus in full within himself.) . Could I use scaling to that to help determine TLT's tier or no ?

 

[Antvasima]

This upgrade is specifically for The Living Tribunal and The Beyonders, not Multi-Eternity and the regular abstract entities, who generally seem to be portrayed as bound by space and time.

Was there even any explicit statement about the Neutral Zone being qualitatively superior to all levels of space and time?

I am not sure if we should use DeMatteis stories, no, given that he tends to try to make anything and anyone he gets his hands on 1-A, regardless how little sense it makes. A 1-A Dormammu and Umar are not on my to-do list for example.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I know this directly . I'm just trying to see if we could "potentially" use DaMatteis' works to attempt to ugrade those far weaker than Eternity & TLT to give them a method of 1-A scaling they wouldn't receive otherwise.

It was explicitly stated as "beyond all concepts" yes... So it very likely is.

TBF Umar and Dormammu were not only heavily amped, but also having a untold number of magical artifacts when doing it... And they attempted to go for a weak spot even with all the amps... So normally they aren't anywhere near Multi-Eternity. I personally feel using that one specific part to attempt to disregard DaMatteis' works is not wise. Especially when these specific concepts he used in Daydreamers & Man-Thing were seen & referenced throughout all the important Marvel Events: Heroes Reborn, Chaos War , Scarlet Witch , Mad Celestials incident , Ultimates , Secret Wars , and many others.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, perhaps we will have to make do with the following scans for the Living Tribunal's upgrade then?

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

@Ant it transcend the highest level of existence and the omniverse. the omniverse was said in same story to contain all time and space.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you show me scans where it is explicitly stated that the Neutral Zone is beyond the multiverse/"omniverse"? If if is part of Multi-Eternity, it should logically be a part of the multiversal structure.

In any case, I would prefer to start with upgrading the clear-cut cases for 1-A, and get input from Matthew, Azathoth, and Sandman31 before we proceed further.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

the Neutral Zonealso known as the ExoSpace is a place outside/beyond the highest level of existence also known as The Superflow and The Omniverse

just look at all scans here. it is both beyond the omniverse and the superflow. (reminder superflow is the highest level of the omniverse

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

And Eternity was unaffected by the destruction of the highest existence aka Superflow.

https://imgur.com/a/hjqKNot

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it wasn't destroyed. The borders between universes were just removed, so they merged into one whole instead.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Yes but it ended up with the superflow crumbling away. and because of that galactus was forced to exist outside.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, perhaps I am just not paying good attention, due to being constantly distracted by other things, but I still did not notice an explicit mention of the Neutral Zone/Exo Space being beyond the multiverse/"omniverse" or space and time in their entireties.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes but it ended up with the superflow crumbling away. and because of that galactus was forced to exist outside.

Well, that does not seem to be the same thing as Eternity's substance being truly destroyed.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Anyway, perhaps I am just not paying good attention, due to being constantly distracted by other things, but I still did not notice an explicit mention of the Neutral Zone/Exo Space being beyond the multiverse/"omniverse" or space and time in their entireties.

Here its stated to be beyond the superflow which is the highest level of the omniverse https://imgur.com/a/QmObVxU https://i.imgur.com/V4VTvuE.jpg

And here is it stated to be outer omniverse. https://imgur.com/a/B12Cd2t

Or you know Kevin that would be another proof that it is outside the multiverse. Since it was multiple times stated he is the first person to exist outside the multiverse but still within the neutral zone. https://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Kevin_Brashear_(Earth-616)

 

[Antvasima]

But all that is stated above is that the superflow connects the different universes to each other, and that the Neutral Zone is the outer part of the multiverse/"omniverse".

I also remember that Al Ewing mentioned on Twitter that he simply intended for "omniverse" to mean "everything Marvel", not all of fiction and reality combined.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Well I never said the omniverse is all of fiction and reality combined.

I don't even use the omniverse that way.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

I don't even think marvel ever used the omniverse like that within the comics

And even so it would only scale to TOAA since he embodies writers. But not saying he does tho.

 

[Antvasima]

No, I just meant that was what Al Ewing replied to, and that "everything Marvel" would include the Neutral Zone.

 

[The_Tetromino_King]

Yeah that would be for fine eternity.

As the neutral zone is outside everything else but still within eternity

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, and as such part of the multiverse.

 

[Driger-God]

The ExoSpace is part of Omniverse, but not realm of time or space, similar the Superflow where the Abstract exist, this space exist in the limit of all.

 

[Shivansh_Garg]

@Ant I believe what Tetromino is trying to say is that Kevin was stated to have went outside the Omniverse/totality yet we saw him in Neutral Zone, meaning the Neutral Zone is the place outside the cosmos where Kevin went

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but it seems more likely that he used the Exo Space/Neutral Zone to briefly exit the multiverse, like the Ultimates did.

Also, I still don't remember any explicit mentions that the Neutral Zone is qualitatively superior to all degrees of time and space.