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Beyond Dimensional Existence Revision Thread

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Nexp06 said:
Transcending or existing above the concepts of space-time is Low 1-C. Assuming it is done in relation to a 4-dimensional reality, that is.
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I disagree. Have you modified your stance gradually? A low 1-C classification devoid of any context merely implies transcendence over space-time, whereas its underlying concept is of 1-A quality.
 
ImmortalDread said:
I disagree. Have you modified your stance gradually? A low 1-C classification devoid of any context merely implies transcendence over space-time, whereas its underlying concept is of 1-A quality.
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Not anymore. That's why being above the concept of dimensions is like Low 1C as well without additional context
 
ImmortalDread said:
No since with that logic 1-A beings transcend space-time
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Tarang123 said:
Not anymore. That's why being above the concept of dimensions is like Low 1C as well without additional context
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Tarang123 said:
No? Transcending space and time is like Low 1C. I've never seen a verse get 1A off the basis of transcending space and time regardless of context
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Nexp06 said:
Transcending or existing above the concepts of space-time is Low 1-C. Assuming it is done in relation to a 4-dimensional reality, that is.
Click to expand...
ImmortalDread said:
I disagree. Have you modified your stance gradually? A low 1-C classification devoid of any context merely implies transcendence over space-time, whereas its underlying concept is of 1-A quality.
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How the hell did you guys even have this discussion? @ActuallySpaceMan42 is going to find it hilarious that you're in this state, Dread.

To achieve tier 1-A, you need to go beyond R^Infinity and above. However, just transcending space-time isn't enough to guarantee a tier 1-A status without proper context. For instance, if a character transcends their space-time manually, they'll only become an HDE if there's a higher cosmological structure or a BDE if the cosmology is limited to that space-time.

To establish that your BDE is a tier 1-A, your space-time must meet the R^Infinity or beyond criteria. If it's merely a simple 3D spatial coordinates matrix with a single temporal dimension and no higher cosmological structures, then your BDE is limited to a 3D+1D scale (or R^(3+1)).

And no, transcending space-time isn't the only way to reach tier 1-A, as long as your cosmological structure (or space-time) exceeds R^Infinity. Examples include the Low Dimensional Games verse and the former Blue and White cosmology.

Now let's stop derailing and discuss back the topic of this thread.

I will try to respond in hours.
 
Well, I unfortunately have limited time available at the moment, and DontTalk almost always tends to have the best sense of judgement in my experience.
 
Antvasima said:
What do you think about this?
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I think points 1 and 4 (barring Type 4) make some sense.

Being beyond time isn't the same as being Immeasurable aa covered in the thread that removed irrelevant speed. You can be Tier 1-A or High 1-A and still possess finite levels of speed.

Points 2 and 5 I thought we already covered with how we treat hax in comparison to dimensional superior individuals. It's why "3D" hax won't work on stuff like a R>F or higher dimensional entity. So I'm not against them but I'm not sure if they really need to he mentioned.
 
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Received Permission to comment from the OP.

I don't think there has been nearly enough actual Staff Discussion to reliably come to a cohesive and proper verdict on this thread yet. Barring Planck and Don'tTalk's comment's much earlier on, the real discussion for Staff specifically only began around 10 or so posts ago, and this seems like a topic that Staff could feasibly have differing opinions on. Seeing as there are only 8 total staff posts here, with only 5 different Staff Member's speaking- Of which, one hasn't even really seemed to give a personal opinion/stance on this (As Ant seemed more focused on having Don'tTalk's Opinion and gathering other staff when requested), I think there should be a good bit more discussion and more staff asked if they're willing to give a opinion, before this is even remotely considered to be rejected.
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
The argument presented here regarding the Resistance to Physic manipulation is flawed and fails to address the underlying reasons for its inclusion.

Magical places do exist within the framework of space-time unless explicitly noted otherwise. If a magical place exists beyond and transcends space-time, it would qualify for BDE (Beyond Dimensional Existence). It should be noted that simply having different laws does not necessarily mean that magical places resist physics.

However, it is important to recognize that there are certain places that exist beyond the limitations of space-time, and these places operate under different laws of physics. This is not merely an assumption, but rather a well-established concept in the realm of theoretical physics.
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Yeah, magical places don't exist outside spacetime, but they also disobey physics and that doesn't give them physics manipulation. Your argument for resistance to physics manipulation is entirely that the characters disobey physics, which magical beings do as well. There is no difference here. You have not established any reason why disobeying physics in one way would give resistance and disobeying physics a different way wouldn't. That physics is based on space and time is not unique. Regular physics is also based on conservation of energy, which virtually all magic breaks.

Just because you obey different physics, doesn't mean that you resist someone changing your physics.

(I will skip the reply to 3. as it's pretty conclusively rejected by past thread and input here)

Rakih_Elyan said:
While it is true that characters who temporarily exist in a timeless void may possess a past and a future when they return to the time stream, this does not necessarily mean that beings beyond space-time who exist outside the timeline altogether would possess a past or a future.
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It not necessarily meaning that is not enough. You must proof that it always and without exception is not the case if you want to make this a default assumption.

Rakih_Elyan said:
The concept of a "timeless void" still implies a space-time framework, albeit one where time is temporarily suspended.
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No? No reason a timeless void would require spacetime to exist.

Rakih_Elyan said:
In contrast, a being that exists outside the timeline would not be bound by the same limitations as those who exist within it.
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Which limitations in particular and why?

Rakih_Elyan said:
It's also important to note that possessing a past or a future is not the same as existing within the timeline. The existence of a past and a future implies the existence of time, but it does not necessarily mean that the being is subject to the same laws of causality as those within the timeline.
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I would engage the point, but, again, something not necessarily being the case earns you no points. You need to argue that it never means that or your argument doesn't hold weight. We will only add such an ability to the page if ALL characters that meet the requirement for that type have it, after all. That some could have it is just not what we are debating.

Rakih_Elyan said:
Therefore, it is still possible that a being beyond space-time may possess Type 2 Temporal Singularity Acausality and not be affected by changes to the timeline or abilities that manipulate fate or precognition, precisely because they exist outside the timeline altogether.
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Possible? Sure. But we won't add the ability just because it's possible. We will only add it if we know that it is the case for all of them.

Rakih_Elyan said:
The argument that Type 4 Acausality is mere speculation because it pertains to beings beyond space-time is flawed. This is because Type 4 Acausality is not a mere conjecture, but rather a well-established concept within various fictional universes. In these universes, Type 4 Acausality refers to characters who operate on a different system of cause and effect than regular causality, granting them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition [8].

Furthermore, the idea of different levels of reality and different laws of cause and effect is not entirely implausible. In fact, some physicists and philosophers suggest that our understanding of causality and the laws of physics may not necessarily apply to all levels of reality, particularly at the quantum level [3]. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that beings beyond space-time could operate under a different set of laws of cause and effect.

In summary, the argument that Type 4 Acausality for being beyond space-time is merely speculative is unfounded, as it is a well-established concept within fictional universes. Moreover, the idea of different levels of reality and different laws of cause and effect is not entirely far-fetched, as some theories in physics and philosophy suggest. Therefore, Type 4 Acausality should not be dismissed as mere speculation.

They are not even bound by the law of physics.
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Your entire argument again misses your burden of proof. It being plausibly possible for a character to have it isn't the issue. You have to proof that all characters with BDE Type 2 must have this.

Rakih_Elyan said:
It is worth noting, however, that many other philosophical and scientific arguments support the idea that causality and time are inextricably linked. For example, the five C's of historical thinking (change over time, causality, context, complexity, and contingency) are considered to be the shared foundations of the discipline of history, and causality is inherently tied to the concept of temporal sequence and progression [3]. Additionally, in empirical facts, an effect preceding a cause is generally considered to go against the laws of physics [1]. So type 4 is not even far fetched.
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In many fictions that will be the case, but we don't look for many, we look for all. If it only holds for fictions that subscribe to such a point of view, that means one first needs to proof they have that view. Meaning that getting the ability requires evidence beyond just the evidence required for getting BDE. So we can't list it as being included by default.

Rakih_Elyan said:
I don't know what point you are trying to makes here...
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There are three scenarios here.

1. You are beyond spacetime in a fashion that an attack within spacetime just can't hit you. That's an issue of range, not resistance. The attack just can't get to where you are.

2. You are beyond spacetime in a way that an attack within spacetime can get to you. Then there is little reason you would resist it. After all, you somehow managed for the character beyond spacetime to kinda interact with spacetime, by in some sense being within spacetime.

3. The attack itself can move beyond spacetime. There is no reason to assume that energy beyond spacetime would have any trouble affecting a character beyond spacetime.

And this stuff is well documented. Lots of fiction where characters beyond spacetime hit each other with meteors or whatever. Fiction isn't so logical that characters stop hitting each other with energy beams just due to being outside of spacetime.

So resistance as default assumption just doesn't work.
 
DontTalkDT said:
. You are beyond spacetime in a fashion that an attack within spacetime just can't hit you. That's an issue of range, not resistance. The attack just can't get to where you are.

2. You are beyond spacetime in a way that an attack within spacetime can get to you. Then there is little reason you would resist it. After all, you somehow managed for the character beyond spacetime to kinda interact with spacetime, by in some sense being within spacetime.

3. The attack itself can move beyond spacetime. There is no reason to assume that energy beyond spacetime would have any trouble affecting a character beyond spacetime.

And this stuff is well documented. Lots of fiction where characters beyond spacetime hit each other with meteors or whatever. Fiction isn't so logical that characters stop hitting each other with energy beams just due to being outside of spacetime.
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All of this need proof from the attacker perspective.
Anyways, @Qawsedf234 still agree to some of the points.
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
Anyways, @Qawsedf234 still agree to some of the points.
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Well, sorta. I said that same point are stuff we already included into higher dimensional beings so it would be redundant to include it in BDE and disagreed with the same speed point that DT did.

The only place where we differ is Point 1 and half of Point 4.
 
I mean
A given object or entity is referred to as being higher-dimensional when they exist as part of a system with a number of coordinates axes greater than our own, or in layman's terms, if they possess more than three dimensions.
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Type 2: Characters whose nature is defined by lacking spatiotemporal features and being superior to them in nature. These characters aren't necessarily superior to spacetime on every level, but just within the scope which they are shown.
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It's treated as being (if equal in base nature) as superior.
 
I will ask again.
 
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