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- #81
Exactly.Lets Not Degrade This thread anymore
I hope Eficiente shows the evidence against it
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Ben 10 - Low 2-C Alien X proposal
- Thread starter Reiner04
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- #83
Oh, don't talkdt, yes it was good and usefull.
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It's a conclusion, not an assumption.
These 2 episodes with the time bomb are pretty confusing but they sorta make sense to me now, it's just very difficult to explain under VSBW's standards.
Also don't know how you'd conclude Ben Prime's timeline is 2-B or 2-A, the entire timestream is, not a single timeline. Also there's a statement for infinitely long timelines that Reiner has on his channel but he probably doesn't realize it. There being an end of time would be problematic for this but only on VSBW and the end of time statement is based on WoG but I might use it anyways since it makes sense.
If there was a consensus in the first place on the Null Void then it'd be based on my reasoning that it serves as a central place between Rex's universe and Ben's universe and that it'd be very weird for Caesar to send alpha to some supposedly empty place inside another universe, let alone finding such a place.
We settled for a lower regen eventually. black hole wasn't black holey enough.
Also he says those dimensions aren't always in sync through time, further supporting he's just talking about timelines.
Just address my Null Void and Legerdomain arguments (and answer my questions), what you wrote down there only makes it more confusing and doesn't really target my position.
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- #85
It obviously can have its own timestream, infact it does have one, point is about it's branching off as in parallel with the main dimension/sub timeline of the entire universe. It is channeled by one time dimension of the entire universe. That's how specific events relating to particular main dimension with particular branch of the legerdomain timestream do not get confused with other one, and same with legerdomain branching leading to branching off of main dimension.
It doesn't really go against your point of it having its own timestream and space time continuum. But just channeled with one time dimension to keep things in parallel with particular events concerning particular branch dimensions with each other.
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- #86
It should I guess, it existed with time itself or may far before since beginning, may alpha runes just took forms for timelines and in reality an abstract object. Can't say for sure
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Opening a portal from prime timeline in Ben's universe means you end up in the main timeline of Legerdomain, problem solved. Also we don't even have confirmation that those characters from Legerdomain are the ones we see in the main timeline. If the events regarding Dagon work despite being a completely separate universe, then I don't see why Legerdomain can't work like that as well.
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- #88
And hence what I already stated? They do not get confused with other branches thing?
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I have it as an abstract object that would share the same power source across it's emanations if it branches. But whether or not it branches depends on where you got that info for the map of infinity from.
So you are fine with it being a completely seperate realm outside of the entire timestream (and Ben's universe)?
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Oh wait I just found the best argument yet. Charmcaster opened a portal to Dagon's universe and instead of Dagon using this portal to escape being sealed, he stayed put. Meaning that Legerdomain wouldn't be inside the universe that Dagon is trying to conquer.
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- #92
It is outside of Ben's dimension, yet it is in parallel with it, channeled by one time dimension, not contradicting Kevin's or other ppl statements. And goes with it being inside an one all encompassing timeline with yet being in the entire universe, being parallel causes all branch timeline can open a portal to right legerdomain. That's here I'm.
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She did? I remember her offering the souls, not that she opened a portal for dagon to escape. Their are already ppl who can travel to drago's dimension and can come outside, flame circle ppls, Ben, vilgax, dragon's puppet monsters or something like that, what I know is dagon was specifically sealed by that wall, not that dimension itself.
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- #94
Greenshifter (I don't know how to tag here like others do so..), my point of it being sub timelines being in the same entire universe yet being entire seprate spacetime without contradicting Kevin's statement and Gwen statement from omniverse (I'll upload that video soon where Gwen suggested that legerdomain is part of the entire universe) do not go against your point, infact either it'll be entire seprate timestream or sub timelines it'll be same in terms of scaling, it's not go against your point in terms of scaling or basis of it being seprate timestream. Yet support my point.
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I'll say that what I am proposing "contradicts" Kevin's and Gwen's statement. Since they're talking about something that is outside of the universe, similar to that one universe with different physics. The parallel dimension/timestream within 1 universe fix is an unnecessary one and doesn't address any of the issues I had/have with it in the first place.
She had to open a portal for the soul offerings duh. They use spatial phasing to do that, Dagon's spatial phasing likely doesn't work because of the seal. The seal also needs to be very big to prevent Dagon from going to Ben's universe.
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I'll respond in few hours
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For those who have a hard time following, this is what I'm proposing (not sure on the exact size of Legerdomain and the Null Void though), anything else is more contradictory than this (don't mind the position of the higher dimensions though):
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- #98
They're talking about something outside of the universe isn't something taken inherently when the point of discussion is on it with given statements by characters on more than one of these kinds of alternate dimensions, also legerdomain branches have to be parallel with the right branch of main dimension to prevent from confusing the timeline or timestream. Also parallel dimensions with different physical features can exist within the same universe, it is necessary as per given statements and how timelines should be prevented from confusing from each other supports it while nothing contradicting.
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- #99
Gwen said they are walking around in stairs in a parallel dimensions, is that dagon can't walk is the problem? Dagon have size manipulation ability and his essence is power. Also Ben and vilgax and George were able to walk straight into dagon dimension while dagon do not outside.
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- #100
Nullvoid size has been upgraded to infinite so..
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It was never stated or implied to be a central place between both the universe.They wouldn't jump across 2 universe to reach a 3rd one. They would directly go from one universe to another as was the case there .Paradox travels from one universe to another without going to a 3rd one. Dimension 23 azmuth sent Ben 23 directly to Ben Prime.Holiday's statement regarding this also explains infinte dimensions(referring to null void ) can exist across the multiverse. I said this because Zamasu_chan said servantis knew about Ben recreating the universe through clairvoyance ( i guess ).
Yes
It's based on the working of the chronosapien time bomb :
The Chronosapien Time Bomb destroyed the timestream by changing ben prime's past ,explained by paradox.It changed the course of events and ben prime didn't received the omnitrix.The Nexus for branching of the said timestream in Ben 10 being Ben recieving the omnitrix as stated the paradox.
So my point being ,if we destroy ben prime's timeline it would destroy the entire multiverse as ben prime's past was the nexus point for other timelines.However the events of dagon and george happened way before ben was born and alternate dimension did exist even at that time implying them be a part of the universe and branching to other universe after the nexus (i.e ben prime receiving the omnitrix).
This was the reason i said prime timeline to be 2-B (possibly 2-A because we have 2-A MCU despite branching of the sacred timeline as seen in loki ) but not a typical 2-B according to the standards ig.
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Happens in every major character's CRT. Not a big issue. The thread's arguments become a colossal mess for every new reader
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I’ll respond tomorrow probably
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- #106
Well then to summarise my point.
- Entire universe = collection of sub-timelines or sub spacetime continuum such as (main dimension + nullvoid)
- Branching off of any sub spacetime continuum, either of nullvoid or of main dimension can lead to branching of other dimensions of the entire universe, so that each branch of entire universe can have all sub-timelines parallel to each other. It will protect sub-timelines to get confused about which specific said dimension events are concern with which specific sub-timelines because they will be parallel to each other.
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You could believe that in a verse where you only know "the universe and pocket realities of unknown size themselves inside things in the universe", you wouldn't think there is anything other than the universe in the sense of (full on) universes. And Kevin was wrong. Kevin is even wrong in your take as everything the Nullvoid is goes against Kevin saying that, depending on interpretation, you grab in your interpretation and claim there is only that.
This is wrong for some reasons, it doesn't matter how there are no more cases of it because it's correct to call it universe, is it a space? Yes, is it the size of a universe? Calling it a universe already does that and other sources claim it to be infinite, so it's at least the size of the universe. No more is needed. The reasoning you give is hard to look at because it does nothing against the basic reasons needed to call it a universe. Your take that he means Ben's universe and not the Nullvoid is on the basis that the Nullvoid is Ben's universe, which is what you try to prove, so with that premise already proven in your mind you see this case that would otherwise only mean "the Nullvoid is a universe" and have it mean something else, your logic is just bad.
I didn't say you used it as proof, just used it, which you did, which you shouldn't have because it's bad. Because it's paradoxical/self-contradictory, people argue via logic, reason and standards, a misguided person would use a self-contradictory logic as an example of what he tries to say for his own unrelated topic. So again, there is no need and you shouldn't use use other verses, what you say needs to stand on its own, and if it sounds wrong then let it be that if that's what you're claiming. I was clear before and I am even more clear here.
I don't remember that and you don't link it but even what you say is wrong, if regular universes use the same Nullvoid then what about it, iif you draw 2 red lines and a green one, put toys in them, make the toys in the red lines toss some toys in the green line, and call each line a universe then you have the same that's going on here; More than 1 universe using the same other universe for a purpose, it doesn't mean at all that the Nullvoid needs to be connected to those universes that use it because that's a nonsensical conclusion, it has nothing to do with the information you're given.
This is pretty meaningless. A pocket dimension can be anything, a dimension that's only inside something of a limited size (in a universe or anywhere), or a limited-sized access to any dimension that can be of whatever size and importance, it's not like it has a strict meaning. Here, it means the latter given the evidence for it. "Pocket" comes from how handy it is the access for it, not the dimension being integrated into the universe.
This is another clear showing of your bias through a conclusion that has nothing to do with the information you're given, anyone can create anything, it doesn't mean it has to always be part of the creator's universe, and in this case we're talking about another dimension. This is information that means nothing, not information in your favor. This is very basic.
The lack of logic here is abysmally childish, unfortunately. They made the conection between the universe and the Nullvoid by tossing beings in them, this alone forces them to look up for the Nullvoid because that is the moral and competent thing to do to safeguard the universe. If you disagree with the logic behind this then, well, you should preferably ask for a second opinion to an adult, which I say for constructivity's sake.
You should have been able to see, I meant the in-universe rules of a universe/timeline having 2 timelines in it and still being called a universe.
I will see if I continue with this.
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- #108
your interpretation is based of assumption that Kevin may has thought of "the universe and null void" as an universe in the sense of full on universes, which is wrong, according to context where Kevin can see other universes, he could have thought that another universe is just like null void, after all if your premise is that both are entirely seprate universes then either he see more of it, it wouldn't be surprise for him, he has already seen many dimensions after all, but no. And an "occam's razer fallacy", the interpretation that directly leads through this statement is nullvoid is the part of the universe, not another universe in the entirety, while your point is moving around the world. It shows credibility of my claim in the fictional setting.
It is wrong, just because something can be called something and as it is, as I have already explained that nullvoid doesn't fit in our typical definition of the universe, yet, context and how things has been addressed throughout the series defines how a statement of particular scenes should be taken, nullvoid neither it has been ever treated or said to be a universe but just prison, your reason to stand that it can be called so it should be, not the matter that what something can be called from the perspective of real world interpretation but how fictional setting has been doing it since start and it has never called, nor treated like one. And in the given normal circumstances nullvoid has been addressed unusally is where it looks entirely forced. There are many ways to use the word "universe", in economics measured population can be called universe, that's not the point. Your point has less credibility in terms of show perspective.
In short, your premise that between the two accepted terms defining the nullvoid which are dimension and universe, later one should be taken but the later one hasn't been supported as per the narrative and never been treated like one and will infact be unusual to use it. If it may any other franchise than it may have some base as per they may treat it like what you're suggesting, but it's not credible in here, no support from franchise in literal, neither it stands on typical definition of the universe from real world. And yet you are tending to it?
I don't think I get what you are saying, my point is that each timeline has it's own nullvoid, given that they all branched from one, if they will not be in parallel and divide with the branching of one of those dimensions then there will eventually will be the universe which do not have its own nullvoid or events from particular nullvoid that concerned with particular dimension can be get confused with others
Aside from it, it's Preety meaningful, given the situation such as " if the said character from said universe is said to create a pocket dimension which has it's own spacetime " then it's very common to think that it's created in that said universe despite being disconnected from the spacetime of the universe. And your point to stand on that it's seprate universe outside of the main dimension entirely? Because it has it's own spacetime? I guess characters can easily create their spacetime dimension in the universe, and given that it is created by galvans, it'll be taken as created in the universe unless proven otherwise, your point do not have anything logical to stand on.
It is as I explained above? And proof to othervise?
Your argument at this point feels more like a forced argument rather than argument that gets created eventually while dealing with certain topic unlike your all previous arguments on other evidences.
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- #109
Your entire point is on "self built" assumption that it has to be outside the universe while not being supported in the series?
Given that created by galvans (a beings from Ben universe), has evidence to be a part of the universe.
No contradiction? Only supports.
Given that created by galvans (a beings from Ben universe), has evidence to be a part of the universe.
No contradiction? Only supports.
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Also, I am sure that if I have tried to argue that nullvoid is universal in size because servantis there was referring to nullvoid, rather than using the novel as a proof then there would have been other ppl teaching and explaining me things I am explaining right now. Lmfao
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exactly
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It's not a job of a law enforcement agency such as plumbers to have moral obligations of overseeing criminals they dump because they are not judges ,that specific job is of Incarcecon with one of its branches in null void .Moreover it wasn't the job of Servantis's Base to look after criminals ,his Base existed more like plumber's base on Earth but having authority over null void to safeguard and maintain peace across the galaxy as stated by rook .Wouldn't it be weird for first band of plumbers to have a base first in a separate universe rather than their universe ?
ok .
The evidence inclines it more towards being a part of universe ,rather than a self assumption of it being outside the universe as built by the fandom .Anur System (a solar system in Milky way galaxy ) also girds the null void from regular space.
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Nice
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Uh does this make sense with an infinite realm? If so I concede on the Null Void even though it's really weird.
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I guess it does, establishing a connection between infinite realms can be done through many unknown means and can sometimes makes less sense to our perception.
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I mean if it's just a portal it wouldn't matter, since the portal can lead to a place outside of the universe. I'm getting the implication that the Null Void itself is girded by the Anur System though.
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- #117
Uh nah, nullvoid is an alternate dimension and their is no mention of any kind of portal, it's just that anur system establish connection or tie nullvoid with our regular space or universe anything detailed can just be assumed so no point in thinking that.
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Ig, maybe there's some folding of infinite 3D into 4D space shenanigans going on, they talk about below the surface of perception after all.
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- #119
Given that anur system is itself a mystery in Ben 10.
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Your "confusion" point doesn't matter, my interpretation doesn't add timeline confusion.
Your interpretation contradicts:
1) The central role of Legerdomain in the multiverse, several lifeforms would also exist without life-force existing in those other universes considering Legerdomain got created together with Ben's universe by the Contumelia under your interpretation.
2) Ben saying he went to alternate universes like Rex's before.
3) Dagon being sealed and unable to enter Ben's universe.
I mean the seal specifically effects Dagon it seems but you'd think if someone makes a portal through which he can send souls then he can also go through it himself despite the seal, so him not going through it must mean that Legerdomain isn't inside of Ben's universe.
I meant the higher-D size of those realms.
It was implied to be sort of this place that wasn't part of Ben's universe nor Rex's universe, but nvm now Ig. Also Holiday would have been referring to Ben's universe and Rex's universe, not the Null Void likely.
Chain reaction time bomb? Oof. You know that might actually make sense and would give Ben Prime a central role in the cosmology which is pretty dope. But how are No Watch Ben and Gwen 10 a thing then if the branching only starts when Ben Prime gets the Omnitrix, retroactive effect? Also why is Clockwork necessary if No Watch Ben already successfully rebooted the timestream?
Dagon's universe is an alternate universe created with a different Annihilargh by the Contumelia (or something else), it has it's own timestream.
You're treating Rex's universe as part of what the Annihilargh created, classic mistake. But yes I get what you mean now. Ben 10 functions more like DC, where every "earth" has infinite timelines.
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