Ben 10 - Low 2-C Alien X proposal

[Reiner04]

Also, Nullvoid (a said alternate dimension) was introduced in Ben 10 classic when the concept of multiverse wasn't yet introduced and even after multiverse was introduced in the next series yet it was never said or specified that nullvoid exist outside of the universe, leaving no reason to assume so unless stated otherwise. Just like how room of spirit and time in dragonball was introduced in DBZ when the concept of other universes was yet to introduce, in the DBZ it is said that room of spirit and time exist outside of the dimension Goku and other resides and is separated by dimensional barrier yet it is considered the part of universe 7, even though it is never stated but it's just that multiverse wasn't introduced at this point of time when ROSAT is introduced, so there is no point in thinking that, neither when multiverse was introduced it is ever specified to be outside of universe, so yeah.
On the other hand nullvoid have evidences that it exist in the universe and it was introduced before the multiverse was established, well far before actually, so I guess we are there already.

 

[Reiner04]

Bump?

 

[Eficiente]

Despite spending his half of the life in null void and already knowing that it's an alternate dimension, Kevin in the forge of creation said " I thought the universe is everything", when he seen other universes

That doesn't really mean anything.

Servantis while being in the nullvoid said "no one will be able to bring Ben Tennyson back, not in this universe or any other", suggesting that nullvoid is the part of the universe as an whole.

That is simply he calling the Nullvoid a universe, not that it is part of Ben's universe.

Also plumbers who were created to maintain peace in the universe also maintains the nullvoid, proving it further.


From 9:53.

Of course they do, they use it as a prison to toss beings there from their universe, they need to have it as a responsibility because of it.

There is no evidence that null void is not in the same universe/timeline. There can be more than one spacetime continuum in a timeline. Best example is Dragonball.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zen'ō.

The wonky way DB has things working is, like all wonky things, exceptions, not the norm. Spacetime continuum and timeline are synonyms, you can't just use another verse to claim otherwise here because that's ridiculous. Nullvoid is in another dimension, dimension in this context means "reality of unknown size" as fiction often has it, thereby it isn't in the same universe, its page in the Ben 10 wiki even quickly links to a source stating it's not in the same timeline.

Not to mention each timelines are branches off from primetimeline must also have their own nullvoid if they use it to imprison criminals. Just like this alternate future timeline, which confirms that nullvoid despite being seprate spacetime continuum (sub timelines) is a part of all encompassing timeline.

Who cares, the Nullvoid could be branching off timelines in its own as universes do or already have them all. You have no link for that last claim but it doesn't mean anything, if they all use it then all have one.

In dragonBall even universe 7 has shown to contain more than one spacetime continuum which is written on vs battle page clearly.
The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.

Also nullvoid has more better and good evidence to be separate spacetime continuum than of room of spirit and time in dragonBall. So ig it works. Also 2c universe/timeline is possible.

The evidence you use for this is beyond bad, and stop using example for other verses, your stuff needs to hold up on its own regardless of how nonsensical the rules are.

Also, Nullvoid (a said alternate dimension) was introduced in Ben 10 classic when the concept of multiverse wasn't yet introduced

This point is pathetic, it doesn't mean anything and when something doesn't mean anything you don't use it as a point,that builds up bias. It was a dimension of unknown size at the time.

and even after multiverse was introduced in the next series yet it was never said or specified that nullvoid exist outside of the universe, leaving no reason to assume so unless stated otherwise.

It is already known by the fact that it's another dimension, unless one were to assume it's a pocket dimension inside the universe, it doesn't matter.

All your arguments are very bad, people here not having been able to reply on their own on what's wrong with them is something to improve upon.

 

[Reiner04]

That doesn't really mean anything

Reason? It clearly means that Kevin wasn't aware of if there can be anything more than the universe despite knowing nullvoid is an alternate dimension.

That is simply he calling the Nullvoid a universe, not that it is part of Ben's universe

Well, it'll be where I seriously disagree, infact in the entire Ben 10, it hasn't been even for a single moment that anyone has ever called nullvoid a universe. Nullvoid is just treated as prison and an pocket dimension in for universes worst criminals, u don't call jail inside the police station as an another police station, neither u call a kitchen a "house", nullvoid is specifically used for the universe as an jail just like kitchen used for house, not that it's universe. You are going outside of entire setting of ben 10 just to force a argument that it has been called a "universe".

The wonky way DB has things working is, like all wonky things, exceptions, not the norm. Spacetime continuum and timeline are synonyms, you can't just use another verse to claim otherwise here because that's ridiculous. Nullvoid is in another dimension, dimension in this context means "reality of unknown size" as fiction often has it, thereby it isn't in the same universe, its page in the Ben 10 wiki even quickly links to

Rather than using db as a proof, I am providing a view of how a single timeline can have more than one spacetime continuum, I have already proved that nullvoid is an alternate dimension and is a part of universe, also it is clearly possible to have more than one spacetime continuum in the single universe

Who cares, the Nullvoid could be branching off timelines in its own as universes do or already have them all. You have no link for that last claim but it doesn't mean anything, if they all use it then all have one

Didn't get it, if the alien force version of ben has it's timeline where he didn't get the ultimatrix than he have different future than the ultimate one, yet they both using the nullvoid and infact the plumber bases would have been on the same place in nullvoid for both of them. And it's branching off with a main timeline proving that affecting Ben's dimension also affects nullvoid.

The evidence you use for this is beyond bad, and stop using example for other verses, your stuff needs to hold up on its own regardless of how nonsensical the rules are

It does.

It is already known by the fact that it's another dimension, unless one were to assume it's a pocket dimension inside the universe, it doesn't matter.

It is pocket dimension, just a big pocket.

 

[Reiner04]

If the pocket dimension is what you want then in the episode "Ben 10 alien force voided", nullvoid is called pocket dimension.

And also created by Galvans, giving it more obvious reason as of why it's a part of the universe.

 

[Reiner04]

I don't think there is any strong argument against this point have left if it's all you have to say. Then I'll take rest now as I am done with providing enough evidence until I see a good argument.

 

[Reiner04]

If you're suggesting that nullvoid is branching off indipendent to the main dimension subtimeline then it must have been very usual that counterparts characters of different universes have met in the nullvoid or on the plumber bases or it must have been impossible to find which nullvoid is the one at which activities related to specific universe is being done. But never happened.

 

[Aachintya31]

That is simply he calling the Nullvoid a universe, not that it is part of Ben's universe.Of course they do, they use it as a prison to toss beings there from their universe, they need to have it as a responsibility because of it.

Servantis as a plumber had the mission to safeguard and promote the public well being throughout the galaxy ,indicating it to be a part of the universe.Why would they have responsibility even if they do dump criminals in another universe ?

unless one were to assume it's a pocket dimension inside the universe, it doesn't matter.

Why doesn't it matter? A separate spacetime infinite in size within a universe should qualify as 2-C
In ben 10 we do have multiple dimensions within the same universe
For example : we have the Ledgerdomain which also exists within the galaxy in an alternate dimension within the same universe. Paradox hid the pieces himself across the galaxy Ledgerdomain being one of them.

The evidence you use for this is beyond bad, and stop using example for other verses, your stuff needs to hold up on its own regardless of how nonsensical the rules are.

So you agree according to vsbw rules even if you dont feel it personally for being nonsense ??

 

[Aachintya31]

I hope other members could give their input as well.

 

[Reiner04]

Servantis as a plumber had the mission to safeguard and promote the public well being throughout the galaxy ,indicating it to be a part of the universe.Why would they have responsibility even if they do dump criminals in another universe ?

Why doesn't it matter? A separate spacetime infinite in size within a universe should qualify as 2-C
In ben 10 we do have multiple dimensions within the same universe
For example : we have the Ledgerdomain which also exists within the galaxy in an alternate dimension within the same universe. Paradox hid the pieces himself across the galaxy Ledgerdomain being one of them.

So you agree according to vsbw rules even if you dont feel it personally for being nonsense ??

Aside from it, nullvoid neither stands on our typical definition of the universe except of it's size, like it's do not contain any galaxy, star, planets, etc. It's look too empty that even caesar mentioned that thing about it. It's just have big chunk rocks and wastelands floating all around continuously, a space which is used for just dumping purpose. It'll be too vague to call a dimensions like this a universe, although it never called one or treated like one but yet if suggested it's not entirely out of consideration as it can exist as per inflationary theory that states different shapes of calabi yau manifold defines physical features of the universe, there can be a universe without time and space as well and if we go to type 4, an abstract mathematical consisting multiverse, then there is just abundance of kinds of universe, maybe somewhere there can be a universe where our mathematics rules like of plus, minus, divide do not apply. But yet in fiction it's highly unlikely to consider such dimensions or address such dimensions as universes in normal circumstances as in servantis was, but again not that it has ever been called/address or treated as one. Just calling such a thing an dimension is fine.

 

[Greenshifter]

The Null Void isn't in the same universe/dimension/timeline, so it didn't get affected.

If it didn't destroyed 2 spacetime continuum in the first place then there is a clear issue in the premise.

"Extradimension" is as misused in fiction as the word "Dimension", it just means it's a dimension outside Ben's "dimension"/universe.

Yes, you're the one who said it's in the universe. Can you show all the evidence of it? The evidence against it is way too abundant.

I agree with everything Eficiente stated here although I don't know the current consensus on the "destroying 2 universes = 2-C with or without timeline" proposal.

Despite spending his half of the life in null void and already knowing that it's an alternate dimension, Kevin in the forge of creation said " I thought the universe is everything", when he seen other universes

Servantis while being in the nullvoid said "no one will be able to bring Ben Tennyson back, not in this universe or any other", suggesting that nullvoid is the part of the universe as an whole.

Also plumbers who were created to maintain peace in the universe also maintains the nullvoid, proving it further.


From 9:53.

Kevin also thought Legerdomain is part of the universe yet it shouldn't be since it has a central role in the multiverse considering even Dagon is bound by the "way of magic" established by the alpha rune.
The Servantis scan is a good one to support your point since I personally don't think he calls the Null Void a universe here. That said it may be uncareful wording on his part.
The Plumbers maintain the Null Void because they are the ones who dump the universe's worst criminals there.

people here not having been able to reply on their own on what's wrong with them is something to improve upon.

I'm busy. Also most Ben 10 fans left VSBW or are very unactive.

 

[Reiner04]

Kevin also thought Legerdomain is part of the universe yet it shouldn't be since it has a central role in the multiverse considering even Dagon is bound by the "way of magic" established by the alpha rune.

Because legerdomain is the part of the universe. It has been evident throughout the series, in the episode were the magic happens we have already seen that legerdomain is where one piece of map of infinity was hidden which was said to be done by Paradox throughout the universe. Proceeding to in the episode "the third's time bezel" Gwen stated she has already searched for Kevin's car throughout the universe but didn't find it on which Kevin said "once more", then Gwen searched once again and found it in a legerdomain. Also if legerdomain have to be one in the entire multiverse then it's obvious that there will be many charmcaster ruling one realm as we know that charmcaster in the UA is different than charmcaster in the OV because UA timeline has already branched off to the UA version Ben 10000. Not to mention there must have been way more branching than I am suggesting which is just 2.

 

[Reiner04]

I obviously know that they are seprate from main dimension/subtimeline where Ben and other resides but are they separated from entire universe ? No, they are the part of entire main timeline/universe from which others are branching off. there is one dimension of time that is servicing all these alternate worlds inside the entire universe. One dimension of time can service more than one sub timelines.

I don't really remember who did it and where on the vs battle thread but it was a good explanation.
Timeline A - (x, y, z, t, 1)
Timeline B - (x, y, z, t, 2)
x, y, z are the coordinates of 3 dimensions of space and t is timelike variable along which the events passes.
Now there is just 1 dimension of time which is t but yet these two dimensions despite if they have the same value of 3 dimensional coordinates and time t, yet they aren't taking place at the same place, they are seprate not just spatially but temporally because regardless of their all values of 3 dimensional space and one dimension of time, they will never intersect because they are taking place at different coordinates on the 5th dimensional axis, they are parallel to each other on 5d axis. Obviously it'll be heavily complex at the scale of multiple spacetime containing universe, But as it is and as simple it is, it is possible to have 2c universes containing many sub timelines within them which are channeled or serviced by one dimension of time.

 

[Greenshifter]

I'm glad someone finally addresses this stuff since before this it was just me talking to myself essentially lol. Do you use WoG, if so https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/b...estream.png/revision/latest?cb=20201016212055

Because legerdomain is the part of the universe. It has been evident throughout the series, in the episode were the magic happens we have already seen that legerdomain is where one piece of map of infinity was hidden which was said to be done by Paradox throughout the universe. Proceeding to in the episode "the third's time bezel" Gwen stated she has already searched for Kevin's car throughout the universe but didn't find it on which Kevin said "once more", then Gwen searched once again and found it in a legerdomain. Also if legerdomain have to be one in the entire multiverse then it's obvious that there will be many charmcaster ruling one realm as we know that charmcaster in the UA is different than charmcaster in the OV because UA timeline has already branched off to the UA version Ben 10000. Not to mention there must have been way more branching than I am suggesting which is just 2.

Azmuth says galaxy, later on someone said universe though iirc. Thing is that 1 piece of the map is outside of the galaxy, so Azmuth is understating just how spread out the pieces of the map are. I didn't know about the car one though, what do you think makes the most sense considering Ledgerdomain's status, wouldn't it be weird for some small realm in Ben's universe to be providing the life-force for the entire multiverse? Legerdomain can have it's own timestream, don't know if the alpha rune branches or not: , where is this from? What statements are there for Legerdomain in the trend of parallel universe/dimension and the like? Also UA version of Ben 10,000 doesn't exist anymore considering he was Ben Prime.

I care less about your explanation after that since as you already know I use a different system. Probably doesn't matter since I agree that space-times inside of bigger space-times are a thing.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also if you want to go with other dimensions inside of the universe thingy, just say that the timestream is created by the Annihilargh (and it destroys everything that it creates as stated by Rook) and that every timeline has their own Anur Phaetos and that the universe contains a trans-spatial bladder dimension, half of this stuff I got from you lol.

 

[Aachintya31]

I'm glad someone finally addresses this stuff since before this it was just me talking to myself essentially lol. Do you use WoG, if so https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/b...estream.png/revision/latest?cb=20201016212055

can you update the link ?

 

[Greenshifter]

It works for me and uploading it as a picture didn't work for me...

 

[Reiner04]

care less about your explanation after that since as you already know I use a different system. Probably doesn't matter since I agree that space-times inside of bigger space-times are a thing

I know so here we goo..

 

[Greenshifter]

Another thing that came to mind is that Ben said he goes to alternate universes all the time in the crossover with Rex, even though he's only ever been to the Null Void and Legerdomain at this point on-screen. And thanks to your own evidence I can easily prove that Rex's universe is completely separate from Ben's universe.

 

[Reiner04]

It works for me and uploading it as a picture didn't work for me...

Yeah picture is not loading. But fine anyway, neither matters, consider we are here on vs battle. here neither my way nor your way works considering 1a no 2c alien x matters, so it has to go with vs battle ways. Isn't it right pay? Hahahahaha.

 

[Aachintya31]

UA version of Ben 10,000

he still exists but not as ben prime anymore as his future changes everytime he meets himself.

what do you think makes the most sense considering Ledgerdomain's status

wouldn't it be weird to have one spellbinder who is the native to ledgerdomain ?

Another thing that came to mind is that Ben said he goes to alternate universes all the time in the crossover with Rex, even though he's only ever been to the Null Void and Legerdomain at this point on-screen.

Kid ben went to alternate future timeline and by that time he knew its an alternate universe as his future changes everytime he meets his future self

It works for me and uploading it as a picture didn't work for me...

his statements are not WoG according to vsbw standards.

 

[Aachintya31]

anyway

copy the link and paste it on a browser then it works

 

[Greenshifter]

he still exists but not as ben prime anymore as his future changes everytime he meets himself.

wouldn't it be weird to have one spellbinder who is the native to ledgerdomain ?

Kid ben went to alternate future timeline and by that time he knew his future changes everytime he meets his future self

his statements are not WoG according to vsbw standards.

Sure but it's not him technically.

Why would there only be one Spellbinder? The afterlife could branch too.

alternate timelines =/= alternate universes, you can prove Rex's universe isn't an alternate timeline, granted previously I used Legerdomain for this so my proof was reversed.

Yeah but then it turned out he did have some authority, I used to be the most dismissive of him, I mainly put it there for Reiner since Ik he uses WoG.

Honestly all of this shit is one of the main reasons I didn't make a cosmology blog yet.

 

[Reiner04]

Also if you want to go with other dimensions inside of the universe thingy, just say that the timestream is created by the Annihilargh (and it destroys everything that it creates as stated by Rook) and that every timeline has their own Anur Phaetos and that the universe contains a trans-spatial bladder dimension, half of this stuff I got from you lol.

you out of all people should know why it won't work here.

 

[Greenshifter]

you out of all people should know why it won't work here.

It's new evidence, maybe worth a shot. I mean I wouldn't even have made this thread in your place, but considering you did, might as well do it with better evidence? Phaetos stuff is canon btw, check our Way Big page.

Edit: Also could you target my points, I wanna conclude the Null Void and Legerdomain stuff.

 

[Aachintya31]

Why would there only be one Spellbinder? The afterlife could branch too.

we know here everybody says. more assumptions = more evidence

(and it destroys everything that it creates as stated by Rook)

Should destroy time as well

Also if you want to go with other dimensions inside of the universe thingy, just say that the timestream is created by the Annihilargh (and it destroys everything that it creates as stated by Rook) and that every timeline has their own Anur Phaetos and that the universe contains a trans-spatial bladder dimension, half of this stuff I got from you lol.

What ? trans-spatial bladder?

 

[Greenshifter]

we know here everybody says. more assumptions = more evidence

I mean then I won't make any assumptions about how many Spellbinders there are, problem solved.

Should destroy time as well

It created time so yes.

What ? trans-spatial bladder?

This is on a need to know basis and you needn't know.

 

[Reiner04]

It's new evidence, maybe worth a shot. I mean I wouldn't even have made this thread in your place, but considering you did, might as well do it with better evidence? Phaetos stuff is canon btw, check our Way Big page

Will may eventually in future, but right now only 2c alien x matters as of it can be achieved easily considering vs battle ways at right now.

 

[Greenshifter]

Will may eventually in future, but right now only 2c alien x matters as of it can be achieved easily considering vs battle ways at right now.

I can easily achieve infinite 5D (cosmology) if I wanted to, it's just not worth it.

 

[Reiner04]

It created time so yes

comic is canon so obviously

 

[Aachintya31]

I can easily achieve infinite 5D if I wanted to, it's just not worth it.

you once tried, it was good.

It is very much true that anything is possible in a different timeline ,however being branched from the prime timeline itself after ben received the omnitrix ,it should have the same logo as the prime timeline much like No watch ben's Timeline or completely different counterpart like Mr.Gyro and obviously not the Alien X's original imperfection ,also it very much seemed that this is a part of Mad Ben's universe much like other buildings buried inside. Moreover ,for furthur evidence we have the interdimensional store 23 (which exists simultaneously in different universes )and Ben's New Jacket along with different setting of the Background And Store Not just Logo suggesting Time was recreated just not perfectly. Different ben realities in ben 10 are physically connected as shown here .The Chronosapien Time Bomb destroyed the realities by making sure Ben Prime doesn't get the omnitrix causing no branching of the said timestream at all and having a single timeline (i.e the No Watch Ben's Timeline). This even explains why no watch ben's timeline was sparred by vilgax. This shows that the prime timeline is itself 2-B (possibly 2-A) as even maltruant exclaimed the timestream to be infinite despite having a beginning and end.

What do you think of this Greenshifter ?

 

[Greenshifter]

Even more evidence is that Paradox differentiates universes timelines and dimensions.

Thing is, as ridiculous as it sounds, I think they mean the exact same thing in this episode. Unless you wanna tell me that some Bens live in the Null Void or Legerdomain.

 

[Reiner04]

Thing is, as ridiculous as it sounds, I think they mean the exact same thing in this episode. Unless you wanna tell me that some Bens live in the Null Void or Legerdomain

Those dimensions were probably means higher considering universes were embedded in them, as of manyworlds interpretation you see. But not enough evidence so..

 

[Aachintya31]

I thought that the main reason null void wasn't accepted as the part of the main universe here on vsbw because of servantis knowing ben recreated the universe which technically he didn't (as explained above in the thread). And now the reasons are very much different ,tbh i didn't understood any counterarguments except from the fact dimensions/timelines/universe are a misused term in fiction but that's a very weak counterargument.

 

[Greenshifter]

you once tried, it was good.

What do you think of this Greenshifter ?

I was literally just going for range at that point lol. It did eventually force a tiering system revision though.

Mad Ben branched from Ben Prime after the universe was recreated.

 

[Greenshifter]

Those dimensions were probably means higher considering universes were embedded in them, as of manyworlds interpretation you see. But not enough evidence so..

Nah because many Bens existed across those dimensions. Which would be technically true under MWI but gives the word dimension the same functionality as if Paradox had said timeline. Also Map of Infinity contradicts that.

 

[Aachintya31]

Mad Ben branched from Ben after the universe was recreated.

More assumption = more evidence
We do have evidence that atleast prime timeline branched after ben received the omnitrix

I was literally just going for range at that point lol. It did eventually force a tiering system revision though.

I saw your High regen Alien X CRT but it was never applied

 

[Reiner04]

Nah because many Bens existed across those dimensions. Which would be technically true under MWI but gives the word dimension the same functionality as if Paradox had said timeline. Also Map of Infinity contradicts that.

BEN 10 COSMOLOGY CAN BE TO 17D? DIDN'T KNEW SINCE NALJIANS ARE LAIRS

 

[Reiner04]

I obviously know that they are seprate from main dimension/subtimeline where Ben and other resides but are they separated from entire universe ? No, they are the part of entire main timeline/universe from which others are branching off. there is one dimension of time that is servicing all these alternate worlds inside the entire universe. One dimension of time can service more than one sub timelines.

I don't really remember who did it and where on the vs battle thread but it was a good explanation.
Timeline A - (x, y, z, t, 1)
Timeline B - (x, y, z, t, 2)
x, y, z are the coordinates of 3 dimensions of space and t is timelike variable along which the events passes.
Now there is just 1 dimension of time which is t but yet these two dimensions despite if they have the same value of 3 dimensional coordinates and time t, yet they aren't taking place at the same place, they are seprate not just spatially but temporally because regardless of their all values of 3 dimensional space and one dimension of time, they will never intersect because they are taking place at different coordinates on the 5th dimensional axis, they are parallel to each other on 5d axis. Obviously it'll be heavily complex at the scale of multiple spacetime containing universe, But as it is and as simple it is, it is possible to have 2c universes containing many sub timelines within them which are channeled or serviced by one dimension of time.

Anyway given everything here we were.

 

[Aachintya31]

Lets Not Degrade This thread anymore

Yes, you're the one who said it's in the universe. Can you show all the evidence of it? The evidence against it is way too abundant.

I hope Eficiente shows the evidence against it