Beerus vs Superman(Pre-Crisis)

[Faisal_Shourov]

The mechanism behind opening the portal wasn't explained thoroughly, so we can't give it to any other character beside Buu and Gotenks based on the assumption that people with more power can do the same. Hax doesn't work with scaling, unless characters are stated/shown to share same characteristics/power and the mechanism is well described.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

wasnt explained

but the characters already seemed to only need the power

and so combining that with our definitions leads us to the point that they need power to do this, most likely ki gives them the intrinsic properties already, ans all those weaker than buu cannot use it


in this case, it was clearly not exclusive hax to a particular character

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's why I said Buu used it twice. I know Buu is fully capable of using it to whatever extent. I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure that no one else should be capable of using it. Otherwise, universal destruction could happen by say, Ultimate Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, and SSJ3 Goku screaming.

They didn't use it because most of them don't even know how it was done. Just that it was done. If that made sense.

Anyone stronger would use it accidentally.

Buu, a being who's at least as old as Beerus, if not, older, didn't even know the move existed until did it, once again, accidentally. Why would Beerus know it.

For the record, this question is legitimate: If Prime (the weaker version) shattered reality again, and someone of his level did it, say PC Supes did it, would that make it any less PIS?

And once again, my way of victory would prevent him from returning even with the vice shout. Outside the multiverse is far beyond canon DBZ scale.

 

[Alexcar3000]

And once again, my way of victory would prevent him from returning even with the vice shout. Outside the multiverse is far beyond canon DBZ scale.

By that logic, as we still don't know Beerus's full capabilities, I would say he somehow has a metod to break out of his seal and whoop supes's butt.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

wasnt explained
but the characters already seemed to only need the power

and so combining that with our definitions leads us to the point that they need power to do this, most likely ki gives them the intrinsic properties already, ans all those weaker than buu cannot use it


in this case, it was clearly not exclusive hax to a particular character

Beerus hasn't shown it, it could be exclusive to Buu and Gotenks only, we don't know. Hax can't be scaled, that's the point. There is no indication Beerus can do it. He might be able to learn it, but it's not usable for vs threads at the moment

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

are you implying a mere ki boosting transformation gave him hax?

if anyting, the hax must have been there to begin with in order to be boosted to such levels


also, since yama didnt point it out, one can infer that he didnt meant it to be specific tto only fusions and buu, just that only fusions and buu were powerful enough during the buu vs gotenks fight to boost it to usable levels


tbh, i dont see an end to this in sight

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

^It might not have anything to do with Ki boosting. The mechanism for the ability was not explained, so we can't give it to anybody who hasn't shown or implied to use it. It can't be powerscaled. You can learn new hax, but that doesn't mean you gain new hax just because you grow stronger. Or a stronger being knows the same hax as you. Just because Gotenks knows about the ability doesn't mean Beerus knows it as well. Otherwise Beerus could teleport like Goku

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

it was clearly not a case o mere learning

even piccolo was at it, but it only worked once gotenk's power increased

so are you implying an ssj3 as a fusion gives you new hax


my interpretation is that he. like everyone else had minor capabilities which were so small that they were uselesss

but once crossing a certain threashold, he can use the technique to open up spacetime holes

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

By that logic, as we still don't know Beerus's full capabilities, I would say he somehow has a metod to break out of his seal and whoop supes's butt.
What? By what logic? Dragon Ball is a multi-universe while DC is a (possibly complex) hyperverse. Superman could seal him on a multiversal scale. If you're talking about me stating a potential victory for Supes, I didn't pull that out of my butt. He showed the ability to traverse universes, and to separate a universe for the rest of the multiverse by sealing it out of the multiverse. And it's not a seal in the sense of old kai.

To TLT1: To the debate or the fight? imo, the fight could end 4 ways (5 if Supes can phase):

1) Beerus connects and obliterates Superman Saitama-style.

2) SuperBFR (we both know it would be called that lol. I mean, we were joking about Supermathematics before lol.)

3) Inconclusive as Superman would just stay away and would have to stay close to the shockwaves. Couldn't really hurt Beerus.

4) Beerus universe busts and takes everyone in it out, including himself.

But you should make a thread about if the Vice Shout should be an ability attributable to all DB Characters 4-A and up.

Oh, and before I forget. If we assume Beerus uses the Vice Shout, we can also assume he would use the Wolf Fang Fist, Solar Flare, Galactic Donut, Kamekaze Ghost Attack, Special Beam Cannon, Kienzan, and of couse, the...Final Flash. (Thought I was gonna say the Kamehameha, didn't you? lol)

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

well technically ALL those techniques are ki based

the ghost kamekazi attack is just a unique way to control your ki and set it off as bombs in particular instances

but that is a specific kind of a way to use ki in an explosive way

the space ripping thing as seen was purely using power (which implies ki already has potentials which allows for this stuff when enough power is reached)

also, yes a thread would be good to clarify this, so I wud make one tomorrow

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Could be, it's very likely exclusive ability like Guldo's timestop, or has to be learned like Instant Transmission. But learning hax itself has not much to do with power, that's why hax is always kept separate from power

Also, we don't give hax to anybody based on assumption or interpretation, some characters like Juggernaut have the ability to punch through dimension, but not everybody on his power level can do it. You only have a hax if you're shown using it, or implied that you know the ability

 

[Alexcar3000]

it was clearly not a case o mere learning
even piccolo was at it, but it only worked once gotenk's power increased

so are you implying an ssj3 as a fusion gives you new hax


my interpretation is that he. like everyone else had minor capabilities which were so small that they were uselesss

but once crossing a certain threashold, he can use the technique to open up spacetime holes

Yes, transformations in DB generally doesn't give you new abilities, it just increases and powers up already existing abilities as well as stats linearly except in special cases (SSJ Dai Ni Dankai and SSJ Dai Ni San Dankai)... also that hints at God Tiers being capable of doing it in Universal levels aka Tier 2... ¬w¬

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Could be, it's very likely exclusive ability like Guldo's timestop, or has to be learned like Instant Transmission. But learning hax itself has not much to do with power, that's why hax is always kept separate from power
Also, we don't give hax to anybody based on assumption or interpretation, some characters like Juggernaut have the ability to punch through dimension, but not everybody on his power level can do it. You only have a hax if you're shown using it, or implied that you know the ability

guldo's timestop was explicitly shown to be a special technique endemic to only him

in thiss case, however we can clearly see that merely transforming was good enough

so are you making a final statement that ssj3 gives fusions hax

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

are we also forgetting that beerus can also seal people?

 

[Alexcar3000]

What? By what logic? Dragon Ball is a multi-universe while DC is a (possibly complex) hyperverse. Superman could seal him on a multiversal scale. If you're talking about me stating a potential victory for Supes, I didn't pull that out of my butt. He showed the ability to traverse universes, and to separate a universe for the rest of the multiverse by sealing it out of the multiverse. And it's not a seal in the sense of old kai.

To TLT1: To the debate or the fight? imo, the fight could end 4 ways (5 if Supes can phase):

1) Beerus connects and obliterates Superman Saitama-style.

2) SuperBFR (we both know it would be called that lol. I mean, we were joking about Supermathematics before lol.)

3) Inconclusive as Superman would just stay away and would have to stay close to the shockwaves. Couldn't really hurt Beerus.

4) Beerus universe busts and takes everyone in it out, including himself.

But you should make a thread about if the Vice Shout should be an ability attributable to all DB Characters 4-A and up.

Oh, and before I forget. If we assume Beerus uses the Vice Shout, we can also assume he would use the Wolf Fang Fist, Solar Flare, Galactic Donut, Kamekaze Ghost Attack, Special Beam Cannon, Kienzan, and of couse, the...Final Flash. (Thought I was gonna say the Kamehameha, didn't you? lol)

Well...it's not a "technique" it's just shouting, like... really really loud... and Gotenks already used Wolf Fang Fist in the OVA as well as Tien's Volley Ball Attack because why not...and a lot of people had used Solar Flare, Kienzan is also the preffered stealed ability...same for the rest, these can be learn because they're techniques, but Vice Shout is just screaming really loud lol.

And that Supes can make any superpower he wants right? Well, he can make himself a Pudding Vision that allows him to win against Beerus with that lol.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

What we can see, Gotenks used it in SSJ3. He might have known about the ability from before, or he might have learned it from Buu. As for Beerus, there is no indication Beerus can rip through portal. He can't even teleport which isn't even uncommon in Dragon Ball. That's why we use hax based on showings only, since it's not dependant on power level. It's either exclusive, or has to be learned. No indication of either for Beerus

 

[Mister_Death]

If Gotenk's ability to use a shout to rip through dimensions was hax, AND if it were only somehow inexplicably given to only Gotenks and Buu for some odd reason, then Piccolo probably would not have even attempted it, and it was implied that that shout was basically formed when a sufficiently powerful being Screamed like gotenks or buu did

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

not based on powerlevel?

everytime someone needed to use it, they used it from buu onwards

so far in dbs, the fights were meant to be fights, and gohan's goal was to destroy buu so he didnt use trapping tactics (which buu wud of gotten out of)

from what i have seen it seems to be related to power itself

also how on earth do you learn hax like that

wouldnt beerus, an experienced god learn how to tamped with this stuff once he sees superman interacting with space like that

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

If Gotenk's ability to use a shout to rip through dimensions was hax, AND if it were only somehow inexplicably given to only Gotenks and Buu for some odd reason, then Piccolo probably would not have even attempted it, and it was implied that that shout was basically formed when a sufficiently powerful being Screamed like gotenks or buu did

Superman, Hulk and Juggernaut were said to punch through dimension with pure power, but it's still treated as hax. Piccolo's words don't make much difference here. Nothing special really

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

also, what about beerus's ability to seal, and his apparent limited cloning ?


edit: bad grammar

 

[Alexcar3000]

Well, what about my way of Supes winning? PUDDING VISION!

 

[Mister_Death]

If Gotenk's ability to use a shout to rip through dimensions was hax, AND if it were only somehow inexplicably given to only Gotenks and Buu for some odd reason, then Piccolo probably would not have even attempted it, and it was implied that that shout was basically formed when a sufficiently powerful being Screamed like gotenks or buu did

Superman, Hulk and Juggernaut were said to punch through dimension with pure power, but it's still treated as hax. Piccolo's words don't make much difference here. Nothing special really

Even if it is regarded as such, why are we to assume it can't be scaled to Beerus? It's clearly shown you need raw power to enable that kind of ability, there is literally next to no word of it being a gotenks/buu limited ability, yet its perfectly implied a stronger than ss3 level power could do it.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

They showed it from Buu onwards because it makes them look impressive I guess? Dimension punch hax isn't really dependent on power, despite what writers try to portray.

As for Beerus clone and sealing, either Beerus knew it from beginning, learned it from somebody (like Goku learned IT from aliens), or maybe invented the hax for himself.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

also

you said gotenks learned it

well superman will have to also do funny things with space

and a far smarter guy like beerus (compared to goten) can learn that as well

and use it tto get out

and go after superman again

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Mister Death if raw power was enough all strong characters on similar level could punch through dimension regularly. But they don't. It's made to look impressive using the word power, but it's regarded as hax on its usage.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Mister Death if raw power was enough all strong characters on similar level could punch through dimension regularly. But they don't. It's made to look impressive using the word power, but it's regarded as hax on its usage.

one can argue that:

well actually it is power+ a special shout (most likely the waves of the disturbance made by sound)

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

also
you said gotenks learned it

well superman will have to also do funny things with space

and a far smarter guy like beerus (compared to goten) can learn that as well

and use it tto get out

and go after superman again

Well of course, Beerus could learn it. But he hasn't shown that he knows how to use it. So we have to wait until he shows it, that's what Im saying

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok ok hold on

so now are you implying that gotenk knew how to use it to begin with???

also as for until he shows it argument- it can make sense- but i think that will need to apply to beerus himself

we havent seen him at his best, and most likely we havent seen all of his major techniques yet (since he hasnt actually fought in a serious battle yet)

so wud it be better to avoid all god related matches in dbs untill a while?

 

[Mister_Death]

the idea of Beerus not being able to bust out of a universe(implying it isnt universe 6 or 7) is silly, even without a shout, the god of destruction most likely has a way out of BFR

 

[Alexcar3000]

also, what about beerus's ability to seal, and his apparent limited cloning ?

edit: bad grammar

What about his Nullification hax? Can he use it to nullify Superman's punches (he did it to Goku) and his Heat Vision?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

ok ok hold on
so now are you implying that gotenk knew how to use it to begin with???

also as for until he shows it argument- it can make sense- but i think that will need to apply to beerus himself

we havent seen him at his best, and most likely we havent seen all of his major techniques yet (since he hasnt actually fought in a serious battle yet)

so wud it be better to avoid all god related matches in dbs untill a while?

Possibly, Gotenks said he wanted to use it in a cooler location. Either that, or he might have learned it by watching Buu

I don't see why we should avoid threads tbh, Beerus has plenty of feats and they're extremely impressive. He might not have crazy hax like Bleach characters but Beerus is a beast. He's as strong as you can get without crazy hax, Beerus is a distinct character

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

What about his Nullification hax? Can he use it to nullify Superman's punches (he did it to Goku) and his Heat Vision?

He can nullify heat vision no doubt (with verse equalization). Not sure about punches

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

please explain how exactly gotenks have this ability to begin with

i mean, i had some assumptions alright, but you have gone well beyond me in that sector

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

please explain how exactly gotenks have this ability to begin with
i mean, i had some assumptions alright, but you have gone well beyond me in that sector

This is not concrete hypothesis, just a possibility. He might have known the ability from before. Or to the opposite, he just learned it from Buu after seeing it.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the cooler location thing

is for going ssj3 ...

 

[Dafegamer]

Hi vswiki members !!

I'm new here

Just wanted to say that Beerus has an overlooked hax feat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzE-MDGapTA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4A4jXrms8M

he can paralyze people with his stare. He did it twice against Vegeta.

Isn't it considered a hax feat?

 

[Dafegamer]

sorry in advance if this is considered derailing

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

oh and one more thing

normally superman isnt at 3-B

normally much lower

so in most cases, i dont think he wud even have the power to budge let alone take beerus to another universe

also, doesnt the sealing involve using heat vision?

cant beerus nullify it?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Hi vswiki members !!
he can paralyze people with his stare. He did it twice against Vegeta.

Isn't it considered a hax feat?

Welcome to the wiki. Yes it is hax I would assume. Some sort of telepathy to make opponent crumble in fear. Not sure if it will work on Superman, but yes it's an ability I would say

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

oh and one more thing
normally superman isnt at 3-B

normally much lower

so in most cases, i dont think he wud even have the power to budge let alone take beerus to another universe

also, doesnt the sealing involve using heat vision?

cant beerus nullify it?

Superman taking Beerus to another universe depends on his lifting strength and speed, so the tier gap doesn't really matter here. However, I didn't think of the BFR option, I personally dislike BFR in vs threads. So Superman could win via BFR using his lifting strength and insanely superior speed. As I dislike BFR, I won't argue for Superman in this regard

If speed was equal, Beerus would squash Superman like a bug, no kidding. And yes, Heat Vision would be completely useless, it could be redirected or nullfied. Absolutely useless