Bang VS Sebas

[Theluki0909]

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[Theluki0909]

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[Moritzva]

Non-combative spells are decently 'casual' in my eyes when it comes to AP.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

You know, when you realise the NPCs are only a couple of years old, the less skill matters. I think Bang probably takes this

 

[Theluki0909]

3-3

 

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

You know, when you realise the NPCs are only a couple of years old, the less skill matters. I think Bang probably takes this

The NPC's age doesn't really matter as they were all programed to be incredibly skilled.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

They are influenced by their settings and creators, with the former being the main reason they are the way they are. They know what abilities they have and how to activate them, not how to outskill their opponent or to what degree. Which reminds me of the 'PKing for Dummies' book.

With a close enough gap in capabilities, I can't see current Sebas winning without his possible future abilities.

 

[Moritzva]

I wouldn't say "They are a few years old thus they aren't experienced" as a reason, since Sebas is seen as superior to just about everyone in The New World, and Nazarick guardians are known for superhuman abilities - We don't say Demiurge is below average because he's technically only a few years old, yeah? He's a genius. And Sebas is a pretty darn skilled guy, even if less skilled. Iirc, he's the most skilled in Nazarick by WoG.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Actually, Muchacho has a point, but that's less a matter of their age and more that they really don't have much beyond their memories of when they were in the game and the stuff they derive from their settings.

The battle against Shalltear made it clear. As far as using their skills, the guardians aren't even on Ainz's knees. Ainz even notes he would have scurried the hell out if Shalltear hadn't acted the way he wanted to make her act and used her skills more efficiently. Demiurge likewise is a genius, but didn't understand the finer subtleties of Ainz's actions in his battle with Shalltear (even if she does get better after that).

But that really has no bearing on Sebas' hand to hand skill, being tactical and knowing how to use your body/weapons for maximum efficiency aren't the exact same.

 

[Moritzva]

To be fair like half of Ainz's plan was kept a secret, involved prep time, and used goddamn cash shop items Demiurge definitely couldn't have been predicted.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

True, but Demiurge still needed to be explained some more simple things even by the end of the fight and mostly took the stuff on the battle at face value.

Anyways, Sebas' is still very skilled. But I wouldn't use comparisons to New World dwellers, they are so far above them they'd destroy them even without skill.

 

[Moritzva]

Evileye vs Entoma actually shows that it's possible to compare them when they're closer in actual abilities/strength. Sebas is, strictly, the best melee fighter in Nazarick - above Ainz, who was able to out-maneuver Go-Gin, who is one of the greatest gladiators in The Empire, even above it's strongest warriors.

 

[Apeironaxim]

he's the most skilled h2h combatant in Nazarick iirc, with Ainz saying he could "sweep away anyone before him" in h2h

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Yeah, but they barely have a level difference and Evileye needed to abuse a very specific spell. As far as I am aware though, the best melee fighter would be Cocytus, hand-to-hand expert would be better way to call it.

Wasn't Go Gin estimated to be comparable to mostly a Silver Rank if not for his racial abilities? I know he's skilled, but I thought a big slice of that was his super regen and higher stats. He even had a complex about it.

 

[Apeironaxim]

without his racial abilities he would be around a silver rank in pure strength iirc, nothing to do with skill afaik

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I see, makes more sense.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Sebas really needs more info on him

like, even if we could use stuff from Mass for the Dead, he doesn't have anything notable

i get he's a monk so he prob won't have much hax, but still

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Using NW reminds me Gazef Stronoff and who could match him in skill if everything was equal against the sword wielding NPCs .

Also like I said, their settings are what made them. Just because one is written as a supergenius outside of combat doesn't mean the rest are keikaku masters in combat. Which again, brings Punitto Mo's book into the convo that Ainz believed would raise their technical skill, although at some point I do remember him stating that due to it, he has an edge over the guardians.

Also arcadia scan shows Ainz has a good chance of victory against Sebas in h2h combat, 50% chance if he is in a disadvantegous position. I highly doubt much has changed for the LN.

 

[Moritzva]

Fairly sure literal WoG places Sebas as more skilled than Ainz in melee. Ainz would definitely need Perfect Warrior, but even then, I see zero possibility where Ainz can melee a Level 100 NPC like Sebas without a lot of planning beforehand, such as with Shalltear.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Hm? What WoG?

And I think that would be more to compensate for other abilities of Sebas... if... we knew more of his abilities...

Can we just mind hax everyone and his mom to fight Ainz so we can finally see some more shit from them? I think it is a perfect plan.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Even an average soldier is more skilled than Ainz in h2h combat. He is still under the tutelage of Cocytus that is obvious.

Victory is what matters, prep or not he would outsmart them not due to his superior intellect but due to his overall tactics he has probably stolen from Punitto. Also Author ranked them based on combat strength with no cheats (items/buffs), just using their bodies. I would be surprised if Sebas the monk didn't rank high.

 

[FDrybob]

Hm? What WoG?

From the discussion thread:

was going through some misc stuff and found a rough little list by Maruyama ranking the Guardians' skill in hand to hand (lot of stipulations though)
Their strength in hand-to-hand combat (tentative) is as follows. However, this list supposes that there are no buffs [bafu] and are not equipped with even the minimum amount of magic items, and also they are ranked higher on the list even if the prospects of victory are 1% higher.

Serious [honki] Sebas > Cocytous > Aura > Shalltear = Sebas > Demiurge ┬╗ Solution ┬╗ Ainz ┬╗ Narberal.

so with the emphasis of serious, does that mean that first Sebas entry is just like, casual Sebas?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Looking over it, it's dated as 2010. Two years before first LN release...

 

[Moritzva]

Even an average soldier is more skilled than Ainz in h2h combat. He is still under the tutelage of Cocytus that is obvious.
Victory is what matters, prep or not he would outsmart them not due to his superior intellect but due to his overall tactics he has probably stolen from Punitto. Also Author ranked them based on combat strength with no cheats (items/buffs), just using their bodies. I would be surprised if Sebas the monk didn't rank high.

I would definitely say Go-Gin is more skilled than an 'average' soldier.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Cheating doesn't count.

My vote is for Bang for now.

 

[Theluki0909]

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[Moritzva]

I'm sticking with Sebas. The AP is the nail in the coffin here.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Bang FRA.

 

[Phoenks]

Unfortunately all we have for OPM is a bunch of upscales so characters are quite downplayed at the momment.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The AP doesn't mean much to me. I think they are much closer than they sound, and Garou already shows the martial art can divert one-shotting attacks easily.

 

[Moritzva]

The AP doesn't mean much to me. I think they are much closer than they sound, and Garou already shows the martial art can divert one-shotting attacks easily.

One-shots aren't equalized across verses, so unfortunately. And when two are so closely matched, AP can mean a lot.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

They aren't equalized indeed, but it doesn't change the fact that getting destroyed in a single hit requires a notable difference, and the opposite hasn't really been shown in OPM. Especially when the difference is 4x at best.

 

[Theluki0909]

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[Moritzva]

They aren't equalized indeed, but it doesn't change the fact that getting destroyed in a single hit requires a notable difference, and the opposite hasn't really been shown in OPM. Especially when the difference is 4x at best.

The difference, before upscaling, is more than x4. Bang's upscaling is better, but I still say Sebas has a noticable AP advantage here.

 

[Bob8999]

take the vs out of the thread title and you have what a bunch of people want to do.

 

[Theluki0909]

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[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Is not simply that upscaling is better. The value he scales to is a monster that is far below Dragon monsters, which he can fight with normally, and one of which he could one shot while weak and tired with abandonement after it transformed to become even stronger.

Though I think this has been argued enough. Only thing to wait now is for people to vote after seeing the arguments.

 

[Theluki0909]

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[Phoenks]

Voting Bang. I feel that his scaling chain is enough to prove he is AT LEAST at the same level.

Plus, he definitely has the skill advantage.

 

[Theluki0909]

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