Bearer of the Curse Vs Chosen Undead

[Holyhotsauce]

Well? what is it? r u cool yet?

Chosen Undead:

Bearer of the Curse:

Scenario:

Both at Low 7-B

Bloodlusted

 

[TheDoom01]

Bearer of the Curse

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bearer of the Curse due to more versatility

 

[HeCatThunderMan]

The Chosen Undead due to having slightly higher stats in many categories.

 

[DivineTedrius]

Chosen Undead due to better feats (DS1 bosses > DS2 bosses)

 

[Mage914]

I'd say it's inconclusive. The feats are basically the same in my opinion because the enemies you fight in DS2 are just reincarnations of DS1 enemies. They fought and killed the same enemies just in different bodies. The abilities changed somewhat (Gwen, a lightning user, changed into Old Iron King, a fire user) but the level of power should have remained the same due to the souls being the power source for the abilities.

 

[Lightbuster30]

BOTC. For versatility, and beating someone who half transcended life and death.

 

[SirBrownBear]

Since they're both basically the same, it's best to judge by mechanics, in which case Chosen Undead wins via stunlock and poise. BotC is a smidge faster, but that's pretty urrelevent when they're only gonna get in a hit or two and fail to break the poise before the CU stunlocks them with basically any weapon they feel like using. DS2 poise is virtually noneexistant, so they're not gonna be able to brush it off or roll out.

 

[Mage914]

If we go by game mechanics rather than lore I would actually give it to the Bearer. Lorewise they accomplished essentially the same feats but when you look at game mechanics the Bearer is a much better combatant than the Chosen Undead. The CU is slow and deliberate with extremely obvious tells in his fighting. The Bearer is likewise slow and has too many tells but several weapons from DS2 have movesets specifically designed to confuse an opponent. The Santiers Spear has the movesets of 3 seperate weapon classes so you can't tell whats coming and several weapons like the Bone Fist and the Majestic Greatsword have highly acrobatic moves that allow you to outmanouver an oppenent when applied correctly.

Edit: Likewise there are more hybrid catalyst weaons capable of melee and casting spells or casting spells from various schools. Imagine trying to fight a guy with a longsowrd only to have him suddenly turn the blade into a 15ft weapons of pure magic that can pass through objects in it's way yet lose none of its cutting power. It's unexpected and deadly. Also he has powerstancing which gives further options in battle. Having that many more options is extremely deadly.

 

[SirBrownBear]

I'm aware of this, that's why I said BotC is faster (mobility wise anyways, excluding the ninja ring), but ultimatly that won't matter. the bearer still has to get close, and when they do, they're done. If we're assuming max stats and optimal armor here, CU's poise can take several, if not all the hits from the weapons you mentioned (which focus more on long combos with poor poise damage as a result), and catch the bearer with any number of weapons, but lets specific and say an ultra greatsword with it's roughly 180 degree swing ark.

 

[Mage914]

You realize DS3 was the one that threw out poise for parrying and dodging right. DS1 is epitomized by sword and board with a big shield and a huge weapon. DS2 is more balanced. You definitely have heavy armor that you can poise through hits with. You also have more options as I said before and more manouverability. There are a wider variety of spells, and weapons in DS2 focus more on PVP which means that many of them are designed to confuse an opponent. There are even a pair of rings that make your weapons invisible so you could attack somebody with what is obviously a sword only to have them back up and get space and BOOM it was a spell catalyst all along. When the B-Team made DS2 they tried to keep as many mechanics from the old game as possible but they through out any that where clunky or inconvenient and added many new ones. Go look at the animation for the mace in DS1 and DS2. DS1 is a slow and clunky hit that keeps repeating and couldn't hit anything with a pulse. DS2 is actually has a combo that flows smoothly and allows followup hits. If anybody is going to get stunlocked its the CU.

 

[SirBrownBear]

I am, yes, but DS2 nerfed the poise pretty heavily as well, in that game poise was more of a "roll out of combos so you take 2 hits instead of 3 from that shortsword" than "ignore hitstun completly and keep on swingin". Yes, it is does have more spell variety and weapon manuverability, but all CU has to do is whip out Havel's shield and they'll tank everything thrown at em that they can't already dodge, or, ya know, just eat the attack without a care in mind with their poise and proceed to "spam R1". A bloodlusted "character" isn't the same as a human player entering an arena or being invaded, the character isn't gonna stop and ponder what weapon they might have, or if they're using rings they hacked into the game cause they couldn't get them legitimatly, they're just gonna shield up and charge, and really that's a pretty ironclad strategy that shuts down most DS2 (and DS1, really) means of attack, since, again, their weapons have poor poise/stability damage, and instead opt for flashy, long combos, none of which gonna take down a greatshield, let alone a DS1 greatshield. The only way CU's getting stunnlocked is if they're naked.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I will keep this simple and vote chosen undead via higher ap. Their hax is basically the same and same with their speed, maybe combat experience will go to BOTC, but chosen undead has higher ap by a factor of 2 I believe.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Bearer's AP justification doesn't go anywhere

"killed Fume Knight and Sir Alone"

> Fume Knight fought with Vestaldt => Vestalt doesn't even have a page

> Sir Alonne => Circular scaling

 

[Mage914]

Really the AP scaling should be based on The Old Iron King, The Lost Sinner, Duke's Dear Freja and The Rotten. Those four are reincarnations of enities that the Chosen Undead fought. Souls are the power source for the souls series so somebody in a differenet body but the same soul should be able to output the same energy in their abilities like fire manipulation. In particular The Lost Sinner has a few calculated feats in her old Witch of Izalith form that are around nuclear levelish (I think it was 7-B). So anyway the Bearer and the Chosen Undead have literally one to one feats. They defeated the same people. Also it's not just those four that were reincarnated. Those are just the ones that they basically tell us were through items that they drop. Other less blatant (but still pretty blatant) examples include Nakja being Quelaag, the Royal Rat Authority being Sif, and Nashandra and her sisters being Manus.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I personally disagree with automatically scaling the four Great Souls to Nito, Seath, Gwyn and the witch.

As for the Rat Authority and Nakja, while there are similarities between them, I'm pretty sure they are never implied to be reincarnations, unlike the Great Souls

Nashadra and her sisters are definitely Manus, but because Manus was split, and even split into daughters of different power, we can't automatically scale those daughters to him

 

[The_Everlasting]

There's still the Old Dragonslayer, that's the important one.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Frankly our Dark Souls pages are a bit of a mess, and I plan to fix it in my upcoming revisions.

 

[Mage914]

I feel like the real problem is that nobody agrees on what the lore actually says. For instance you could say that the Old Dragonslayer is Ornstien or you could say it was some dude in his armor. The whole thing is so ambiguous. What I find obvious about the lore might make no sense to anybody else. Like the fact that souls are power sources. We see it multiple times throughout the series that more souls make you stronger but they are never clear on how or why. Do increased soul counts mean increased physical strength or increased magical strength or both or neither? Also do souls always stay the same strength? Is the Old King's Soul the same strength as Gwen's soul from DS1 or has it diminished beyond recognition? It's too open for interpretation.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I always assumed diminished, which is why I disagree with scaling to reincarnations

 

[Mage914]

And see I read it the opposite way because it seems to me that each game the Flame becomes less and less vibrant meaning you need more and more souls to link the fire. Notice how even though the Ashen One was able to beat the combine power of every person who has ever linked the fire (The Soul of Cinder) and yet all they get when linking the fire is a wimper as opposed to the massive explosion that happens in DS1. By that logic the Bearer would need to have more and stronger souls to accomplish the same task since the difficulty of completing said task increased. That's why I feel like this matchup is inconclusive because we can't for sure say that one is stronger than the other.

 

[Keeweed]

I just started playing ds2 a month ago, but i'm Giving this to the bearer: more skilled and versatility.