BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Specterxxxx]

All this information just puts lille above Askin which you could probably get to 4A from scaling to urahara, it doesn't do anything else besides that

 

[Peter1129]

All this information just puts lille above Askin which you could probably get to 4A from scaling to urahara, it doesn't do anything else besides that

That's still way better than what Lille is at right now in that form. It's always been weird seeing Lille in his 3rd Volstandig not being tier 4 when Askin is even though he should be weaker than Lille based on how the narrative treats the two of them. Though I was originally thinking more so scaling him to Chrysalis Aizen which seems to be where the base transcendence scaling began.

 

[Soulking22334]

All this information just puts lille above Askin which you could probably get to 4A from scaling to urahara, it doesn't do anything else besides that

a transcended lille shoud scale to ts ichigo

 

[Specterxxxx]

That's still way better than what Lille is at right now in that form. It's always been weird seeing Lille in his 3rd Volstandig not being tier 4 when Askin is even though he should be weaker than Lille based on how the narrative treats the two of them. Though I was originally thinking more so scaling him to Chrysalis Aizen which seems to be where the base transcendence scaling began.

him scaling to aizen doesn't make sense, that's like scaling shikai yama to aizen because ukitake said yama's flames are transcedent.

a transcended lille shoud scale to ts ichigo

haha

 

[Peter1129]

him scaling to aizen doesn't make sense, that's like scaling shikai yama to aizen because ukitake said yama's flames are transcedent.

haha

Lille's 3rd Volstandig never had any scaling outside of being ridiculously powerful than his previous forms. And even before this Q&A with how often they said he had the power of god which was something only the transcendents like Aizen was said to have in the Unmasked guidebook it always felt to me that Lille in his final form was far above all his previous forms and should've scaled much higher than wherever he's currently at. And I'm pretty sure Chrysalis Aizen was also the one that was stated to be beyond Shinigami limits which seems to be the beginning of transcendence where they transcend one race (Shinigami/Qunicy). Hence why I said I initially assumed he could be scaled to around 2nd Fusion Aizen's level in his 3rd Volstandig.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Bruh. Kira never fought Lille in his 3rd/Final Volstandig. He fought a heavily weakened Lille after losing his powers as stated by himself. Shunsui dodged via his shadow ability which has always had some fast transportation speed. Not to mention by this logic Lille in his 2nd Volstandig couldn't tag a less tired Shunsui outside of the first time he shot Shunsui that also paralyzed him in place even though that form is clearly stronger than Base Lille. And Lille clearly reacts faster than Nanao multiple times and only gave her a chance to get close and cut him because he was arrogant and allowed her to get close. You'll need to make a CRT if you actually believe the golden Volstandig form is somehow weaker than his normal green Volstandig.

Kira's fighting form doesn't just have haxes like abstraction. I don't think Nanao sealing his power gives him an AP-dura reduction.

Furthermore, there's a bigger contradiction. Lille Barro has been a Sternritter for over 1000 years. This means he was defeated in the first Gotei 13 battle. Even if we assume Yamamoto defeated him in that battle 1000 years ago, Yamamoto isn't Transcendent. Or, in that case, he shouldn't have activated this form 1000 years ago. I see no reason why he wouldn't have activated it until his death.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

All this information just puts lille above Askin which you could probably get to 4A from scaling to urahara, it doesn't do anything else besides that

Even if Urahara were interpreted as a 4-A, Askin wouldn't be. Askin fought a Urahara weakened by poison. Besides that, he has counter-feats like taking damage from Grimmjow. According to Part 4 spoilers, Askin was pierced by Grimmjow despite using Blut Venn.

 

[Peter1129]

Kira's fighting form doesn't just have haxes like abstraction. I don't think Nanao sealing his power gives him an AP-dura reduction.

Furthermore, there's a bigger contradiction. Lille Barro has been a Sternritter for over 1000 years. This means he was defeated in the first Gotei 13 battle. Even if we assume Yamamoto defeated him in that battle 1000 years ago, Yamamoto isn't Transcendent. Or, in that case, he shouldn't have activated this form 1000 years ago. I see no reason why he wouldn't have activated it until his death.

Bruh wtf are you even talking about. Lille straight up says he lost his powers which is clear indication that he got weakened.

Dude did you even read what Kubo said.

Q: How come Lille was able to come back in a weird form despite being decapitated and dismembered?

Kubo: Lille is the oldest Quincy to have received Yhwach’s power and has never once lost it since then. For that reason, because the power inside of him had grown excessively, it had started to change his body into something more than human.

Lille's 3rd Volstandig is the result of his powers growing over the course of 1000 years. He never had this power 1000 years ago. Not to mention we don't even know the specifics of what happened 1000 years ago. We don't even see Lille in the original Schutzstaffel.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Lille's 3rd Volstandig never had any scaling outside of being ridiculously powerful than his previous forms. And even before this Q&A with how often they said he had the power of god which was something only the transcendents like Aizen was said to have in the Unmasked guidebook it always felt to me that Lille in his final form was far above all his previous forms and should've scaled much higher than wherever he's currently at. And I'm pretty sure Chrysalis Aizen was also the one that was stated to be beyond Shinigami limits which seems to be the beginning of transcendence where they transcend one race (Shinigami/Qunicy). Hence why I said I initially assumed he could be scaled to around 2nd Fusion Aizen's level in his 3rd Volstandig.

again whatever applies to barro applies to yama and yama doesn't scale to aizen so barro shouldn't either. being called a god or being called transcendent once doesn't compare to the literal narrative and consistent backing aizen has.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Bruh wtf are you even talking about. Lille straight up says he lost his powers which is clear indication that he got weakened.

Dude did you even read what Kubo said.

Q: How come Lille was able to come back in a weird form despite being decapitated and dismembered?

Kubo: Lille is the oldest Quincy to have received Yhwach’s power and has never once lost it since then. For that reason, because the power inside of him had grown excessively, it had started to change his body into something more than human.

Lille's 3rd Volstandig is the result of his powers growing over the course of 1000 years. He never had this power 1000 years ago. Not to mention we don't even know the specifics of what happened 1000 years ago. We don't even see Lille in the original Schutzstaffel.

I agree with this logic, he should scale above any sternrriterr that isn't pernida, gerard, jugram, uryu and gremmy.

 

[Peter1129]

again whatever applies to barro applies to yama and yama doesn't scale to aizen so barro shouldn't either. being called a god or being called transcedence once doesn't compare to the literal narrative and consistent backing aizen has.

Dude Yamamoto's so called transcendent statement clearly isn't talking about him transcending the limits of a race like Aizen. Stop pulling at straws with Yamamoto when he clearly doesn't have any evidence of being transcendent. It's just referring to his power being otherworldly aka really strong.

Lille actually has narrative backing from Kubo stating he's surpassing human (Quincy) in conjunction with his statement of stepping into the realm of god which only Aizen was ever stated to do in the Unmasked guidebook upon the beginning of his fusion. 3rd Volstandig Lille clearly has far more evidence of being transcendent than Yamamoto.

Also what the heck are you even talking about right now? I'm saying I assumed he would be treated as being around 2nd Fusion Aizen level due to this implied transcendent statement not that he is equal to him. From what I can tell just Lille scaling above Askin is already close enough to where I think he scales with him surpassing the limits of one race like 2nd Fusion Aizen has.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Lille straight up says he lost his powers which is clear indication that he got weakened.

The term "power" can also be used to mean ability. It doesn't necessarily have to refer to AP. It's been a while since I read the manga, but it's probably referring to him losing his ability. He can no longer abstract himself, you know. Unless he faces an opponent who can surpass his abstract nature, no one can kill him, and indirectly, he doesn't lose those powers.

And I still can't find it, how many Q&A posts is this?

 

[AppleLord]

Any clue what the uryu title card states?

Just his journey since he joined to now. Nothing about powers.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Dude Yamamoto's so called transcendent statement clearly isn't talking about him transcending the limits of a race like Aizen. Stop pulling at straws with Yamamoto when he clearly doesn't have any evidence of being transcendent. It's just referring to his power being otherworldly aka really strong.

Lille actually has narrative backing from Kubo stating he's surpassing human (Quincy) in conjunction with his statement of stepping into the realm of god which only Aizen was ever stated to do in the Unmasked guidebook upon the beginning of his fusion. 3rd Volstandig Lille clearly has far more evidence of being transcendent than Yamamoto.

Also what the heck are you even talking about right now? I'm saying I assumed he would be treated as being around 2nd Fusion Aizen level due to this implied transcendent statement not that he is equal to him. From what I can tell just Lille scaling above Askin is already close enough to where I think he scales with him surpassing the limits of one race like 2nd Fusion Aizen has.

Yeah and your reasoning for this is too poor to hold any weight, but you do you though. I am not gonna keep arguing and telling you that

 

[Soulking22334]

Yeah and your reasoning for this is too poor to hold any weight, but you do you though. I am not gonna keep arguing and telling you that

"it had started to change his body into something more than human" this is enough

braking the boundaries of the soul is transcending

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah and your reasoning for this is too poor to hold any weight, but you do you though. I am not gonna keep arguing and telling you that

Too poor for what? For simply saying 3rd Volstandig Lille is very likely transcendent based on the info we’re given and should at least be stronger than normal quincies like Askin?

Literally all I’m saying is 3rd Form Volstandig Lille should be higher and probably tier 4 based on his status. And that narratively he seems to be something akin to 2nd Fusion Aizen (Surpassing the limits of one race).

 

[Soulking22334]

aura

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

There is no proof Lille was in the original war. He wasn’t mentioned nor seen in the past.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

According to Part 4 spoilers, Askin was pierced by Grimmjow despite using Blut Venn

I thought the spoilers say the opposite? That Grimmjow hurt him specifically when Blut Vene wasn’t active.

 

[Soulking22334]

I thought the spoilers say the opposite? That Grimmjow hurt him specifically when Blut Vene wasn’t active.

 

[Specterxxxx]

"it had started to change his body into something more than human" this is enough

braking the boundaries of the soul is transcending

Good luck

Too poor for what? For simply saying 3rd Volstandig Lille is very likely transcendent based on the info we’re given and should at least be stronger than normal quincies like Askin?

Literally all I’m saying is 3rd Form Volstandig Lille should be higher and probably tier 4 based on his status. And that narratively he seems to be something akin to 2nd Fusion Aizen (Surpassing the limits of one race).

and i literally agreed to that, i am only telling you that trying to put lille in chrysallis aizen level conversations because of that argument is not valid argument.

 

[Specterxxxx]

For the love of God, stop posting spoilers so casually, there are people who haven't seen the movie. post your pictures with a spoiler cover.

 

[Soulking22334]

Good luck

what? are you using your bankai : bad faith?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I thought the spoilers say the opposite? That Grimmjow hurt him specifically when Blut Vene wasn’t active.

There was nothing in the manga about the use of Blut Venn. Therefore, I would have argued for scaling to 1/5 the durability of the Final Form Askin. Now that Blut Venn is used, it would scale to full durability. I learned this from spoilers posted here, and it seems the above argument is correct...

 

[Peter1129]

Good luck

and i literally agreed to that, i am only telling you that trying to put lille in chrysallis aizen level conversations because of that argument is not valid argument.

Dude I literally never said I’m trying to put Lille at Chrysallis Aizen level here. I said I originally assumed he would be at that level because narratively they both seem to be those who have transcended past their respective races. Here yeah that probably isn’t enough evidence to scale them to each other.

But if it’s in other places like say making a tier list on another site than I’d treat them both around the same tier for essentially transcending one race as they’re probably closer to each other narrative wise rather than anybody below them. You’re the one that keeps confusing what I’m saying.

Like aren’t majority of Aizen’s fusion forms like 4-A outside of the 4th and onwards? It’s only a matter of how far into 4-A he is hence why I said scaling wise 3rd Form Volstandig Lille was probably already close to 2nd Fusion Aizen already.

 

[Mommyleona]

When did Askin start scaling to tier 4????

 

[Peter1129]

When did Askin start scaling to tier 4????

He fought Bankai Urahara in the manga which is about to be adapted in the anime. And scaling wise

Bankai Urahara > Base Urahara = Base Aizen = Possibly 4-A

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Urahara was nerfed because he was weakened by Askin's venom. Therefore, it's not fair to compare him to Aizen. Besides all that, there's the fact that Grimmjow can't be a 4-A.

 

[Soulking22334]

there's the fact that Grimmjow can't be a 4-A.

??????

 

[Infinite9Luck]

a transcended lille shoud scale to ts ichigo

That is literally based on nothing tbh, reading that Kubo's quote and scale Lille to True Shikai Ichigo is a massive reach; Ichigo, Aizen and others are directly compared to the Soul King.

 

[DeathberrySama]

He fought Bankai Urahara in the manga which is about to be adapted in the anime. And scaling wise

Bankai Urahara > Base Urahara = Base Aizen = Possibly 4-A

That's weird. Aizen is a lot stronger than Urahara.

 

[AppleLord]

Uryu will get stronger schrift transformation overtime.

Thanks to Lille’s schrift lore.

Angel Uryu form in Hell Arc let’s go!

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

??????

Are you asking why Grimmjow can't be in 4-A?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Are you asking why Grimmjow can't be in 4-A?

Wouldn’t that scale back to the Espada since CFYOW Grimmjow is 3rd Espada level apparently.

But it just makes little for an Espada to easily pierce a fully powered Elite’s Blut Vene.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Wouldn’t that scale back to the Espada since CFYOW Grimmjow is 3rd Espada level apparently.

But it just makes little for an Espada to easily pierce a fully powered Elite’s Blut Vene.

Espadas aren't normally that weak compared to elites. This wiki suggests there's a significant power clift between them because Byakuya's feats against Yammy aren't considered outliers. The fact that Shunsui's power hasn't increased proves in itself that there isn't an exaggerated difference between Lille Barro and Starrk.

And he's not a 3rd level Espada. His matchup with Ginjo scales him above Starrk. I rank them as follows: Ulquiorra > Baraggan > CFYOW Grimmjow > Starrk.

The main reason Grimmjow can't be a 4-A is because Urahara's scaling comes from Aizen, and Aizen is superior to all Baraggan forms. Since Grimmjow's AP is both weaker and higher than Aizen's, we need to take his Askin low.

I'm not scaling Urahara's shikai, only his Kido to Aizen. Since his shikai is scaled in this wiki, I wrote it accordingly.

 

[Specterxxxx]

I'm not scaling Urahara's shikai (military surname), only his Kido to Aizen. Since his shikai is scaled in this wiki, I wrote it accordingly.

I have always found this idea silly, the source of shinigami offense entailing both kido and zanpakuto comes from the same source they aren't seperate, what makes one kido more powerful than another is the level of reiyorku used. Urahara can utilize the same level of energy in his zanpakuto that he can use in his kido attacks. if his kido potency is on aizen level then the rest of his combat abilities should be the same.

 

[Mommyleona]

I have always found this idea silly, the source of shinigami offense entailing both kido and zanpakuto comes from the same source they aren't seperate, what makes one kido more powerful than another is the level of reiyorku used. Urahara can utilize the same level of energy in his zanpakuto that he can use in his kido attacks. if his kido potency is on aizen level then the rest of his combat abilities should be the same.

what is the point of kido if apparently your sword swing is just as strong lmao

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I have always found this idea silly, the source of shinigami offense entailing both kido and zanpakuto comes from the same source they aren't seperate, what makes one kido more powerful than another is the level of reiyorku used. Urahara can utilize the same level of energy in his zanpakuto that he can use in his kido attacks. if his kido potency is on aizen level then the rest of his combat abilities should be the same.

Then why do everyone have different scores for Kido, Hakuda, and Zanpakuto? Just because the two powers come from the same source doesn't mean they're comparable.

Moreover, if they were equal in every aspect, as you say, CFYOW would only state that they are equal, and we would accept that they are equal in everything. But it only states that they are equal in Kido and Hakuda.

Shinji's Zanpakuto power isn't high enough to inflict damage on Gerard, but he was able to do so with Kido.

Nanao, despite being a lieutenant, was able to block Jugram's attack with a Kido barrier.

In the Arrancar saga, Rukia's Zanpakuto power, even if not captain-level, was at least able to damage AA with Kido.

 

[Specterxxxx]

what is the point of kido if apparently your sword swing is just as strong lmao

This is like saying what is the point of magic if you have a sword lmao, kido have different utilities that zanpakuto can't achieve and EVERYTIME urahara uses kido it's because of the special property of that kido not because his kido is millions of times stronger than his zanpakuto lol. the very notion of that argument makes no sense whatsoever to the power system of the verse and even common sense.

Then why do everyone have different scores for Kido, Hakuda, and Zanpakuto? Just because the two powers come from the same source doesn't mean they're comparable.

They have different scores and it has nothing to do with potency but rather their affinity and mastery over it. some shinigamis are profecient in one art while not as good as the other. this is not an argument.

Moreover, if they were equal in every aspect, as you say, CFYOW would only state that they are equal, and we would accept that they are equal in everything. But it only states that they are equal in Kido and Hakuda.

if this point is referring to aura then i suggest you read the book again, because the nature of aura fullbringer abilities makes her excel in one category of fullbring art which is reishi manipulation and her profieciency in sword play is non existent that is why urahara compares her to the hakuda and kido potency to that of aizen because... unlike aizen, aura doesn't wield a sword so she can't be fully compared to aizen.

Shinji's Zanpakuto power isn't high enough to inflict damage on Gerard, but he was able to do so with Kido.

when did shinji attack gerard with his zanpakuto? show me the scene i will wait and hiyori attacked gerard with her zanpakuto and hurt him does that mean hiyori shikai is superior to shinji's??

Nanao, despite being a lieutenant, was able to block Jugram's attack with a Kido barrier.

Literally stated to be a kido expert and doesn't excel in sword fights, so what did you expect her to do?

In the Arrancar saga, Rukia's Zanpakuto power, even if not captain-level, was at least able to damage AA with Kido.

She also destroyed his head with her shikai which KILLED him, so you just shot your self in the foot with that argument

 

[Specterxxxx]

What makes the attack of shinigami powerful is how much reiyorku they pour into the attack not the nature of the attack itself. Nanao couldn't immediately spawn a barrier that could stop jugram, it took her time to pour enough reiyorku to make a stronger barrier the same way it took renji 20 seconds of pouring his reiyorku into his final attack against uryu to increase it's potency. Kido and Zanpakuto prowess have the same foundation and the only difference is utility not one being more powerful than the other.

Being an expert in one art and subpar in another doesn't mean that art is superior in potency, it just means you are good at utilising it better.