Bartolomeo vs Undyne

[WarriorWare]

Just ignore him, guys.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Undyne is weak, she would get crushed by a normal soldier with no problem. Especially without Undying, if Asgore couldn't fell a single human in the great war, then Undyne gets crushed by anyone who is superhuman. The more killing intent a human has, the more damage it will do to a monster.

Monsters who don't want to fight and get ambushed by humanity =/= monsters who are willing to kill. If one human > one monster always, there wouldn't be six dead humans in the Underground.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Undyne is weak, she would get crushed by a normal soldier with no problem. Especially without Undying, if Asgore couldn't fell a single human in the great war, then Undyne gets crushed by anyone who is superhuman. The more killing intent a human has, the more damage it will do to a monster.

Monsters who don't want to fight and get ambushed by humanity =/= monsters who are willing to kill. If one human > one monster always, there wouldn't be six dead humans in the Underground.

6 human kids. I'm quoting the game on this one, but monsters aside from Asgore are pretty weak in comparison to others. They went to war, and they lost miserably when the humans had literally lost no one. This is a human that qualifies as a superhuman, so how does Undyne fair here? Even in the library it's stated "Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL.If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken.And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill…Um, let's end the chapter here…"

 

[WarriorWare]

So how strong of a SOUL are we talkin' here?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Did you listen to me or did you just flat out ignore me?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

6 human kids. I'm quoting the game on this one, but monsters aside from Asgore are pretty weak in comparison to others. They went to war, and they lost miserably when the humans had literally lost no one. This is a human that qualifies as a superhuman, so how does Undyne fair here? Even in the library it's stated "Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL.If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken.And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill…Um, let's end the chapter here…"

You know who else is a kid? Frisk.

Age doesn't determine the power of one's soul.

Plus, as I said, an army of hateful humans willing to kill who suddenly begin warring against a relatively peaceful race are pretty obviously going to have a massive advantage.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Did you listen to me or did you just flat out ignore me?

Your point doesn't make sense, because in Undertale it flat out says that Monsters lack a physical body and are made of magic... Sure enough, the person she is pitted against is made of flesh and blood, giving him a pretty good advantage here. Sure she can dish out damage, but she wouldn't be able to take many hits from a violent human, especially a powerful one.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Your point doesn't make sense, because in Undertale it flat out says that Monsters lack a physical body and are made of magic... Sure enough, the person she is pitted against is made of flesh and blood, giving him a pretty good advantage here. Sure she can dish out damage, but she wouldn't be able to take many hits from a violent human, especially a powerful one.

Killing intent is legit going to hurt, you're right on that.

Barto doesn't get the soul advantage, though, because human souls in One Piece =/= human souls in Undertale.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The fact that Human >>> Monsters is from their soul in the Undertale verse, like they said, a human's soul is much more powerful than a human's, but not every human in fiction has that kinda of soul.

And like I said, Undyne has flat out Superhuman feat, saying that any human Superhuman can beat her is dumb, she's obviously much stronger than that.

 

[Squid_peanut]

the reason killing intent is said to be so effective is because this is from a verse where people can reconstitute their bodies and manipulate time purely through force of will. that's not something a normal fictional human can do, so the killing intent thing is super subjective

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

6 human kids. I'm quoting the game on this one, but monsters aside from Asgore are pretty weak in comparison to others. They went to war, and they lost miserably when the humans had literally lost no one. This is a human that qualifies as a superhuman, so how does Undyne fair here? Even in the library it's stated "Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL.If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken.And the crueller the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill…Um, let's end the chapter here…"

You know who else is a kid? Frisk.
Age doesn't determine the power of one's soul.

Plus, as I said, an army of hateful humans willing to kill who suddenly begin warring against a relatively peaceful race are pretty obviously going to have a massive advantage.

When was it that they mentioned that they were ambushed? I don't remember that being said, though I remember them saying humans had started it.

Monsters were taking on combat too, nothing says they were not willing to kill, they just mention that humans were too powerful and utterly destroyed them. That being said even someone who could be assumed as Undyne equal, if not greater, Gerson was battling in this war.(Undyne states in a conversation that he was her idol, and he too recalls that she followed her around when he did battle, usually attacking a mail man.) If with him on the field, and they are unable to kill a SINGLE human, I think that says something about the physical and spiritual difference between humans and monsters. They repeatidly make emphasis on this through out the game, and it's impossible to ignore.

 

[Pocket-Chu]

So there are quite a few different opinions here, but mostly it seems like this match is inconclusive/a draw, so are we going to add it to their profiles as such or are we goin to wait for more opinions?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If with him on the field, and they are unable to kill a SINGLE human, I think that says something about the physical and spiritual difference between humans and monsters. They repeatidly make emphasis on this through out the game, and it's impossible to ignore.
Yes, humans in Undertale.

Is Barto from Undertale?

Can he control the universe at his full potential?

Can his soul stop him from dying through sheer willpower even if his body is destroyed?

If the answer to any of these is 'no', he doesn't have the same advantage humans in Undertale do.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

I thought that you said all humans didn't have that power, and that only a small few had it. Frisk being the only one I can really think of, Chara wasn't using SAVEs.

 

[WarriorWare]

Six human souls turned Flowey into a multiverse buster so

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Only a small few do. The advantages were for different reasons.

If the first is true, his soul is more powerful.

If the second is true, he's far too powerful for her.

If the third is true, she can't kill him.

If none of these are true, the advantage is moot, because Barto does not have the same soul humans in Undertale do, and cannot do the things theirs can with its full potential.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Six human souls turned Flowey into a multiverse buster so

Was it Multiverse? It seemed more like he had full control over their timeline, and was capable of resetting it over and over to what he saw fit. I don't doubt that Asriel Dreemurr was capable, but Flowey seems a little skeptical since if that were true he really wouldn't need another soul in the first place.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Was it Multiverse? It seemed more like he had full control over their timeline, and was capable of resetting it over and over to what he saw fit. I don't doubt that Asriel Dreemurr was capable, but Flowey seems a little skeptical since if that were true he really wouldn't need another soul in the first place.

I actually had a big comment explaining this, but I want to spare this thread from that, too.

Anyway, Flowey only needed seven souls (or the equivalent) to regain his old form, hence why he couldn't become Asriel when he had only six.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Six human souls turned Flowey into a multiverse buster so

Was it Multiverse? It seemed more like he had full control over their timeline, and was capable of resetting it over and over to what he saw fit. I don't doubt that Asriel Dreemurr was capable, but Flowey seems a little skeptical since if that were true he really wouldn't need another soul in the first place.

it was just changed do to a recent and lengthy dicussio

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Only a small few do. The advantages were for different reasons.
If the first is true, his soul is more powerful.

If the second is true, he's far too powerful for her.

If the third is true, she can't kill him.

If none of these are true, the advantage is moot, because Barto does not have the same soul humans in Undertale do, and cannot do the things theirs can with its full potential.

Alright, I get where you're going with it. I still think his phsyical body is still an advantage in durability to her own. Even if those things don't apply here, monsters are indeed not as durable as their strength makes them out to be, with an exception of Asgore, who while one of the most hesitant to battle was capable of taking as many hits as, if not many more hits than normal undyne.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright, I get where you're going with it. I still think his phsyical body is still an advantage in durability to her own. Even if those things don't apply here, monsters are indeed not as durable as their strength makes them out to be, with an exception of Asgore, who while one of the most hesitant to battle was capable of taking as many hits as, if not many more hits than normal undyne.

Well, Asgore is one of the strongest monsters, after all. He's a big pushover because he usually won't fight or engage in conflict, not because he can't.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Only a small few do. The advantages were for different reasons.
If the first is true, his soul is more powerful.

If the second is true, he's far too powerful for her.

If the third is true, she can't kill him.

If none of these are true, the advantage is moot, because Barto does not have the same soul humans in Undertale do, and cannot do the things theirs can with its full potential.

Alright, I get where you're going with it. I still think his phsyical body is still an advantage in durability to her own. Even if those things don't apply here, monsters are indeed not as durable as their strength makes them out to be, with an exception of Asgore, who while one of the most hesitant to battle was capable of taking as many hits as, if not many more hits than normal undyne.

granted, but again those are from different standards and statistics can be temperarily increased via determination which Undyne has proven to possess

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

Alright, I get where you're going with it. I still think his phsyical body is still an advantage in durability to her own. Even if those things don't apply here, monsters are indeed not as durable as their strength makes them out to be, with an exception of Asgore, who while one of the most hesitant to battle was capable of taking as many hits as, if not many more hits than normal undyne.

Well, Asgore is one of the strongest monsters, after all. He's a big pushover because he usually won't fight or engage in conflict, not because he can't.

I'm aware, he would probably be able to kill Frisk in one shot assuming he was trying and Frisk wasn't VERY determined.

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

That's also really a factor that applies to when Undyne HAS a reason to be determined, with Frisk to protect everyone, which let her survive passed a normal monsters death, she was still really weak, and in Chara's case where they were going to destroy EVERYTHING letting her mega-evolve into something that would rival a powerful human.

 

[Squid_peanut]

That's also really a factor that applies to when Undyne HAS a reason to be determined, with Frisk to protect everyone, which let her survive passed a normal monsters death, she was still really weak, and in Chara's case where they were going to destroy EVERYTHING letting her mega-evolve into something that would rival a powerful human.

powerful humans are not multiverse level

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

That's also really a factor that applies to when Undyne HAS a reason to be determined, with Frisk to protect everyone, which let her survive passed a normal monsters death, she was still really weak, and in Chara's case where they were going to destroy EVERYTHING letting her mega-evolve into something that would rival a powerful human.

powerful humans are not multiverse level

Powerful enough to create a barrier that made Asriel use most of his power to destroy. Frisk nor Chara were strong enough to destroy it on their own.

 

[Squid_peanut]

That's also really a factor that applies to when Undyne HAS a reason to be determined, with Frisk to protect everyone, which let her survive passed a normal monsters death, she was still really weak, and in Chara's case where they were going to destroy EVERYTHING letting her mega-evolve into something that would rival a powerful human.

powerful humans are not multiverse level

Powerful enough to create a barrier that made Asriel use most of his power to destroy. Frisk nor Chara were strong enough to destroy it on their own.

yes seven of the most determined and magically apt humans from the Undertale verse, I was more saying that specifying Undertale humans is necessary here

 

[XXBeerusTheDestroyerXx]

That's also really a factor that applies to when Undyne HAS a reason to be determined, with Frisk to protect everyone, which let her survive passed a normal monsters death, she was still really weak, and in Chara's case where they were going to destroy EVERYTHING letting her mega-evolve into something that would rival a powerful human.

powerful humans are not multiverse level

Powerful enough to create a barrier that made Asriel use most of his power to destroy. Frisk nor Chara were strong enough to destroy it on their own.

yes seven of the most determined and magically apt humans from the Undertale verse, I was more saying that specifying Undertale humans is necessary here

I'm just referencing the fact she's the only one able to take hits from Chara, which is something because his hate, violent tendencies, and all of the above are basically a monsters Kryptonite, all of which she takes seemingly with no problems.

 

[Squid_peanut]

okay, and it seems less that hate is an elemental weakness so to speak and more that U. humans are extremely latently powerful and their emotion can trigger them

 

[Notadeadguy]

Scoreboard: Bartolomeo: 2

Undyne: 2

And everyone else agrees with a draw.

Anyone still has room to argue or are we done?

 

[Gnomishness]

It's close and it's heated.

Lets wait for one more person to enter and judge before declaring a winner.

I don't have much experience here, but as far as I can tell, this was a Good thread all around.

It deserves to be memorialized as a conclusive battle.

 

[Notadeadguy]

... Ah screw it, this is pretty inconclusive for now, so when we get new info on Bartolomeo's we can add that and decide an outcome.

 

[Sperk]

You guys keep leaving out a crucial detail on Undyne's end. Undyne is more then capable of standing up to Asgore, she fought with him as a child, and then Asgore had trained her from then on, and during her final session with Asgore, she sent him to the ground. And this could likely have been a No-Holds-Barred match, meaning Asgore could have been going all out, but this is only my speculation. Yes, Asgore is the most powerful monster you can face, and Undyne is the third boss in Undertale, yet she can battle Asgore with little to no problem. I say this can grant Undyne the victory over Barto.

 

[Notadeadguy]

You guys keep leaving out a crucial detail on Undyne's end. Undyne is more then capable of standing up to Asgore, she fought with him as a child, and then Asgore had trained her from then on, and during her final session with Asgore, she sent him to the ground. And this could likely have been a No-Holds-Barred match, meaning Asgore could have been going all out, but this is only my speculation. Yes, Asgore is the most powerful monster you can face, and Undyne is the third boss in Undertale, yet she can battle Asgore with little to no problem. I say this can grant Undyne the victory over Barto.

Asgore being the strongest?

I thought that title belonged to Asriel or Sans

 

[Gnomishness]

Your misplacing the context for Asgore being knocked down.

It's like a little kid finally managing to land a good hit on their father for the first time.

It didn't happen because Undyne was stronger. Just because it was bound to happen eventually.

Determined Undyne is genuinely much stronger then Asgore is, but in base, even game mechanics agree, Asgore is Undyne's superior in battle.

 

[Sperk]

This is assuming it's been going on for years though. We don't know how long Undyne was trained by Asgore exactly, I'm just providing a possible answer to that question.

 

[Sperk]

You guys keep leaving out a crucial detail on Undyne's end. Undyne is more then capable of standing up to Asgore, she fought with him as a child, and then Asgore had trained her from then on, and during her final session with Asgore, she sent him to the ground. And this could likely have been a No-Holds-Barred match, meaning Asgore could have been going all out, but this is only my speculation. Yes, Asgore is the most powerful monster you can face, and Undyne is the third boss in Undertale, yet she can battle Asgore with little to no problem. I say this can grant Undyne the victory over Barto.

Asgore being the strongest?

I thought that title belonged to Asriel or Sans

Not neccesarily, Asriel is only a little kid, yes his attacks were powerful, but he had the human souls, he's not that powerful normally. and Sans is only the most powerful if he has to be. Asgore at his base is the most powerful. Yes, One could argue Sans is by technicality, but his attacks only deal one damage, the game states he's the weakest for a good reason, It's just KR that can get you killed, or set up to be killed, and his ridiculous DPS because he ignores invincibility frames, but that's still only one damage.

 

[Notadeadguy]

And... This still doesn't prove your point as to how she can beat Barto.

We've already said that Bartolomeo can keep up his Barrier for as long as he wants so even with all that training there's no proof that she can break it.

 

[Sperk]

Well, she doesn't have to break it. like people have said earlier she'll eventually figure out how to generate spears inside his Barrier, and Undyne's not one to tire out easily. I'd give this fight to Undyne just because Barto's Barrier won't be able to defend him forever.

 

[Notadeadguy]

^you know this match was already decided...

And you still need to convince everyone else