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Ben 10 - Universe Size High 3-A Proposal (Accepted)

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

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Thanks to @Reiner and Guruguru for finding these sources and scans.

Proposal: Universes and dimensions of Ben 10 should be upgraded to High 3-A from 3-A. We can discuss what feats are affected by this in a different thread.

Reasoning: Novelizations of the episodes from a prominent show writer and a supplementary writer support the High 3-A proposal. A different writer's statement also supports the rating. To my recollection, nothing from the show contradicts the statements.

Source 1: Ben 10: War of the Worlds by Charlotte Fullerton​


Novelization of Alien Force War of the Worlds Arc.

ben10.fandom.com

Charlotte Fullerton

Charlotte Louise Fullerton is an American writer of television, novels, comic books and video games. Along with Matt Wayne, she was the Story Editor for Ben 10: Omniverse and the widow of the late producer and writer Dwayne McDuffie. Alone Together Unearthed Don't Fear the Repo Primus Escape...
ben10.fandom.com ben10.fandom.com

Link: https://archive.org/details/warofworlds0000full



"Space. The vast and beautiful cosmos fills the view in every direction with its infinite star systems, colorful nebulae, and strange worlds."

Source 2: Paradox: And, Plumbers' Helpers by Barry Hutchison​


Novelization of the Alien Force Plumbers' Helpers episode.

books.google.com

Paradox

This title contains two novelizations of 'Alien Force' episodes plus an 8-page colour section featuring action scenes from the stories. Join Ben, Gwen and Kevin in 'Paradox' when they confront a time-travelling creature, then turn to 'Plumbers' Helpers' to discover what happens when the gang are...
books.google.com

Link: https://archive.org/details/paradoxandplumbe0000unse



"With a final deafening scream, the alien creature was dragged into the van and sucked into the dark, empty, endless wasteland of the Null Void."

Source 3: Writer Statement​


Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20220508072713/https://twitter.com/rouleau1/status/1308964513887039488

"Quick question, how big is the Ben 10 Universe, is it infinite in size?"

"Yes. Infinite"

Source 4: Back with a Vengeance | Ben 10: Season 2, Episode 13​





Gwen in the Null Void: "This place looks like it goes on forever.

Max: "It does, so keep your eyes open."
 
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Greenshifter said:
Looks good. The Null Void's size shouldn't impact the main universe's size though.
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I don't know if it really matters but in the game Ben 10 vilgax attack null void is said to exist outside of known universe and in the show it is shown to be separated from the universe by dimensional barrier.
 
I'm not a staff members so me agreeing or disagreeing wouldn't matter here in the grander scheme of the things.
 
I think that this seems fine to apply, or should I call for Zamasu_Chan first?
 
I have some objections,

  1. Regarding the novelization, is there any proof that it is canon beyond the fact that it's written by a prominent writer? The Ben 10 verse is rather infamous for having writer statement's contradict themselves constantly (the best example is everything about Alien X) and this isn't even a statement. Charlie Fullerton is also not a 'prominent Ben 10 writer': she wrote only four Alien Force episodes and those ones aren't even the ones she novelized.
    1. Additionally, isn't it much more likely that she was using flowery language and/or purple prose instead of saying 'Space. The ben 10 universe is bigger than our own'?
  2. All the prior gripes apply. This one is even more likely to be purple prose.
  3. This is probably a fair point but should still be viewed with scrutiny due to the prior gripe with writer statements.
Overall idt this is enough proof to say that the Ben 10 universe is infinite in size because 2/3 points are very dubious.

Disregard this post if the novels are canon btw, I couldn't find anything online saying they were (didn't even know they existed until now, which is telling). We don't automatically use comic book material for ben 10 scaling, for instance, because many of them are flat-out noncanon. We should apply the same standard here.
 
Ayewale said:
I have some objections,

  1. Regarding the novelization, is there any proof that it is canon beyond the fact that it's written by a prominent writer? The Ben 10 verse is rather infamous for having writer statement's contradict themselves constantly (the best example is everything about Alien X) and this isn't even a statement. Charlie Fullerton is also not a 'prominent Ben 10 writer': she wrote only four Alien Force episodes and those ones aren't even the ones she novelized.
Click to expand...
Regarding it's not written by the same writer who wrote the episode, isn't it's the same case with the guides published by many franchise? Such as dragonBall. It's for least is written by the writer who has wrote episodes in all series of ben 10 but guide books on the other hand have no such origin for it being reliable but yet we treat as secondary canon because it is made for and has been written down under the speculation of what has been shown in canon. Not to mention these novels are as well based on canon episodes, why can't it be treated as secondary canon?
 
Reiner said:
Regarding it's not written by the same writer who wrote the episode, isn't it's the same case with the guides published by many franchise? Such as dragonBall. It's for least is written by the writer who has wrote episodes in all series of ben 10 but guide books on the other hand have no such origin for it being reliable but yet we treat as secondary canon because it is made for and has been written down under the speculation of what has been shown in canon. Not to mention these novels are as well based on canon episodes, why can't it be treated as secondary canon?
Click to expand...
Even then, we don't just automatically take content in those guides as gospel. For example, the naruto guides are generally treated with extreme scrutiny and only certain statements are taken into account, and that was made in collaboration with Kishimoto. The exact same goes for the Dragon Ball guides; just because they are considered official does not mean we automatically agree that they're correct.

Plus I'd argue a novelization is a step down from a guide. The latter was explicitly made as a resource for Ben 10 while the former is obscure supplementary material that could contain any amount of bullshit.
 
Ayewale said:
Even then, we don't just automatically take content in those guides as gospel. For example, the naruto guides are generally treated with extreme scrutiny and only certain statements are taken into account, and that was made in collaboration with Kishimoto. The exact same goes for the Dragon Ball guides; just because they are considered official does not mean we automatically agree that they're correct.

Plus I'd argue a novelization is a step down from a guide. The latter was explicitly made as a resource for Ben 10 while the former is obscure supplementary material that could contain any amount of bullshit.
Click to expand...
Sure enough, we don't take statements from those guide books automatically unless the check out is made that if they are contradicting the original material, incase it does or seems off from original primary takes the weight.

And it doesn't seem to contradict the primary source.
 
As per site guidelines:

"In addition, a tertiary canon will be allowed. The tertiary canon consists of official adaptations not overseen by the author, which do not modify or contradict source material."
 
Ayewale said:
Suggesting that the ben 10 universe is infinite sounds like a definite modification of source material. And describing Space as infinite still sounds a lot more like purplish language than something specific.
Click to expand...
Statements involving these words are always seems like one of them, if not 10/10 then 8/10 for sure.
But idk why this statement rather more feel like an explanation than flowery to me.
"Space. The vast and beautiful cosmos fills the view in every direction with its infinite star systems, colorful nebulae, and strange worlds."
These kinds of statements looks beautiful and so we mistake it for flowery, just like "forge of creation is the source of universes greatest power, it's where ideas become real"
 
To be fair, there is a scene in AF I think where the cast goes so far outside the universe in a ship that they can see it at a distance, which can be interpreted as evidence against this in its most likely take. But there are other takes that go around it, they don't make a point about the size of the universe there and there is apparently no more strong evidence against it, afaik. So I agree with the universe being infinite-sized.
 
Fair enough I suppose. Although we should probably list the universe as 'Potentially infinite' rather than definitely, mostly because 2/3 of the points could still eaisly be interpreted as flowery language/it's tertiary canon anyways.
 
Ayewale said:
Suggesting that the ben 10 universe is infinite sounds like a definite modification of source material. And describing Space as infinite still sounds a lot more like purplish language than something specific.
Click to expand...
Eficiente said:
To be fair, there is a scene in AF I think where the cast goes so far outside the universe in a ship that they can see it at a distance, which can be interpreted as evidence against this in its most likely take.
Click to expand...
Hmm. In combination, these issues seem to be serious problems that question the reliability of this upgrade.
 
Eficiente said:
To be fair, there is a scene in AF I think where the cast goes so far outside the universe in a ship that they can see it at a distance, which can be interpreted as evidence against this in its most likely take. But there are other takes that go around it, they don't make a point about the size of the universe there and there is apparently no more strong evidence against it, afaik. So I agree with the universe being infinite-sized.
Click to expand...
In this episode, the definition they used for "universe" was basically "a collection of galaxies in a localized point in 3-D space" The episode basically had multiple "universes" across the same 3-D space. No limit to 3-D space is given.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I don't see how the quantity of star systems can be taken as flowery language.
Click to expand...
Describing large expanses of space as ‘infinite’ is an extremely common writing technique because it’s a great, metaphorical way of conveying the scale of something from a human perspective. It’s the same as something being described as endless when it isn’t (i.e. oceans). It’s even more likely to be flowery because you’re not quoting dialogue, nor a scientific description, you’re literally citing prose. Pride that’s being used to describe a specific scene

Suggesting that a description like that actually hints to an infinite universe and isn’t flowery requires proof of the latter because the former makes much more sense. I was a bit less sure before but thinking more about it, it’s almost 100% flowery language.

I agree with the writer’s statement but suggesting that ‘the infinite expanse of space’ (which is so common in sci if as to be generic) automatically means the universe is 3-A is silly.
 
Ayewale said:
Fair enough I suppose. Although we should probably list the universe as 'Potentially infinite' rather than definitely, mostly because 2/3 of the points could still eaisly be interpreted as flowery language/it's tertiary canon anyways.
Click to expand...
I'd rather call it secondary canon as it is made by the writer who has wrote episodes in all series of Ben 10 which were canon, Now it's not like secondary canon's such as guide books must have to be over seen by particular writers, right? It can be over seen by any writer who has his influence consistent over the story of canon.
But even if we go over tertiary canon yet again it is not contradictory to the canon but rather supported by the show quotes
episode Back with a Vengeance
Gwen : feels like it goes on forever

Max : It does

It's a statement about nullvoid, can be said that Gwen was surprised by seeing the nullvoid and hence used hyperboles, but in typical depiction of hyperboles in fiction it's generally is ignored by the one who is listening and rather than replying to that hyperbole part, listener deals with a main issue because of which this hyperbole has been made. But here max dealt with that with it and said "it does", Max was aware of nullvoid and had so many information regarding with it and so reliable.
Not to mention it is supported by WOG as well which can be taken as he didn't made that statement Outta nowhere, it has been suggested in Ben 10 that universe is infact infinite.
 
Ayewale said:
Suggesting that a description like that actually hints to an infinite universe and isn’t flowery requires proof of the latter because the former makes much more sense. I was a bit less sure before but thinking more about it, it’s almost 100% flowery language.
Click to expand...
You have been changing your statements as this discussion goes on.
At first you were saying to disregard your statement if this comic is actually canon.
"Disregard this post if the novels are canon btw, I couldn't find anything online saying they were (didn't even know they existed until now, which is telling). "
Then you tend to be focused on argument that it is maybe flowery, proceeded to say that it is 100% fowery.
Anyway,
You are suggesting to prove that it's not flowery which is shouldn't be asked in the first place. rather a statement should be observed and matched with a Statement from the other settings to find if it's flowery or not.
This statement of infinite star system suggesting universe is infinite is as well supported by the statement of the novel Plumber helpers that nullvoid is endless, which is further supported by the episode Back with a vengeance which is further supported by the statement of WOG.
U suggesting that it's 100% flowery need proof, the burden is on you as the Statement is backed up and supported by other settings as well as outside of setting.
 
Also Universe can only be finite or infinite, there aren't so many options to suggest even in real world. So if the sources are suggesting the later don't know why former one is taken under consideration.
 
Zamasu_Chan said:
Can we not use flowery language as a “refute”? You can say that for every statement, making statements entirely pointless.
Click to expand...
True, that's what the case, asking to prove that universe is infinite when it has been suggested to be infinite seems like asking to measure the universe with scale to find out.
 
It seems like this can be applied given the combined initial and new evidence for this revision.
 
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