BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Soulking22334]

I have always found this idea silly, the source of shinigami offense entailing both kido and zanpakuto comes from the same source they aren't seperate, what makes one kido more powerful than another is the level of reiyorku used. Urahara can utilize the same level of energy in his zanpakuto that he can use in his kido attacks. if his kido potency is on aizen level then the rest of his combat abilities should be the same.

kido mastery: Let me introduce myself

 

[Mommyleona]

This is like saying what is the point of magic if you have a sword lmao

No it isnt

kido have different utilities that zanpakuto can't achieve and EVERYTIME urahara uses kido it's because of the special property of that kido not because his kido is millions of times stronger than his zanpakuto lo

he does use kido multiple times because its stronger, people throughout the series constantly either use kido because its stronger than their regular moves, or the opposite and they're weaker actually (off the top of my head someone like Renji)

the very notion of that argument makes no sense whatsoever to the power system of the verse and even common sense.

it absolutely does make sense

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

She also destroyed his head with her shikai which KILLED him, so you just shot your self in the foot with that argument

Off-guard AA and other anti-feats prove that he normally couldn't hurt her.

when did shinji attack gerard with his zanpakuto? show me the scene i will wait and hiyori attacked gerard with her zanpakuto and hurt him does that mean hiyori shikai is superior to shinji's??

Hiyori didn't damage Gerard, did she? Are you confusing her with Momo? She also attacked but couldn't deal any damage.

Literally stated to be a kido expert and doesn't excel in sword fights, so what did you expect her to do?

Nanao himself states that he was able to become a lieutenant thanks to his kido skills. This indicates that he was below this level in other areas. Of course, Shunsui later explains that he made him a lieutenant for another reason.

if this point is referring to aura then i suggest you read the book again, because the nature of aura fullbringer abilities makes her excel in one category of fullbring art which is reishi manipulation and her profieciency in sword play is non existent that is why urahara compares her to the hakuda and kido potency to that of aizen because... unlike aizen, aura doesn't wield a sword so she can't be fully compared to aizen.

Aura? Wasn't that statement for Urahara? Aura's statement seemed different.

 

[Specterxxxx]

No it isnt

Ahh the classic nuh uh with no means of disproving what i said.

he does use kido multiple times because its stronger, people throughout the series constantly either use kido because its stronger than their regular moves

Show me one instance of this from any character who excels in both that wasn't just because of utility, the only instance i can think of is aizen using hado 90 on ichigo and even that was the best move he had because of the massive high gravitational force it applies and that is still a utility aspect.

, or the opposite and they're weaker actually (off the top of my head someone like Renji)

Renji's kido isn't weaker, he just has no profiency over it and that's why it blows up in his face. Try again.

it absolutely does make sense

You say this and your arguments shows the opposite.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Off-guard AA and other anti-feats prove that he normally couldn't hurt her.

When did he tank her shikai attack or any fatal attack from her even, show me the scan?

Hiyori didn't damage Gerard, did she? Are you confusing her with Momo? She also attacked but couldn't deal any damage.

Shinji kido didn't do any damage either, it just caused him momentary pain and momo managed to push him back further than even shinji's kido did. yeah i meant momo and you haven't shown me where gerard tanked shinji's shikai attack.

Nanao himself states that he was able to become a lieutenant thanks to his kido skills. This indicates that he was below this level in other areas. Of course, Shunsui later explains that he made him a lieutenant for another reason.

Notice how she says "kido skills". not kido power, which proves what i said. Her profiency is kido while being poor in Zanjutsu is the literal opposite of renji. One isn't more powerful than the other, both parties just know how to use one art better. If you want to even make a good argument, you should use characters that excel in both arts like yama, byakuya, rukia, urahara and others.

Aura? Wasn't that statement for Urahara? Aura's statement seemed different.

It wasn't for urahara, urahara is the one who explains to hisagi how powerful aura is when their fight starts. you could read the book and see for yourself.

Also you realize if it was for urahara your argument would seem more nonsensical because your previous point didn't just allude to kido it alluded to hakuda as well so do you honestly believe his hakuda is aizen level but somehow when he uses a sword, he gets millions of times weaker?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Shinji kido didn't do any damage either, it just caused him momentary pain and momo managed to push him back further than even shinji's kido did. yeah i meant momo and you haven't shown me where gerard tanked shinji's shikai attack.

Momo's attack didn't make Gerard scream like Shinji's kido. There was no visible damage, and unlike Shinji, he didn't express any injury by saying "that hurt."

and you haven't shown me where gerard tanked shinji's shikai attack.

V1 Gerard>Post-Aushwalen Base Gerard>Pre-Aushwalen Base Gerard>Bambietta>Komamura~~Mask Tosen>Base Tosen>Shinji

According to this scaling chain, Shinji's Zanpakuto AP already has lower durability than Gerard's.

Also you realize if it was for urahara your argument would seem more nonsensical because your previous point didn't just allude to kido it alluded to hakuda as well so do you honestly believe his hakuda is aizen level but somehow when he uses a sword, he gets millions of times weaker?

Aizen doesn't have a Hakuda feat. So it's unclear whether being equal in Hakuda is good or bad for Urahara. Neither of them used Hakuda throughout the entire series.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Momo's attack didn't make Gerard scream like Shinji's kido. There was no visible damage, and unlike Shinji, he didn't express any injury by saying "that hurt."

There was no visible damage with shinji's either but you still haven't proved how his kido is superior to his zanpakuto.

V1 Gerard>Post-Aushwalen Base Gerard>Pre-Aushwalen Base Gerard>Bambietta>Komamura~~Mask Tosen>Base Tosen>Shinji

According to this scaling chain, Shinji's Zanpakuto AP already has lower durability than Gerard's.

Lmao, not only is this scaling horrendous, you are using shinji from the arrancar arc comparing him to tybw shinji despite the fact we know shinji trains

Aizen doesn't have a Hakuda feat. So it's unclear whether being equal in Hakuda is good or bad for Urahara. Neither of them used Hakuda throughout the entire series.

This is an irrelevant argument, his durability feats and striking feats are multi solar in this platform, so the potency of his hakuda scales from there, nice try.

 

[Soulking22334]

There was no visible damage with shinji's either but you still haven't proved how his kido is superior to his zanpakuto.

that's a clear bad faith card

 

[Specterxxxx]

that's a clear bad faith card

first there is no visible damage here and i even went further to even say it still doesn't prove that his kido is superior to his blade which was the crux of my argument earlier. Don't tell me what's bad faith when they are also doing the same thing in their arguments.

 

[Naeblis495]

Aizen himself clearly state that Urahara had similar level of power to him before the hogyoku.

Urahara's shikai technique Hiasobi Benihime even dealt more damage to chrysalis Aizen than his Senju Koten Taio against a weaker version of Aizen.

These attempts of downgrading the verse are in very bad faith.

 

[ichimojii]

Jugram said yhwach destroying hollows, killing yamamoto and killing S0 to make the relams fragile so it can be easier for him to destroy it. What do you guys think about that?

 

[HelloThere1089]

I think we should wait for the anime to drop first

 

[ichimojii]

I think we should wait for the anime to drop first

It already dropped in theaters lol

 

[Soulking22334]

first there is no visible damage here

"Momo's attack didn't make Gerard scream like Shinji's kido. There was no visible damage, and unlike Shinji, he didn't express any injury by saying "that hurt."

Read between the lines ,it's clear that by “no visible damage” he means he didn't react to her attacks.

 

[Soulking22334]

It already dropped in theaters lol

give me a link

 

[BeTheWay1rst]

Hotter than Yamamoto Bankai without any feats or statements?

Minor Naruto Revisions | Part 1

Hello. This purpose of this thread is to provide numerical values to Bijuu Bombs. Some of this thread is based around calcs that were accepted here, the rest will be inverse scaling : Kn6's Bijuu Bomb Temp - 1,561,622 C Heat Scaling All Jinchuriki would be granted external resistance and...

vsbattles.com

 

[HelloThere1089]

It already dropped in theaters lol

Right. Can you get clear scans then? No right? That's why I said we should wait till it drops in a few days online, not in theatres. Everyone knows it has been in theaters.

 

[ichimojii]

give me a link

Well you can imply it jugram doesn't outright say it. Yhwach shook the balance the worlds by killing hollows and S0. Then took reio's power so he can make new one in his own image.

 

[Soulking22334]

Well you can imply it jugram doesn't outright say it. Yhwach shook the balance the worlds by killing hollows and S0. Then took reio's power so he can make new one in his own image.

man they are throwing the hands not hands

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Lmao, not only is this scaling horrendous, you are using shinji from the arrancar arc comparing him to tybw shinji despite the fact we know shinji trains

That's a nice misconception. Shinji training doesn't change anything. A character being stronger than before ≠ becoming stronger than everyone who was stronger than them before. It's up to you to prove that Shinji's TYBW form surpasses Tosen and Komamura's Arrancar arc forms. The Komamura that Bambietta fought was the strongest Komamura form before his human form. It's unknown how much stronger that form was than the one that fought Tosen. You might think there wasn't much difference. Shinji, however, couldn't even withstand Bambietta's explosion as much as Komamura.

Even in CFYOW, Shinji considered activating his Hollow Mask when he felt Base Grimmjow's power. We're talking about Grimmjow, a character weaker than V1 Gerard.

Let's leave the Tosen scale aside. Bambietta is nowhere near V1 Gerard. You'd be scaling Shinji to V1 Gerard even though he lost to Bambietta.

This is an irrelevant argument, his durability feats and striking feats are multi solar in this platform, so the potency of his hakuda scales from there, nice try.

Another proof that Hakuda isn't close to Meninas' Zanpaktou AP is that CFYOW Zaraki is physically weaker than Meninas. We know that even SAFWY Zaraki is superior enough to cast Reiatsu Neg on Meninas. But the Narrator stated that Meninas was physically stronger. By "physical," I mean muscle strength. If, as you think, there wasn't much difference between Hakuda's and Ichibei's Zanpaktou power, then Meninas should have gained higher AP than Ichibei through Zaraki. But the same Meninas was matched against Girikko. Girikko also got one-shot by Zaraki in the Fullbring arc.

I think Aizen's SS section should be written as "Unknown" because he doesn't have a Hakuda feat. The same goes for Urahara.

There was no visible damage with shinji's either but you still haven't proved how his kido is superior to his zanpakuto.

Shinji's Zanpakuto doesn't have a Gerard-level feat. But his Kido was able to damage Gerard. It's up to you to prove that his Shikai can do the same. Gerard saying "that hurt" clearly confirms he took damage.

Aizen himself clearly state that Urahara had similar level of power to him before the hogyoku.

Aizen's reference to "Power" here isn't about AP... He's saying, "I'm now a superior being to the shinigami, while you're still a shinigami." The SS Arc Databook already describes Aizen as unmatched, confirming his far superiority over Urahara. If even his pre-Hogyoku form is unmatched, why would he consider Urahara his equal? Besides, he was able to fight Shikai Yamamoto, who is stronger than Urahara.

Urahara's shikai technique Hiasobi Benihime even dealt more damage to chrysalis Aizen than his Senju Koten Taio against a weaker version of Aizen.

The fact that several of Urahara's techniques can inflict damage on Aizen doesn't mean all his shikai attacks scale to that level. For example, the technique you mentioned isn't used against Askin or Ulquiorra, so it's fine. Those wouldn't scale to that attack, but Urahara's other shikai attacks wouldn't scale to this one either.

However, I doubt even that should scale. The databook states that these attacks aren't even at Aizen's level and he doesn't take any damage from them. It specifically mentions the scene where both Yoruichi and Urahara are subjected to this attack.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

For the comparison with Urahara, another possible angle is that Aizen was referring to their “equal” status as Shinigami, because Aizen himself then says he had no equal as a Shinigami when the Hogyoku was evolving his body so these statements are conflicting.

If we compare their individual feats, then Aizen appears better aside from Urahara’s Bankai.

Now Isshin did push Aizen but he had abused KS multiple times against the captains/Vizards earlier, and CFYOW clarified that active use of KS takes a lot of reiatsu. That would explain how Aizen got tired so easily against Isshin.

 

[AKUTO123]

Hotter than Yamamoto Bankai without any feats or statements?

Minor Naruto Revisions | Part 1

Hello. This purpose of this thread is to provide numerical values to Bijuu Bombs. Some of this thread is based around calcs that were accepted here, the rest will be inverse scaling : Kn6's Bijuu Bomb Temp - 1,561,622 C Heat Scaling All Jinchuriki would be granted external resistance and...

vsbattles.com

Even candice random lightning heat transcend it with instant temperature or ts ichigo vaporizing sea feat temperature surpass yama bankai flame temperature