Ben 10 Speed-scaling takes an L.

[Greenshifter]

I don't think that we should start to completely mess up the current statistics scaling. Liger686, who is very knowledgeable about the franchise, made a massive effort to handle it properly, even if one of his calculated speed feats has now been deemed unreliable.

We just need to find a replacement speed feat to scale the affected characters from. That is all.

While I agree that Liger686 is very knowledgeable on Ben 10 and I appreciate his efforts very much, some stuff does need to be revised. Liger himself was even planning to revise Ben 10 to tier 6 but it seems like he left VS Battle wiki and Feat Directory wiki before he put it into motion. Part of the reason I joined is to make his profiles more reliable and finish what he started. Also Liger never got around to fully watching Omniverse and thus some feats from Omniverse could be considered information that Liger did not know about. For instance Armodrillo is rated as one of Ben's weaker aliens (Low-7B, likely 7A) yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMp61efGCkI Negative Armodrillo was able to hurt Gravattack who is rated as at least 7A, likely higher.

 

[Greenshifter]

Should I make a seperate revision thread to scale the OS to AF and beyond as to not derail this one too much? If so I would really appreciate some help from other Ben 10 fans since I do not know all time travel instances (and mostly how consistent the scaling is within them) by heart.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Andy seems to make sense.

@Greenshifter

A separate revision thread seems better, yes.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

There is Forge of Creation, Ben 10,000, pretty sure the Malware episodes also show 11 yo Ben fighting Malware who also fights Omniverse Ben in the future before his power started amping (his amps don't even show a change in speed, only power, so it wouldn't change anything) a past Vilgax, who is logically slower than OG Vilgax, keeping up with Omniverse characters who are obviously faster.

Thats basically saying scaling doesn't exist. No Zeref or Acnologia going all out displays anything on the level of Deus Sema, but they still scale bcause they are stated to be stronger. What exactly is the difference here? We know XLR8 is faster, he is stated to be faster, he is shown to be faster and the only feats for speed he has are either extremely casual or against beings/weapons relative to aliens who have been shown to react to him at times. The majority of the aliens even have feats reacting to the lasers from Vilgax's drones which have shown to reflect off of DH's crystal as well so there are most certainly other lightspeed feats.

We may separate the different series but we have multiple episodes with different series characters meeting up and being relative to each other (thank god for Greenshifter's thread).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but we would still need to scale the speeds from a reliable feat.

 

[Imaginym]

Does anyone know any reliable speed feats in Ben 10 we could use for this scaling, then?

 

[Greenshifter]

@Imaginym I recommend checking out this upgrade thread which is basically a replacement for this CRT if it gets accepted.

 

[Firestorm808]

Zs'Skayr, without his protective skin, has consistantly said that he can't survive sunlight. In Ben 10: Alien Force S03 "Ghost Town." Azmuth imprisons him in a satellite next to a sun in addition to projecting a weaker intensity of sunlight onto him.

The Sun Gun in Ben 10 S02 "Ghostfreaked Out" "projects a beam as bright as sunlight." Ghostfreak referring to it as "daylight at night." The weapon has no effect on him in a host body.

Sunlight is a form of ultra-violet radiation. Human skin resists some of the ultra-violet rays. Radiation travels at the speed of light.

Brightness is an attribute of visual Perception in which a source appears to be radiating or reflecting light.[1] In other words, brightness is the perception elicited by the luminance of a visual target. It is not necessarily proportional to luminance. This is a subjective attribute/property of an object being observed and one of the color appearance parameters of color appearance models. Brightness refers to an absolute term and should not be confused with Lightness.

Yes, the gun fires light.

 

[Ayewale]

How does that prove the gun fires light again?

 

[Firestorm808]

Brightness is the subjective term for Luminance

Luminance is a photometric measure of the luminous intensity per unit area of light travelling in a give direction. It describes the amount of light that passes through, is emitted from, or is reflected from a particular area, and falls within a given solid angle.

If the gun "projects a beam as bright as sunlight," then the beam is composed of photons with an intensity comparable to the sun, which is light speed.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to make sense.

 

[Ayewale]

That's indirectly saying that the gun is firing a pure beam of light, which it is not. Even with the scientific explanation, all you've done is say that 'the gun's beam was as bright as sunlight, therefore the gun's beam is as fast as sunlight'/

 

[Andytrenom]

We honestly might be looking into this too deep. You're targetting a guy whose weakness is light and that light just needs to be bright enough to defeat him, not possess special properties distinct from usual light. It's really not a stretch to say this was light but amped to a great degree

Usually we are dealing with things like lasers in a much different context than what normal light would be useful in, such as replacement for bullets, damage dealing attacks etc, so it makes semse to assume a beam resembling light won't actually be or function like light, I'm not sure a superadvanced torch meant to be used against someone weak to light calls for the same amount of suspicion

 

[Davidsteel1]

Maybe I'm failing to understand something, but y is the sun guns light beam being questioned?

Considering the only function it serves is to release a beam of light as bright as the sun it is nothing more than a glorified flashlight. I'm of the impression that we treat the light flashlights release as being SOL.

As far as I'm concerned the OP's criticism that it isn't described as releasing light and instead releases a "beam" is based solely on semantics. Especially when u consider that a beam is literally defined as a ray of light.

Ghost Freak shows an explicit weakness to sun light, the sun gun does nothing but fire a bright light, ergo the beam from the sun gun is light speed.

 

[Andytrenom]

>Especially when u consider that a beam is literally defined as a ray of light.

Well, a collection of rays but that's pure semantics on my part

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Andy. We can probably continue to scale from this speed feat.

 

[Andytrenom]

Well, my comment only relates to the legitimacy of the gun's speed. The consistency of the rating is an entirely separate matter

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Ayewale]

If it was just a glorified flashlight, why didn't they use a literal flashlight?

 

[Firestorm808]

A regular flashlight is not bright as the sun.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

^Literally this. Without his covering, Z'Sskayr's sole weakness is sunlight due to its intensity with every other light never doing a thing to him aside from guns that are stated to be like sunlight.

 

[Antvasima]

A regular flashlight is not bright as the sun.

Agreed.

 

[Ayewale]

^Literally this. Without his covering, Z'Sskayr's sole weakness is sunlight due to its intensity with every other light never doing a thing to him aside from guns that are stated to be like sunlight.

What? Regular lights have been seen hurting Z'Skayr before. In the first episode he appeared in, every single room he was in was very dark and was absent of all light, natural or otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, there should logically be different degrees of harm to him depending on the strength of the light.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

What regular lights hurt him exactly? Because the ones all over Vilgaxia did nothing to him, the lights in the space station were the same etc etc.

 

[Ayewale]

Z'Skayr gets burnt badly by even the faintest hint of sunlight, at least weaker than that of a decent flashlight. The ones in Vilgaxia not hurting him could be chalked up to the writers being dumb, since in the OS it's established pretty clearly that he can't function to any source of light.

 

[Firestorm808]

Regular room lighting doesn't harm them, otherwise people wouldn't be able to see him in general. There is a range of light intensity that pains him, lightly burns him, and being ripped into atoms. His cloak offers some resistance.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ben 10 - Ghostfreak escapes from The Omnitrix


Zs'Skayr is Destroyed - Ben 10 S03E12 Don't Be Afraid of the Dark.


Vilgax Frees Zs'Skayr - Ben 10 Alien Force S03E10 Ghost Town 1080p


Omniverse Destroying the Portal Ben 10 Cartoon Network


Ben 10 Omniverse Se5 - Ep08 The Vampire Strikes Back - Screen 10

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So I got a question. In this XLR8 is able to lift the Waybad right before she fires her laser. Not only was he able to do that but if she was truly faster than him, see their ratings, wouldn't she just kick him?

 

[Ayewale]

Regular room lighting doesn't harm them, otherwise people wouldn't be able to see him in general. There is a range of light intensity that pains him, lightly burns him, and being ripped into atoms. His cloak offers some resistance.

If Regular room lighting wouldn't hurt him, then why would the lightest hint of sunlight hurt him in that same case? Do we just chalk it up to writing inconsistency?

 

[Greenshifter]

So I got a question. In this XLR8 is able to lift the Waybad right before she fires her laser. Not only was he able to do that but if she was truly faster than him, see their ratings, wouldn't she just kick him?

The speed rating from Way Big and co comes from reaction to the Conquest Ray, Emperor Milleous never used the conquest Ray in that episode and even states he still has a conquest Ray after his ship was destroyed...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So I got a question. In this XLR8 is able to lift the Waybad right before she fires her laser. Not only was he able to do that but if she was truly faster than him, see their ratings, wouldn't she just kick him?

The speed rating from Way Big and co comes from reaction to the Conquest Ray, Emperor Milleous never used the conquest Ray in that episode and even states he still has a conquest Ray after his ship was destroyed...

I mean the characters might get upgraded.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we do here? Let the statistics remain as they are?

 

[Firestorm808]

Let's see how the other thread turn out first.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.