Battle of the charging beasts 2 (Dire Rhino vs Pinky)

[Peppersalt43]

Dire Rhino : 7
Pinky : 0
Incon : 0

8-C versions used (Which means third key pinky)
Fight takes place in an African Savannah, 10 meters apart
Base speed equalized

Story below

Hellboy sat in the covers of a bush, observing the many monstrous animals feeding in front of him. His retirement to Africa has been mostly uneventful, save for that incident where a monkey got a gun. This time he was looking at a rather large and furry rhinoceros, grazing on the grassy plains. "That is one big rhino" the former agent commented before being startled by a loud sound behind him. A portal had appeared there and from it, a hellish plain could be seen, followed by the Doomslayer being launched through it. Following him is a large monstrous beast lacking skin, bones poking out of various parts of its body.

"You again? I thought at this point you'd be better at dodging portals" said Hellboy, helping the slayer up. The Doomslayer simply pushed him away before walking towards the pinky, rage burning behind his helmet. He quickly grabbed the monster before swinging it around himself, finally throwing it far into the air. The pinky landed directly on top of the rhinoceros, inciting its rage. The slayer was about to walk in and finish the job before being stopped.

"Wait wait, I want to see where this is going" said the former agent.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Ah, the first bump...

 

[Imaginym]

Reality Warping (Passive. The demons with their presence bring their reality with them, "hellifying" the environment. This can lead to many destructive events, all of which benefit them on conquering worlds. Whether that be creating Hellgrowths or infecting the atmosphere, making it poisonous)

Anyone willing to explain which events are likely for this?
Also, since it's mentioned, would making the atmosphere Poisonous be a problem for a Dire Rhino? Then again, it has high Constitution, right? That contributes to resisting Poison in D&D, doesn't it?

Other than Natural Weaponry that isn't detailed on -At least, not in the Powers & Abilities- Pinky has.... Resistance to gunfire (through the thickness of their hides).

Spoiler: Statistics Analysis

D&D's Dire Rhino seems to be scaled to 2,386,000,000 Joules.
Pinky's 3rd Key seems to be scaled to 1,901,615,282.44 Joules.

This gives the Dire Rhino a 1.25472277 advantage. So slightly over 25% stronger in AP/Striking Strength.

What about Lifting Strength?
At least Class 5 (Far stronger than their Classic Incarnations, can uplift large vehicles, shouldn't be hugely weaker than Hell Knights)
Hell Knight: At least Class 5, likely Higher (Far stronger than their Classic Selves, supposedly capable of crushing bones, one Hell Knight was shown tearing a person in two)

....Is splitting a person in half really not calculated? Well, Baseline Class 5, versus....

Lifting Strength: Class 50 (Due to having a strength score of 30[1] they can push at max 49 tons)

IDK where the logic from that is for D&D, but I'll accept that. But is it 49 tons/short tons/US tons, 49 Imperial Tons, or 49 (metric) tonnes? I assume 49 tonnes.

Considering Class 5 LS begins at 1 metric tonne, & Class 50 begins at 25....

Well, odds are, the Rhino will have no problem pushing this demon around, should the rhino charge. Likewise, throwing it off if it grabs onto it, especially grabbing its horn, shouldn't be much trouble.

It does bring up a question, though: Can the Dire Rhino right itself if it ends up off its feet on its back or on its side? Ex: If the Pinky pushes it over, or if it trips over "Hellgrowths" during charging? Would Hellgrowths create difficult terrain or such?

& in terms of skill....
Dire Rhino:
Enhanced Senses (Have enhanced sense of smell[1]), Martial Arts (Via Weapon Focus and Improved Critical[1]; Explained here[2] and here[3]), Resistance to Mind Manipulation (All dire animals resist mind manipulation[4])
Intelligence: Animalistic
& 2 Notable Attacks/Techniques:

• Gore[1]: A simple move where the Rhinoceros charges foward and gores the target with its massive horn
• Trample[1]: The Rhinoceros attemps to stomp the oppoent to death

Pinky:
Intelligence: Low. Consistently depicted as being one of the least intelligent enemies in the series
Weaknesses: Extremely unintelligent and single-minded, utilizing no tactics whatsoever and relying on brute force in every encounter.

Stamina?
Dire Rhino:
Stamina: High (Should be on par with adventurers who can keep fighting after their limbs got chopped of)
Pinky:
Stamina: Limitless (The demons of Hell have limitless aggression and are tireless beings)

So the Pinky probably isn't going to be defeated through exhaustion, & might not collapse due to blood loss, I guess? But it should die if sufficiently injured, right?

Range?
Dire Rhino:
Range: Extended melee range via its horn (It can grow to a length of 3.048 meters[1])
Pinky:
Range: Standard melee range

Overall, the Pinky's advantages are that it has Limitless Stamina, maybe its unknown kind of Natural Weaponry, & depending on what "Hellifying" the environment does. (Ex: What does it take for a Dire Rhino to care about poisoning the atmosphere? Do Hellgrowths create difficult terrain for charging?)
There's also the question of if a Dire Rhino can right itself if it's tipped over, or if it trips or fall over. If it's belly-up or on its side.
The Pinky also has the dubious advantage of Resistance to gunfire (through the thickness of their hides).
But Rhinos IRL have tough/thick hides, too, don't they? I wouldn't be surprised if this was true for a dire rhino, too, but without knowledge affirming it's true for the dire rhino, can't say for certain it is so.

....Not that a tough hide is much help, since the Dire Rhino's horn can grow to 3.048 meters! That horn is nearly twice as long as a grown man is tall! & with a 25% AP advantage, that horn can probably easily skewer Pinky, even if it doesn't kill immediately.

& not that the Pinky will have an easy time pushing it over, since: Large Size (Type 0; Reach a length of 9.144 meters[1])
It might help that being so large might mean the dire rhino would need time to turn itself around to point its front at the Pinky, but considering Pinkies are described as single-minded & no tactics other than brute force, it wouldn't care which way the rhino is pointed, & thus, wouldn't have the sense to avoid having the pointy end pointing at it.


The Dire Rhino's advantages are being a little over 25% higher in AP, being roughly 49 times higher than the Pinky's baseline Class 5 Lifting Strength, & being more skilled, due to Enhanced Senses (Have enhanced sense of smell[1]), Martial Arts (Via Weapon Focus and Improved Critical[1]; Explained here[2] and here[3]).
Not to mention, I'd trust Animalistic Intelligence to outsmart something that explicitly uses no tactics other than Brute Force, even if a rhino isn't much better; Unless the poison or such gets to it, or High vs Limitless Stamina becomes relevant before the Pinky is torn to pieces makes the Dire Rhino get tired &/or nervous, I doubt the Dire Rhino will get scared stupid or such, & it'll probably still have the sense to use the environment, such as by ramming or throwing the Pinky into trees, walls, etc., as opposed to the Pinky, which might just hit/charge the Dire Rhino over & over again.


So unless Hellifying the Environment turns out to be more devastating than I thought, Voting the Dire Rhino for 25% AP Advantage, big LS advantage, better range (If Pinky is the size of a man, the Dire Rhino's horn is nearly twice as long as the Pinky is tall!), & better intelligence & probably better Skill &/or Intelligence, too.

As is, it seems like, the Pinky's best chance is environmental Hellification to hope to wear down the Dire Rhino's Stamina before the Dire Rhino's horn gores/bashes the Pinky apart (Tough/thick hide be damned, figuratively or literally!), &/or get the Dire Rhino fallen over in the hopes that it can't get up.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Reality Warping (Passive. The demons with their presence bring their reality with them, "hellifying" the environment. This can lead to many destructive events, all of which benefit them on conquering worlds. Whether that be creating Hellgrowths or infecting the atmosphere, making it poisonous)

Anyone willing to explain which events are likely for this?
Also, since it's mentioned, would making the atmosphere Poisonous be a problem for a Dire Rhino? Then again, it has high Constitution, right? That contributes to resisting Poison in D&D, doesn't it?

If I recall correctly, the environmental modification isn't really combat applicable unless the fight lasts for very long periods of time. It took an army of demons and some bosses to make the map in DOOM look the way it does

 

[Antoniofer]

Lifting Strength: Class 50 (Due to having a strength score of 30[1] they can push at max 49 tons)

Being a huge quadupedal creature of Str 30 can only lift up to 400*4*6 = 9600 pounds or little less than 4500 kg, that is Class 5 (worthy notice, that is the maximum load, so a creature of that size and strength lifting that would have issues lifting such weights). A creature can push/drag 5 times its lifting strength according to DnD 3.xe, so little less than 22000 kg; however, our stat is named lifting strength, not pushing strength, our ratings indicate how much a character can lift, not how much they push (since lifting strength is basically pushing strength multiplied by friction coeficient, a constant generally below 1, that means that one's pushing strength is generally higher than its lifting strength; in DnD case, it decides to multiply is by 5, that is not very realistic to be honest).

 

[Peppersalt43]

Being a huge quadupedal creature of Str 30 can only lift up to 400*4*6 = 9600 pounds or little less than 4500 kg, that is Class 5 (worthy notice, that is the maximum load, so a creature of that size and strength lifting that would have issues lifting such weights). A creature can push/drag 5 times its lifting strength according to DnD 3.xe, so little less than 22000 kg; however, our stat is named lifting strength, not pushing strength, our ratings indicate how much a character can lift, not how much they push (since lifting strength is basically pushing strength multiplied by friction coeficient, a constant generally below 1, that means that one's pushing strength is generally higher than its lifting strength; in DnD case, it decides to multiply is by 5, that is not very realistic to be honest).

This won't mess up the reasoning above, right?

 

[Imaginym]

Being a huge quadupedal creature of Str 30 can only lift up to 400*4*6 = 9600 pounds or little less than 4500 kg, that is Class 5 (worthy notice, that is the maximum load, so a creature of that size and strength lifting that would have issues lifting such weights).

Oh, so the Dire Rhinocerous Page saying Class 50 for 49 tons is a mistake? Dire Rhinocerous should be Class 5?

A creature can push/drag 5 times its lifting strength according to DnD 3.xe, so little less than 22000 kg;

So, it can push 22,000 kg, but can only lift 4,500 kg?

however, our stat is named lifting strength, not pushing strength, our ratings indicate how much a character can lift, not how much they push (since lifting strength is basically pushing strength multiplied by friction coeficient, a constant generally below 1, that means that one's pushing strength is generally higher than its lifting strength; in DnD case, it decides to multiply is by 5, that is not very realistic to be honest).

it's only 4-&-a-half times higher Lifting Strength than the Pinky's Baseline Class 1, then?

 

[Antoniofer]

Not sure from where is the 49 tons coming from, going by rules (as what the profile says) its maximum lifting strength should be ~4500 kg (Class 5) and pushing strength (that is not a thing here, if some push something with X mass, then its lifting strength equals to X*friction coeficient) ~22000 kg (or Class 25).

 

[Imaginym]

Not sure from where is the 49 tons coming from, going by rules (as what the profile says) its maximum lifting strength should be ~4500 kg (Class 5) and pushing strength (that is not a thing here, if some push something with X mass, then its lifting strength equals to X*friction coeficient) ~22000 kg (or Class 25).

I see. So the Dire Rhinocerous is still about 4.5 times here in LS than the Pinky? & if Pushing Strength were a thing, it would be roughly 22,000 kg for the Dire Rhinocerous?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Not sure from where is the 49 tons coming from, going by rules (as what the profile says) its maximum lifting strength should be ~4500 kg (Class 5) and pushing strength (that is not a thing here, if some push something with X mass, then its lifting strength equals to X*friction coeficient) ~22000 kg (or Class 25).

Confirmation is required for the question above

 

[Tllmbrg]

Not sure from where is the 49 tons coming from, going by rules (as what the profile says) its maximum lifting strength should be ~4500 kg (Class 5) and pushing strength (that is not a thing here, if some push something with X mass, then its lifting strength equals to X*friction coeficient) ~22000 kg (or Class 25).

We use pushing strength since by rules you should be able to push stuff whenever
Also favourable conditions which is something like good footing from what I understand doubles how much you can push/lift so the result is actually double

 

[Tllmbrg]

Anyways unless you feel like revising how we do LS for D&D in general rn that isn’t relevant to the match and even without it Rhinoceros still outlifts and has a considerable edge so my vote still goes to it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Not sure from where is the 49 tons coming from, going by rules (as what the profile says) its maximum lifting strength should be ~4500 kg (Class 5) and pushing strength (that is not a thing here, if some push something with X mass, then its lifting strength equals to X*friction coeficient) ~22000 kg (or Class 25).

While 5th edition presented less intricate rules, it did clarify that push strength is equal to maximum lifting strength. If we went by your suggestion in the second half, the result would in fact be higher.

 

[Antoniofer]

Naturally, dragging something through smooth surfaces is way easier than dragging it through dry surface (that by itself, its requires less strength than liftingt), reason why it doubles the amount of mass that a character can drag, but this does not make the creature by itself turn stronger.

Lifting Strength is definied as how much a character can uplift, so is more reasonable to use their lifting capability than its pushing one, as people will be able to push more mass of what they can lift unless the surface is extremelly uneven.

Plus, in 5e says that ones pushing capability is twice its carrying capability (something more reasonable, as most friction coeficients in dry surfaces are around 0.5); so if you are going to give LS based in 5e, in should rewrite that, although, scores in 5e varies from 3.xe, so one would need to recalculate its new based in that edition rhyno str score.

 

[Tllmbrg]

so one would need to recalculate its new based in that edition rhyno str score.

Dire Rhinoceros as far as I’m aware has no 5e version, heck I don’t think 5e even has Rhinoceroses stat sheet

 

[Antoniofer]

No, it does not. Considering 5e carrying capablities, it would also be pretty underwhelming, as its only 15*Str (measured in pounds), and since the maximum Str score in 5e is 30 afaik, the most that the rhino can have its 1800 pounds (15*30*2[one size above medium]*2[one size above large]); I think there's few traits that can increase this value, but if any, a rhino wouldn't possesses it.

 

[Imaginym]

No, it does not. Considering 5e carrying capablities, it would also be pretty underwhelming, as its only 15*Str (measured in pounds), and since the maximum Str score in 5e is 30 afaik, the most that the rhino can have its 1800 pounds (15*30*2[one size above medium]*2[one size above large]); I think there's few traits that can increase this value, but if any, a rhino wouldn't possesses it.

5E has a stat cap?!

 

[Peppersalt43]

but if any, a rhino wouldn't possesses it.

So does that mean the reasoning above is still viable?

 

[Antoniofer]

5E has a stat cap?!

Stats in 5e are more compressed compared with previous editions (or at least, with 3e), and I don't remember seeing an score above 30 (I could be wrong) or a CR above 30.

So does that mean the reasoning above is still viable?

I was talking about to the lifting capability value in that instance. Not much into the actual debate, but I pointed out that the woolly rhino shouldn't have 49 tons lifting strength, as according to the justification, it would possesses 400*4*6 = 9600 pounds, although a creature can lift twice (although the creature can only stagger the weight if that is the case), so at the very much, the rhino would possess a LS of 19200 pounds, or little more than 8.7 tons.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Naturally, dragging something through smooth surfaces is way easier than dragging it through dry surface (that by itself, its requires less strength than liftingt), reason why it doubles the amount of mass that a character can drag, but this does not make the creature by itself turn stronger.

Lifting Strength is definied as how much a character can uplift, so is more reasonable to use their lifting capability than its pushing one, as people will be able to push more mass of what they can lift unless the surface is extremelly uneven.

Plus, in 5e says that ones pushing capability is twice its carrying capability (something more reasonable, as most friction coeficients in dry surfaces are around 0.5); so if you are going to give LS based in 5e, in should rewrite that, although, scores in 5e varies from 3.xe, so one would need to recalculate its new based in that edition rhyno str score.

I mean, sure, hence why 3.5e's carrying capacity rules clarify that the 10x cap is listed as "under optimal conditions". Under the worst possible conditions it would be only 2x, and under normal conditions it is 5x. Theoretically we could parse all of this to figure out which gives the best LS based on friction coefficient, but we don't, and I think the difference would be minimal, anyways.

Read my comment on this one.

5e states pushing, lifting, and pulling are all equal at double the carrying capacity. Carrying capacity is what you can lift unburdened, e.g., without effort and with no downside. We calculate maximum LS, not their casual stuff. Ability scores do vary but only minimally between editions, though we try to use the most consistent ability scores between them. 5e's ability score cap does not come into play 99% of the time because said cap only applies to players, monsters and such still have abilities over 20.

 

[Antoniofer]

5e states pushing, lifting, and pulling are all equal at double the carrying capacity. Carrying capacity is what you can lift unburdened, e.g., without effort and with no downside. We calculate maximum LS, not their casual stuff. Ability scores do vary but only minimally between editions, though we try to use the most consistent ability scores between them. 5e's ability score cap does not come into play 99% of the time because said cap only applies to players, monsters and such still have abilities over 20.

I see, my mistake then; however, 5e saying pushing requires the same force as lifting is an inconsistence cuz they're not the same, its an arbitrary relationship most likely made to simplify the game, although nothing stop you from using the lifting capability of the creature.

As for the rating itself, that uses its score from 3e, going by math the rhino would be capable of lifting 19200 pounds or ~8.7 tons maximum, that is Class 10 going by our page (quite consistent apparently, as its has the same score as an elephant, and according to our elephant profile, it has the same LS). How much it can push is not really relevant, as it depends of the friction and we just measure lifting strength, and can be able to push more or less than that amount of mass, depending of the circunstances.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Sure, but if the game says that, that's still their maximum LS, one way or another. This isn't like a unique case where the creators might not have realized the math behind what they're saying.

Going by 3.5e, even a normal rhino has a Strength score of 26, is Large, and a quadruped, giving it a maximum push of 36,800 lbs or more than 16 metric tons. I don't know where you're getting it wrong with the math but you really don't know what you're doing, Anton. And, again, you're either ignoring or forgetting my point about 5e- it equates push with lift. The two are the same.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ok, according to the table I see in the Player's handbook, someone with Str 26 have a maximum load of 920 lb, if large then that numbers multiply by 2, so 1840 lb, if quadrupedal, it multiply by 1.5, so 2760 lb, that's means such creature can lift staggered up to 5520 lb or 2.5 tons, so can you tell me how ar you obtaining that one result? I even do the same method with the heavy horse and the result fits (200*2*1.5 = 600, per 5 for pushing, that is 3000 lb).

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Anton.

Are you purposefully ignoring the math or what, man.

 

[Antoniofer]

Well, in case I'm missing something, you can show me how did you get that 36800 lb.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because people can't do the math and I'm getting annoyed.

26 Strength for a normal Rhino. We've established that 5e equates pushing/pulling/lifting under strain, so bear in mind that we're looking at the push/drag section. A 26 Strength equates to 920 pounds. You can push as much as five times this weight, or ten times under favorable conditions (smooth-ish ground being the example). So we have 9200 pounds. However, we're also dealing with a large quadruped- which per this, increases weight by 3x (I must admit I thought it was 4x, but still). We now have a weight of 27,600 lbs or 12.5 metric tons, Class 25. For a wildly inferior Rhino.

I don't know how you keep reading this and keep messing it up, but it isn't my problem, Anton. The creature's Lifting Strength is correct.

 

[Antoniofer]

Ok, first, you are bringing elements from one game and using it into another, push and lift are not the same in 3e, yet you using the push = lift from 5e, and that is obviously gojng to cause an inconsistency; if you going to write push = lift from 5e, uses the the score from 5e, not moving the ones from 3e.

Second, whenever someone push something in favorable conditions does not affect the stat of something in the slightless, of course if going to be able to push more in weight in ice, there's little friction, if someone pushes 2 tons through ice one is not Class 5, taking into account friction coeficient, would be actually Peak Human (ice friction coeficient tend to be 0.2, so 2000/5). Going by this, if someone can push 27600 pounds through ice, that means its Lifting Strength would be 27600/5, so 5520 pounds or 2500 kg, that is Class 5. You can notice that is actually twice the creature's maximum load, so maybe the authors actually made some math after all.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because 5e changed it to be the same thing, Anton. We will use scores from either 3.5e or 5e, it doesn't really matter.

Yes, Anton, I'm aware. However you cannot say "but the game is unrealistic". That's a silly argument. You're also fundamentally not understanding what the page is saying. They're not pushing 2 tons and getting a 5 ton weight. They're pushing 10x the actual weight. Read the words or stop arguing. I don't care which at this point, it has been explained to you multiple times.

 

[Antoniofer]

You are aware of what you are trying to do is the equivalent of, let's say, grant someone the LS to lift a car when what it did was pushing it through ice? You should notice that the last is far too easy compared to the former and thus does not represent LS.

You can't neither say pushing = lifting just after multiplying the lifting capability by a constance (this case 5 or 10), is like writting 5*lifting = pushing = lifting; you as well here can notice this is not correct.

Also, why doing to much effort ignoring the part of the table that says the creature can lift at most x, and instead, try to mix the mechanics from two different editions (for much it contradict each other) to try and say pushing and lifting are the same (and you may not notice it, but this relationship actually downgrade the character's pushing strength, as in normal conditions, pushing strength is like x3 to x1.5 times lifting strength).

 

[Antoniofer]

Btw, I apologize by draging this match to what it appears to be a Contect Revision Thread, I created an actural revision here so you can debate without unrelated interruptions.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Btw, I apologize by draging this match to what it appears to be a Contect Revision Thread, I created an actural revision here so you can debate without unrelated interruptions.

I read the revision. You apparently vouched for a class 10 LS. That would mean Dire Rhino still has an LS advantage even if the revision went through. Good to know

Do you wanna vote here at least?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Anton continues to be wrong. I don't particularly care about the match but people who do seem to be leaning in favor of the Rhino. I'll vote for the Rhino FRA, as I can think of no particular argument outside what's been discussed.

 

[DemonicDude]

Rhino FRA

 

[Pugao_03]

Rhino FRA

 

[Harith0cell]

Rhino fra.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Peppersalt43 you know, people can vote on their own polls so you could just vote for the Rhino yourself

 

[Peppersalt43]

Wait seriously? Alright!

Rhino FRA

 

[Tllmbrg]

And like that, grace

 

[Imaginym]

Lol.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Grace is over and this has been added

End of story

The battle was rather fierce as both creatures charged and rammed into one another, trying their best to knock their opponent down. However, the fight immediately ended once the rhino got its horn underneath its opponent and in a few seconds, the demon was skewered. The rhino unleashed a primal noise as it bathed in its opponent's blood.

"Well, that was unexpected. Good show, I'll call someone to clean that up" said Hellboy before leaving. The doomslayer however looked at the beast intently, an idea appearing in his head. A few days later, another portal was opened in the realm of DOOM. The demons surrounded it intently, ready to kill and devour whoever or whatever it is that exited it. A single pinky was the closest to the portal, observing it intently.

Suddenly, it was lifted into the air, skewered by a long horn. Stepping out of the portal was an armored rhino clad in steel and heavy weapons. Riding the battle rhino was the Doomguy himself and he charged into battle, the pair ripping and tearing any demon that came in their path.