Battle of the Fatties: Big the Cat vs Guzzlord [CONCLUDED]

[Theuser789]

The pain tolerance isn't for being durable but from a special move who does so. This move

Because the increase of power of the emeralds isn't linear, otherwise one would be tier 2, they increae expontantialy

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

People also forget that Guzzlord has spatial manipulation here too.

 

[Imaginym]

@ProfessorKukui4Life: How does the Spatial Manipulation work, though?

@Theuser789: Exponentially? As in "rapidly"/"greatly"? Also, how are we sure it specifically isn't ALL SEVEN (Since it's a complete set & presumably, different emeralds/quantities have different effects on the power granted) grants Tier 2, but an amount from 1 to 6 is linear?

 

[Theuser789]

Well, that's how it usualy works, as in it's not linear set of strengh

Anyways we are only three hours for grace to end, and multiple moves of Big can also cause stun btw

 

[Imaginym]

@Theuser789: I don't see those listed on his profile. Which moves? If they aren't on his profile, do we know they weren't accepted?

Also, given I'm unsure how the moves work, I'm also unsure if Gastro Acid wouldn't negate them. Although, if they're via Electricity Manipulation, it might shut them down, as Gastro Acid can suppress Galvanize

(I'm also not sure where it was stated Chaos Emeralds have exponential power, & them having individually quantified strength makes that seem questionable, IMHO.)

Also, Guzzlord can BFR or restrain via Dragon Tail (Maybe.), Lifting Strength, which it might do if Big proves not worthwhile of trying to eat. (Also, Ultra Wormholes.)

And whatever its Spatial Manipulation ProfessorKukui4Life mentioned is.

Also, Guzzlord's at least one of flinch-causing moves Bite is likely one of its first moves.

As for the matter of grace nearing its end.... I still question how valid it is when I'm not even sure what they were FRA-ing, one of the win condition was brought up AFTER whatever it is they brought up, & some of Big's win conditions have issues: Ex: Gastro Acid against tangible Wisps or Wisp-granted forms, BFR, fleeing the pseudo black hole then coming back later, due to even the lowest speed in this match being FTL, & Ultra Wormholes.

 

[Theuser789]

They are still valid, plus the Wisps Black Hole can,y'know, move, they aren't stationary, and again Big is invulnarable when using a Wisp, and the resons it was I who brought them, which was explaining How Big uses Wisps in character, his inteligence and the fact he would know which move to use

They aren't eletric moves, here they are

We treat as the increase being expotantional here, plus it's stated in multiple games

All you are listening is reasons Guzzlord might win, but that doesn't make the votes invalid, it honestely, no offense, make you sound salty, the match was open for multiple days and when grace is reached you complain about the votes not being valid

 

[Imaginym]

Thank you for the clarification. I figured counter-arguments against Wisp tactics might matter for Wisp-based arguments. But if the votes are still valid, they're still valid.

Also, reading:

Battering Ram causes Distraction, which apparently debuffs accuracy. I'm also unsure how distracted someone would remain in a 1-on-1 battle vs someone trying to kill them who Guzzlord also wants to kill.

Lure Whip does Stun foes for the round, I agree. How durable is Big's fishing rod?

Also, Taunt forces the foe to attack only Big, not stuns them.

Also, Guzzlord is listed as having Planetary Range for its Projectiles and Abilities, & don't most Wisp-based abilities involve approaching the target after absorbing the Wisps? Not to mention, vomit from a mouth as huge as Guzzlords has a widespread.

Not to mention, the argument seems to be based on Wisps, but not which Wisps to use, when at least some have counter-strategies.

If it's the basis of his argument, which Wisp(s) is Big likely to use to win?

(That said, I didn't think I had debated much, just asked question, & to me, it seemed like a lot of this was just FRA based on Wisps, so I felt I should try to debate this. Sorry if this is unpleasant for you to debate.)

 

[Theuser789]

It's a status debuff, it works even on 1 on 1 battles.

I think it's as durable as him,I can't renember it breaking

Some Wisps increase speed, plus Big is invulnarable while using them.

Mostly all of them can help Big, plus his Ap and regular abilities, probaly the best would be Violet Void and Indigo Asteroid, but all of them help.

It isn't unpleasant, sorry if you thought otherwise, I just didn't like you saying the votes didn't count this close to grace ending, you are fine debating here

 

[Imaginym]

(On the point of the debating, glad to know this isn't unpleasant.)

In any case, doesn't the distracted debuff originate from a game where Big has teammates. Point was, it doesn't Stun. And IIRC, aren't some Wisps forms of locomotion slower than regular movement? Or result in transformations more limited in mobility?

Also, several Wisps help less due to Guzzlord's resistances: Resistance to Ghost, Fire, Water, Grass, Electric, and Dark Type moves, since those presumably includes those elements. (Also, "Immunity" to Psychic moves, but other than Telekinesis & Gravity, which isn't an attacking move, don't see how that greatly helps.)

Also, both combatants are FTL or faster, & Violet & Indigo require contact. Guzzlord could simply run from the pull until the Wisp's effect runs out, or open an Ultra Wormhole to go into rather than deal with the effects.

Violet Void is especially limited for this use in that it has difficulty pulling in things that are too big and heavy, and has to accumulate mass to do so. Guzzlord probably can't be pulled in right away, since it begins at 5.5 meters (18 feet tall) and 888 kg heavy.

What have Big's usual first choices of Wisps been in canon?

 

[Theuser789]

Most Wisps do boost his speed like Rocket and Laser, stun still works in the game even if you are in a 1 on 1 fight, it's just makes the opponent miss.

Only Burst would be weakened due to being fire/explosion based, the rest not really would be weakened.

Big can use the ambient to make Violet Void grows

Big uses Jade Ghost which makes him intangible, but he doesn't have a preference

 

[Imaginym]

@Theuser789: Wasn't arguing Lure Whip can't stun. Was arguing there's less things for someone to remain Distracted with in a 1-on-1 match if Battering Ram inflicts it.

Explosions aren't fire? Also, the page for Wisps lists Ivory Lightning as Electricty Manipulation.

What is the Ambiente? Also, OP specified Big's only equipment this match is his Fishing Rod & Wisps.

Doesn't Jade Ghost have an effective time limit (According to the Sonic Wiki, a few seconds.) like other Wisps due to limited Hyper-Go-on energy? And wouldn't using another Wisp change Big's Wisp Form, thus changing the powers? If he's intangible, can he still attack?

Also, he doesn't have a preference? Hasn't he used Wisps in cutscenes?

 

[Theuser789]

Distracted still works on a 1 on 1 in the game

I did say Burst wouldn't be that effective, but I guess Lightning as well.

That was a mispell, lol, I meant environment

Yes it does, other attacks can still work I think, like the Froggy ones, and every Wisp does have a time limit, but it can be refilled if it uses another Wisps

Big used Jade Ghost in the canon TSR comics that I linked in a earlier post, but just that

 

[Imaginym]

I don't disagree that it would, just felt a distracted status would last less time with less distracting. My mistake about Burst.

Also, given Wisps can refill Wisp meters, we also get into the question of "How many Wisps available"? Does he have infinite of every colour? Given he has an AP advantage in this fight, what would prompt him to use them, supposing he has time to think to do so? (Ex: If Guzzlord fails to damage him with Bite, & Dragon Tails Big into Space.)

WOULD he consume a neverending supply of Wisps until he wins?

Depending on context, that COULD mean Big's more inclined towards using Jade Ghost Wisps as a solution to problems than other types of Wisps.

 

[Theuser789]

Well, I think in Runners you can have 99 of each, and Drill and Laser could bring him back to Earth in case he gets BFR, or even Rocket

Anyways grace is almost over

 

[Imaginym]

What would stop Guzzlord just avoiding the stuff that clearly destroys/transmutes anything it touches via fleeing or using an Ultra Wormhole?

Even if Big had 99 of all of them, and there's... 17 types.... That's at most, a little over 28 minutes, and not even all of them beat Guzzlord, assuming Big decides to spam EVERY Wisp he can neverendingly, and never let any of them run out, which seems unlikely.

Also, do ALL of them grant intangibility? I mean, several clearly make contact with surfaces by necessity.

Why would he choose to use Wisps exclusively/continuously when he's physically stronger and often uses his fishing rod and other attacks, outside of races?

 

[Theuser789]

I mean, Big can still beat him via Ap and his other moves who cause stun and distract him, the Wisps only help him, but he doesn't have to only use them, and only Jade Ghost and Violet Void makes you intangible, the rest makes him invulnarable while using them

Anyways grace is over, someone add this

 

[Theuser789]

I mean, Big can still beat him via Ap and his other moves who cause stun and distract him, the Wisps only help him, but he doesn't have to only use them, and only Jade Ghost and Violet Void makes you intangible, the rest makes him invulnarable while using them

Anyways grace is over, someone add this

 

[Imaginym]

I'd argue about Power Nullification and Flinching and Stat Drops, and BFR, but whatever....

Big spams Wisps FRA, if it's not too late to vote. (Probably is, though, lol.)

 

[Theuser789]

It kinda is lol, because grace is over