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Battle cats verse 1-C revision

ah right, there is also the whole problem with Izanagi and Izanami's rating too, whether or not they're 1-D short from what their lore suggests they are. This problem wasn't really fully resolved in the previous thread. Whether they're just 6-D HDE with infinite 6-D spacetime potency, or 5-D HDE only, or plainly 7-D spacetime or whatever else, I'm not sure how to rate them given that they're suggested to be superior than Gaia and blatantly has the strongest HDE statements.
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
10 billion bumps later and finally I got 1 mod onto this thank god. FinePoint is still nowhere to be found though...
Click to expand...
Sorry. I have quite a backlog and then I've been sick for about a month which has made it a lot worse.

I haven't skipped anybody though, and in theory, will still get to everything on my list eventually.
 
I've been waiting for this day for months!
FinePoint said:
Sorry. I have quite a backlog and then I've been sick for about a month which has made it a lot worse.

I haven't skipped anybody though, and in theory, will still get to everything on my list eventually.
Click to expand...
Yeah ik, thx for the ping. When you're free hope you could verify the cosmology page (which you accepted on the old post) so I can count your vote again.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
How many characters and basically who would scale from the Tier 1 ratings? I am assuming it's mainly just God Tiers?
Click to expand...
Only God tiers and above, yes. Currently all the tier 1s profiles in the verse has been made and listed in the post, so you only need to check those out.
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
Yeah ik, thx for the ping. When you're free hope you could verify the cosmology page (which you accepted on the old post) so I can count your vote again.
Click to expand...
If another staff member has serious complaints I'll consider their argument, but until then you can just assume I still approve of it since I did before.
 
Everything seems fine, though I don't see how the 1-A part makes any sense, especially when I'm pretty sure we fight Cat God in the game, which is a contradiction to qualitative superiority for interacting with lower realms.

I also don't agree with Low 1-A. I'm pretty sure this is a very common problem in threads here, which was addressed in this thread.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I remember from last thread we ironed out the issues I had with the cosmology. Looking over it I think the Low 1-A section can be removed until evidence from the newest expansion is given, but the rest is fine.
Click to expand...
Well, the Low 1-A part is basically non-existent anyways, so I can just remove it easy.

So does this count as you agreeing to the cosmology page after the Low 1-A line is removed then?

What about the character profiles? And you're still agreeing with possibly 1-A cat god right?
Mythic381 said:
Everything seems fine, though I don't see how the 1-A part makes any sense, especially when I'm pretty sure we fight Cat God in the game, which is a contradiction to qualitative superiority for interacting with lower realms.

I also don't agree with Low 1-A. I'm pretty sure this is a very common problem in threads here, which was addressed in this thread.
Click to expand...
Dunno why people are bringing up Low 1-A now, I don't think Low 1-A was really a rating I gave to any character or even the cosmology? huh, anyways, for 1-A catgod, notice how it is just a "possibly". We fighting cat god in the game doesn't disqualify anything, and the way you're phrasing it is wrong also, it's supposed to be lower realm forcibly interacting with the true form of a being on a 1-A realm compared to them, 1-A beings can have millions of ways to interact with lower realms just fine.
 
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Acertainbcplayer said:
Dunno why people are bringing up Low 1-A now, I don't think Low 1-A was really a rating I gave to any character or even the cosmology?
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Mentioned it because it was the very last part of the cosmology page.
Acertainbcplayer said:
We fighting cat god in the game doesn't disqualify anything,
Click to expand...
My point is that dimensional beings existing in dimensional planes of existence are interacting with a 1-A being.
Acertainbcplayer said:
it's supposed to be lower realm forcibly interacting with the true form of a being on a 1-A realm compared to them
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I don't see how that doesn't disqualify it? A 1-A entity cannot interact with dimensional entities.
The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.
Click to expand...
Acertainbcplayer said:
1-A beings can have millions of ways to interact with lower realms just fine.
Click to expand...
Via stuff like manifestations or avatars or a 1-A being converting a non 1-A being to become a native of the higher realm? Sure. Literally going inside of these lower realms and fighting them? No.
Qawsedf234 said:
snip
Click to expand...
You're the 1-A expert. Could you comment on that part? I could be missing something.
 
Cosmology page finally done!!! I'll wait until tmr to add it.

Mythic381 said:
Mentioned it because it was the very last part of the cosmology page.
Click to expand...
aight
Mythic381 said:
My point is that dimensional beings existing in dimensional planes of existence are interacting with a 1-A being.
Click to expand...
No, it's a 1-A being existing in the same plane of existence as non 1-A beings and interacting with them, the method are unknown, but Cat God do have a physical body inside the game, that's all we know.
Mythic381 said:
I don't see how that doesn't disqualify it? A 1-A entity cannot interact with dimensional entities.
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They actually can, if they cannot, that either must be a very verse-specific thing, either a no-hax 1-A human on a higher plane of existence, or just a 1-A disqualifier if things escalated further. Dimensional entities affecting 1-A beings directly however, is an instant disqualifier.

And I think if a 1-A being with their entire being descended onto the lower realm, with their full 1-A construct contained inside it, then that is also a disqualifier, but that I think should be very specific to count as a solid disqualifier. This isn't about "size" but whether the 1-A character existing inside the non 1-A universe can be fully explained by said universe in a way that make them fully divisible to said universe or not.
Mythic381 said:
Via stuff like manifestations or avatars or a 1-A being converting a non 1-A being to become a native of the higher realm? Sure. Literally going inside of these lower realms and fighting them? No.
Click to expand...
Yes you're right, and the point is none of these disqualify the Cat God. You know Cat God is literally john ponor himself right? And I don't even say that as a meme or something, I even mentioned in the last thread that he can even go to the real world and interacting with the fans (yes that is a real event). Point is, despite this being just 4th wall shenanigans, it clearly hints that Cat God clearly has a form of power that allow him to pull these off without anything affecting himself whatsoever.

These gives 0 solid rating, only enough for a possibly 1-A, however it further makes it so that disqualifying cat god just because we fought his version inside the game (that didn't even kill him btw) is ignoring everything else. Even if Cat God gets serious within the game, that also doesn't disqualify anything whatsoever, the "possibly 1-A" rating only affects the version of cat god that lives irl and do all the 4th wall breaking thing, the Cat God in game is a solid 1-C.
 
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Acertainbcplayer said:
No, it's a 1-A being existing in the same plane of existence as non 1-A beings and interacting with them, the method are unknown, but Cat God do have a physical body inside the game, that's all we know.
Click to expand...
That's literally the same thing I just said? Is it implied the "physical body" is some sort of lower manifestation?
Acertainbcplayer said:
They actually can, if they cannot, that either must be a very verse-specific thing, either a no-hax 1-A human on a higher plane of existence, or just a 1-A disqualifier if things escalated further. Dimensional entities affecting 1-A beings directly however, is an instant disqualifier.
Click to expand...
That's entirely not true? I already quoted the FAQ on that matter, not to mention it being used to disqualify Doom for example, as by qualitative superiority logic, any being that exists on the same plane of existence as the 1-A entity would also be 1-A.
Acertainbcplayer said:
Yes you're right, and the point is none of these disqualify the Cat God. You know Cat God is literally john ponor himself right? And I don't even say that as a meme or something, I even mentioned in the last thread that he can even go to the real world and interacting with the fans (yes that is a real event). Point is, despite this being just 4th wall shenanigans, it clearly hints that Cat God clearly has a form of power that allow him to pull these off without anything affecting himself whatsoever.
Click to expand...
My point here is simple. A 1-A being can't simply travel between the real world and the fictional world, I'll even use the R>F page as reference for that.
Click to expand...
I just want to simply know if Cat God is the one actively travelling between these worlds or just uses avatars.
Acertainbcplayer said:
These gives 0 solid rating, only enough for a possibly 1-A, however it further makes it so that disqualifying cat god just because we fought his version inside the game (that didn't even kill him btw) is ignoring everything else. Even if Cat God gets serious within the game, that also doesn't disqualify anything whatsoever, the "possibly 1-A" rating only affects the version of cat god that lives irl and do all the 4th wall breaking thing, the Cat God in game is a solid 1-C.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I disagree with the "possibility" rating because I don't see anything that doesn't contradict the current standards for qualitative superiority.
 
Mythic381 said:
That's literally the same thing I just said? Is it implied the "physical body" is some sort of lower manifestation?

That's entirely not true? I already quoted the FAQ on that matter, not to mention it being used to disqualify Doom for example, as by qualitative superiority logic, any being that exists on the same plane of existence as the 1-A entity would also be 1-A.
Click to expand...
I just want to point out a non battle cats related thing, is that I don't think a 1-A being physically travel to a non 1-A realm is a disqualifier UNLESS the entire physical being of the 1-A being itself can be explainable and contained within the non 1-A realm. What I mean by this is that, example: A god with a non-physical body descended to the physical world with his entire being, but despite him appearing inside the physical world, none of its laws or constraint applies to the God, if any, that's the God making himself so. In this case, would you even say that the God in the physical world is a form of lower manifestation? And would you even be able to disqualify him of 1-A despite him not being constraint whatsoever by the world he is appearing in?

to quote again: The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

This is not talking about a 1-A being appearing inside the lower realm with their entire being, this however is talking about how the power of the being itself can be affected or reached by any form of 1 sided relationship from the lower realm, which means if I can force myself to punch the God and hurt him without his approval of me being able to even do that to begin with, that is a disqualifier. However, there are none of these that can be applied to Cat God.

Below are TBC related stuff:
Mythic381 said:
My point here is simple. A 1-A being can't simply travel between the real world and the fictional world, I'll even use the R>F page as reference for that.

I just want to simply know if Cat God is the one actively travelling between these worlds or just uses avatars.

Yeah, and I disagree with the "possibility" rating because I don't see anything that doesn't contradict the current standards for qualitative superiority.
Click to expand...
I know what you're saying, you're saying that Cat God, with his entire being, physically traveled to and contained by the game will disqualify him entirely, but as seen in your example:
You can notice that this is talking about how the character inside those fictional worlds physically harming the the user of the book (well, this is smurf if not for the following line) and those fictional beings can even travel to the original worlds. This is what I said, instant disqualifier due to the fictional being making it so that the original worlds being divisible to them without the power that allow them to reach it being mentioned to come from anything from the original world.

While for Cat God, all we know is:
1: He has a version of him inside the game, we can fight cat god, he may provide assitance, he has limitations within said world, intentionally by him or not. He jokes about everything and never really went serious on anything, and he cannot be killed at all and will just always come back the same.

2: He mentioned "real life" and he lives in it, he has performed some extreme 4th wall breaking feat involving him going to real life and interact with the fans, etc... He also has a huge influence over the plot mechanic of the game, casually.

Notice the difference? We don't know the exact relationship between 1 and 2 nor does the cats came to real life and beating Cat God live either, there are simply 0 disqualifier born from any of these. So you can't say "the character inside the game can just forcefully hurt Cat God's true form" or "Cat God didn't use an avatar inside the game" or "Cat God is hurt by beings inside the game without him first enabling it" as a fact, but a possibility that exists, thus "possibly 1-A"
 
Acertainbcplayer said:
I just want to point out a non battle cats related thing, is that I don't think a 1-A being physically travel to a non 1-A realm is a disqualifier UNLESS the entire physical being of the 1-A being itself can be explainable and contained within the non 1-A realm. What I mean by this is that, example: A god with a non-physical body descended to the physical world with his entire being, but despite him appearing inside the physical world, none of its laws or constraint applies to the God, if any, that's the God making himself so. In this case, would you even say that the God in the physical world is a form of lower manifestation? And would you even be able to disqualify him of 1-A despite him not being constraint whatsoever by the world he is appearing in?
Click to expand...
That's not accepted within this wiki's standards. You can see that explained pretty well in the R>F disqualified examples section like I mentioned earlier.
Acertainbcplayer said:
to quote again: The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

This is not talking about a 1-A being appearing inside the lower realm with their entire being, this however is talking about how the power of the being itself can be affected or reached by any form of 1 sided relationship from the lower realm, which means if I can force myself to punch the God and hurt him without his approval of me being able to even do that to begin with, that is a disqualifier. However, there are none of these that can be applied to Cat God.
Click to expand...
The fact that dimensional creatures are able to not only breach the barriers of the Void but travel through it is an automatic disqualification.
Also like... the father resting in the Void created spaces within the Void that can be travelled between. There's no indication of a qualitative foundational difference there. I think OP just doesn't know about this rule:
Click to expand...
This is from an actual 1-A denied thread for the reason said above.
To be even more precise from the FAQ:
However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.
Click to expand...
This is from the "Q: Are there any disqualifiers for qualitative superiority?" section. It literally mentions that a way to bypass the idea is for characters to be converted into natives of the higher reality by a 1-A being, meaning that them existing in those higher planes is a contradiction in itself, unless they're converted into the higher plane by a 1-A being.
Acertainbcplayer said:
You can notice that this is talking about how the character inside those fictional worlds physically harming the the user of the book (well, this is smurf if not for the following line) and those fictional beings can even travel to the original worlds. This is what I said, instant disqualifier due to the fictional being making it so that the original worlds being divisible to them without the power that allow them to reach it being mentioned to come from anything from the original world.
Click to expand...
It is, but there would be absolutely 0 reason for it to mention them being able to travel between both worlds if that in itself isn't a contradiction too, which it is.
Acertainbcplayer said:
1: He has a version of him inside the game, we can fight cat god, he may provide assitance, he has limitations within said world, intentionally by him or not. He jokes about everything and never really went serious on anything, and he cannot be killed at all and will just always come back the same.

2: He mentioned "real life" and he lives in it, he has performed some extreme 4th wall breaking feat involving him going to real life and interact with the fans, etc... He also has a huge influence over the plot mechanic of the game, casually.
Click to expand...
Neither of these are related to my point. I never mentioned power or 4th wall breaking. My whole point is that per wiki standards, a 1-A being cannot travel between the real world and the fictional world, and it's also impossible for a character native to the fictional world, to somehow travel to the real world.

Here's some comments from knowledgeable moderators on the matter:
To add to that, IT letting Goku pop directly inside Subspace would just stand in direct contradiction to 1-A, since 1-A in the new system doesn't permit lower-reality characters to access it save through unorthodox indirect means or through interference from something in a higher reality. See here. So this already very ambiguous case just instantly collapses when that factor is introduced.
Click to expand...
 
It seems you're 100% misunderstanding the entire point you're making, and ended up proving that I am right yet again. Here's the thing:
Mythic381 said:
That's not accepted within this wiki's standards. You can see that explained pretty well in the R>F disqualified examples section like I mentioned earlier.


This is from an actual 1-A denied thread for the reason said above.
To be even more precise from the FAQ:

This is from the "Q: Are there any disqualifiers for qualitative superiority?" section. It literally mentions that a way to bypass the idea is for characters to be converted into natives of the higher reality by a 1-A being, meaning that them existing in those higher planes is a contradiction in itself, unless they're converted into the higher plane by a 1-A being.

It is, but there would be absolutely 0 reason for it to mention them being able to travel between both worlds if that in itself isn't a contradiction too, which it is.
Click to expand...
Your points and the scans you gave does not align whatsoever, please read carefully:
However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

This part mentions about LOWER beings interacting with HIGHER beings through higher means influencing them, not wholely through what they have access on their realm. I think you're completely misunderstanding this part also:
The fact that dimensional creatures are able to not only breach the barriers of the Void but travel through it is an automatic disqualification.
Also like... the father resting in the Void created spaces within the Void that can be travelled between. There's no indication of a qualitative foundational difference there. I think OP just doesn't know about this rule:

This doesn't mention anything about the Father allowing himself to pass through between the Void and other dimensions being a disqualifier, read carefully again, I even highlighted the important part for you. If the father inside the Void does something to allow dimensional creatures to be the same quality as the void to pass through it, then it doesn't disqualify anything, but the father here instead created spaces within the void that can be travelled between, which doesn't indicate any form of qualitative difference whatsoever.

BASICALLY:
You're saying: 1-A beings cannot interact with non 1-A beings directly
But again, the wiki never forbid that, but:

non 1-A beings cannot directly intefere with 1-A being or structure without relying on the power GRANTED to them from said structure, if they forcibly attain the power to do so without it being the rule of said 1-A realm, then it is a disqualifier.

NOT

1-A beings interacting or appearing to a lower world without first creating a lower projection is a disqualifier

The wiki never said anything like that, and I'm not sure where you're stuck at to keep getting back to that same conclusion. The only way for it to be a disqualifier when a 1-A character goes to a lower realm is:

1: They're fully contained by said realm. This isn't about "size", but about ontology, if the being isn't being forcibly controlled or governed by the lower reality's law, space, time, whatever, then they can go to the lower realm and do whatever they want, freely.

2: The beings of the lower realm can interact with them without their will. As I already mentioned in my previous example, a 1-A being can allow lower realm beings to interact with them, "defeating" them or whatever, or even kill them. Regardless of the extremety of the consequence to the 1-A being, if all of that is being enabled by the 1-A being's power then it does not disqualify anything whatsoever.
Mythic381 said:
Neither of these are related to my point. I never mentioned power or 4th wall breaking. My whole point is that per wiki standards, a 1-A being cannot travel between the real world and the fictional world, and it's also impossible for a character native to the fictional world, to somehow travel to the real world.
Click to expand...
It is, you're asking if Cat God are implied to use an avatar or not, but that does not matter here, the rating is "possibly 1-A" for a reason. I pointed out that there are currently 0 relationship between the Cat God in the real world and the Cat God we fought in game other than "they are the same person". We don't know anything more than that, we don't know if he used an avatar or not, we don't know if the cats interacting and defeating him is because of him enabling it or because the cat forcefully did it by themselves or not.

Your point only disqualify a solid 1-A rating, not a possibly 1-A rating.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
This is where you're stuck at:
a 1-A being cannot travel between the real world and the fictional world, and it's also impossible for a character native to the fictional world, to somehow travel to the real world.

The bolded part is incorrect, and the non-bolded part is 100% correct under the context that they don't do that through a power from a higher realm or forcibly attain said power by their own realm's power.

You're adding an extra rule that doesn't allow a 1-way arrow to point from above to below, when it only forbids a 1-way arrow to point from below to above without the above's approval. I simply doesn't see any examples or rules that forbid the first point.
Mythic381 said:
Here's some comments from knowledgeable moderators on the matter:
Click to expand...
Still mean the same thing I stated above.

Eh, I think you should just ask Qawsed or go to QnA tbh, we should just conclude this here, Qawsed also agreed to the rating so I'm not gonna elaborate further, better asking the mods
 
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Just noticed that I should separate Cat God profile's possibly 1-A rating and character profiles as 2 separate vote (since Qawsed only agreed to the rating, haven't gave me anything about the other stuff on his profile, other than also his 1-C rating because he agreed with the Cosmology page), so I did.
Qawsedf234 said:
Yeaj
Click to expand...
Since you agreed to the cosmology page, do you agree with the Tier 1 profiles? Since the cosmology page covered all of their tier 1 ratings already.
 
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