Berserk: Some additions for Guts?

[SpookyShadow]

I decided to do a CRT for that, because it may be little bit ambiguous.

Resistance to Fear Manipulation/Empathic Manipulation? He faces Griffith without being under the influence of his aura. He is able to even directly try to attack him without any issue (worth to add he was literally dying at this point), and can face other God Hand members like Slan. Pretty consistent with the fact that he tried to slaughter Griffith during the Eclipse while half-dead, and the fact that he possesses Supernatural Willpower. (Griffith's aura induces maddening, fear and obedience.)

Also - addition to his causality resistance, Limited Resistance to Fate Manipulation? Causality in Berserk is pretty much the same as fate manipulation, as Idea of Evil controls the fate of humanity through the flow of causality. Worth to quote Flora on this one.

What do you guys think about it?

 

[ThisThingisReallyBroken]

Your scans for Griffith’s aura aren’t working

 

[SpookyShadow]

Click them few times, it is like that sometimes. If they really don't work no matter what, they are still on Griffith's profile, so it's safe to check them there.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I definitely agree with the first one. Not too sure about the second one, but it makes sense given the context, so I probably agree with it as well.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Agreed

 

[Shmooply]

Agree with the fear/empathic stuff, neutral on the causality stuff.

 

[Chariot190]

Agreed on first.
Second is true but it's limited.

 

[AngeronTheSkyHighAnger]

The first one is a given

The second is also viable to be used because causality and fate in berserk are always interchangeably used with each other but it is still limited like causality

 

[SpookyShadow]

Bump

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think everyone agrees so far, so all that's left is to get a staff member to evaluate this.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I'll ask someone

 

[Duedate8898]

I think the resistance should just be resistance to Empathy Manipulation, since looking the images up on the wiki doesn't really show any signs of fear manipulation, which should be covered under Empathic anyway I assume. Second one, while it makes sense by how things are described, this seems like his resistance to Causality already covers this aspect. Like if he can resist causality manipulation, it makes sense that Fate Manipulation already falls under it. But if not, then I say go ahead and add it in already.

 

[SpookyShadow]

The scans for fear was when he made Ganishka scared for his life with aura, and immediately made him go full-power. It's actually very clear fear manipulation.

 

[Duedate8898]

Don't really think that's how it looks. Griffith reaches out to him, then he says if the hand touches him he'll sacrifice all. That's not Ganiskha being scared because the aura inflicts fear upon those it reaches, that looks like Ganishka is just trying to avoid having Griffith touch him because he knows he loses if he gets touched.

Unless I'm looking at the wrong links?

 

[SpookyShadow]

I think he meant he will die if Griffith touches him. Here's a pretty clear example of Griffith being able to induce fear with his aura (and his aura is actually portrayed on this panel). Now, Guts has tried to murder actual Femto in battle (of course he failed). I think that could be some kind of resistance.
You could make an argument that "Griffith supresses his aura before Guts", but I don't think he has any empathy for him anymore, considering the fact he was completely deprived of his morality and attachements after becoming a God Hand, so I see no reason for him to supress his aura against any of his former companions.
.

 

[Duedate8898]

Being scared of someone due to them being more powerful than you isn't fear manipulation, which is what the scan looks to be pointing to.

 

[SpookyShadow]

"That thing... Was simply before me. But that was enough to leave me in pieces, disturbed and confused. Exhausted on my knees."

This is the exact same thing we give HXH character fear manipulation for. The aura is actually visible on this scan. And we have seen that Griffith's aura can influence someone's emotions in plenty of ways (some listed on his profile).

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I mean, a power gap is involved with like 99.9% of Fear Inducement examples out there. It's extremely rare for a stronger character to get scared of a weaker one in fiction.

 

[Duedate8898]

"That thing... Was simply before me. But that was enough to leave me in pieces, disturbed and confused. Exhausted on my knees."

This is the exact same thing we give HXH character fear manipulation for. The aura is actually visible on this scan. And we have seen that Griffith's aura can influence someone's emotions in plenty of ways (some listed on his profile).

And none of those ways is fear. And he also adds onto that,
"We aren't even on the same level."
It looks more like he noticed a power difference and that's why he's so scared.

 

[SpookyShadow]

But that was enough to leave me in pieces, disturbed and confused.

You want to tell me... Him being all sweaty with that look on his face is not evidence of being scared?
Yes, and he makes him aware of the power difference with his aura. The narrator mentions several times (and Griffith HIMSELF) that when he uses his supernatural aura, everyone "instinctively" or "intuitively" feels something. He mentions against Ganishka that his apostle instincts are going to wild because of his presence, and when he has appeared first against an entire army, everyone has sensed "intuitively that the one they have desired has come". I don't think it's necessary to mention that ability to awaken someone's emotional insticts is INDEED empathic manipulation.

It's worth to note, before the argument comes here, that Griffith CAN turn off his aura. It's evident when he talks with Rickert, and just gets bitchslapped. However, there are counterarguments. Of course he turned it off because he wanted to convince Rickert to stay on his side, as he is one of the most brilliant technological minds in the series so far, and we know about their past connections. And everyone under his aura's influence subconsciously knows about Griffith's ability to make them obey him, so I don't think that would work against Rickert. Would rather leave the boy with an impression that Griffith is desperate and wouldn't even hesistate to turn down his proposition.
When we see his aura that I'm talking about come into the game, it's when he battles. You could tell that he did somewhat "fight back" against Guts, but his supernatural luck and fate defiance has saved him, I guess.

 

[Duedate8898]

I didn't say he wasn't afraid. What I'm saying is that the aura itself doesn't induce fear as one of its effects, instead feeling the aura and sensing the difference in power is why fear is shown.

All of what you're describing perfectly fits with Empathic manipulation but not fear manipulation

 

[SpookyShadow]

I didn't say he wasn't afraid. What I'm saying is that the aura itself doesn't induce fear as one of its effects, instead feeling the aura and sensing the difference in power is why fear is shown.

Griffith directly says that's instinct, and with both instances, his aura is shown and Ganishka HIMSELF admits that it's his presence alone that made him know Griffith's not his league. He admits that twice. Exact same shit HXH characters do, they awake someone's negative emotions with their aura and let their opponent know who's the boss. He didn't even need to showcase his power to awake fear in him, and sure as hell he does not look intimidating enough to scare a horror like Ganishka.

All of what you're describing perfectly fits with Empathic manipulation but not fear manipulation

Fear is listed on the Empathic Manipulation site.

Fear is obviously an emotion, so that would be covered under "Empathic Manipulation", I guess.

 

[Duedate8898]

Griffith directly says that's instinct, and with both instances, his aura is shown and Ganishka HIMSELF admits that it's his presence alone that made him know Griffith's not his league. He admits that twice. Exact same shit HXH characters do, they awake someone's negative emotions with their aura and let their opponent know who's the boss. He didn't even need to showcase his power to awake fear in him, and sure as hell he does not look intimidating enough to scare a horror like Ganishka.

With hunter x hunter, it's specified that fear is just one of the effects that Nen can induce when using Ren. That's why they have it, instead of something like empathy manipulation or no form of manipulation at all. Ganishka himself specifies that the pair of them aren't on the same level, very clearly showing that there is a stark power difference and that's why he's scared.

Fear is listed on the Empathic Manipulation site.

Fear is obviously an emotion, so that would be covered under "Empathic Manipulation", I guess.

And I know that, hence why in my first post I said this:

I think the resistance should just be resistance to Empathy Manipulation, since looking the images up on the wiki doesn't really show any signs of fear manipulation, which should be covered under Empathic anyway I assume.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Fear Inducement is a subset of Empathic Manipulation anyway, so it doesn't matter much. We can just specify that the Empathic Manipulation Guts resists covers fear as well as infatuation.

 

[SpookyShadow]

With hunter x hunter, it's specified that fear is just one of the effects that Nen can induce when using Ren. That's why they have it, instead of something like empathy manipulation or no form of manipulation at all. Ganishka himself specifies that the pair of them aren't on the same level, very clearly showing that there is a stark power difference and that's why he's scared.

Griffith's spiritual silhouette and the classic cosmic aura are depicted when we see Ganishka describing his "mere presence". He's scared because Griffith literally makes him instinctively aware of the power difference with his aura, or just uses pretty simple fear inducement, though the former is implied more. That's exactly what fear manipulation is, he's not scared like a goat might be scared of a lion, Griffith himself mentions he awakens fear instincts within Ganishka. There's no other implied reason, and we all know that Griffith already has an aura that was, before this happened, mentioned to do exactly the same thing, but that time he wanted to awaken a different emotion within all those people.

 

[Duedate8898]

When fear manipulation was revised about a year ago, things like being scared due to feeling someone was more powerful than you stopped being a valid qualification for it.

But enough of this, if guts can resist the empathic manipulation of griffith then he should be fine against fear manipulation as well.

 

[SpookyShadow]

I have already mentioned why it's a supernatural use of fear manipulation, and what Miura implied in that scene was kinda obvious, otherwise he wouldn't show us the place being literally filled with his aura. But aight.

But enough of this, if guts can resist the empathic manipulation of griffith then he should be fine against fear manipulation as well.

Yeaah. I've just thought of what could be a counterargument, but I'm pretty sure a battle-mode Griffith, especially in his Femto self, does not have a reason to turn his aura off, especially after just being reborn into the physical world. Guts probably just survived this encounter because of his ability to defy fated death, or just the fact that Griffith wanted to spite him by not killing him. Him being able to resist fear aura would be heavily implied with... Guts' entire character. That would also apply to Skull Knight, who also can face battle mode Femto and attack him.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Bump

 

[Zencha9]

it's clearly willpower manip
i agree

 

[Hellbeast]

Sounds good

 

[SpookyShadow]

Bump

I think it should be fine to apply, but I'll ask some more staff members.

 

[SamanPatou]

I think everything makes sense.