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BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

Specterxxxx said:
Renji was the fraud before he learnt the true powers of his zanpakuto, there is no basis of renji inferiority to byakuya post soo zabimaru for now at least.
Click to expand...
Depends how toshiro's freezing is illustrated. And byakuya might scale similar way renji was scaled both weird tho.
Specterxxxx said:
Byakuya didn't find out his bankai was lie, renji did.
Click to expand...
Did we miss any scan? Or you reading different bleach?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Because he’s got better scaling and there’s nothing that says Byakuya is as strong or stronger. If we just did “training” scaling then Renji, Byakuya, and Rukia would all be as strong as Ichigo. And that’s clearly not the case.
Click to expand...
There is actually. It’s narrative based so it’s hard to argue for scaling but when talking to Ikkaku about becoming a Captain, he said he doesn’t want to become one just because his goal is to fight under Zaraki just like how Renji’s goal is surpassing Byakuya. With the context being about why they’re not going for the Captain rank despite having Bankai

The other one is from CFYOW where Narita wrote Byakuya and Toshiro out of the story by having them go on a mission to ‘help Ichigo with a threat’ that he couldn’t handle alone or something of the sort, implying they’re still relative to Zaraki like they were in the TYBW despite Zaraki being the strongest. Or alternatively, it’s considered a believable lie by the Soul Society that Toshiro and Byakuya as a duo are relevant enough to help Ichigo in combat over anyone else

Really hard to argue but they’re arguments
 
Jo-Smooth said:
There is actually. It’s narrative based so it’s hard to argue for scaling but when talking to Ikkaku about becoming a Captain, he said he doesn’t want to become one just because his goal is to fight under Zaraki just like how Renji’s goal is surpassing Byakuya. With the context being about why they’re not going for the Captain rank despite having Bankai
Click to expand...
So it’s Renji’s narrative to surpass Byakuya is what you’re saying.

Jo-Smooth said:
The other one is from CFYOW where Narita wrote Byakuya and Toshiro out of the story by having them go on a mission to ‘help Ichigo with a threat’ that he couldn’t handle alone or something of the sort, implying they’re still relative to Zaraki like they were in the TYBW despite Zaraki being the strongest. Or alternatively, it’s considered a believable lie by the Soul Society that Toshiro and Byakuya as a duo are relevant enough to help Ichigo in combat over anyone else

Really hard to argue but they’re arguments
Click to expand...
You got that wrong. He wrote RENJI out of the story with Ichigo. Byakuya was in Seireitei and had a meeting with Tokinada and Yoruichi.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
So it’s Renji’s narrative to surpass Byakuya is what you’re saying.
Click to expand...
Not exactly his narrative but more so his goal, whether he accomplishes it or not. The narrative argument I was getting at is that Renji still isn’t a Captain post TYBW (CFYOW era) or 10-12 years later, implying he hasn’t surpassed Byakuya yet

Arc7Kuroi said:
You got that wrong. He wrote RENJI out of the story with Ichigo. Byakuya was in Seireitei and had a meeting with Tokinada and Yoruichi.
Click to expand...
I’m talking about specifically when Hikone and Tokinada popped out for the final conflict. Yoruichi was there but the Soul Society wanted as little people involved as possible, so Byakuya and Toshiro were sent away to ‘assist Ichigo’
 
Unrelated to the current discussion, but I've been watching the Bleach anime in my spare time over the last month or two. During the Zanpakuto Rebellion Arc Soi-Fon disperses a storm that covered the entire Seireitei. While non-canon, I do wonder what that would yield AP wise.

EDIT: I was mistaken on the size, the storm cloud just covered the Squad Six barracks. My bad there.
 
Last edited:
Qawsedf234 said:
Unrelated to the current discussion, but I've been watching the Bleach anime in my spare time over the last month or two. During the Zanpakuto Rebellion Arc Soi-Fon disperses a storm that covered the entire Seireitei. While non-canon, I do wonder what that would yield AP wise.

EDIT: I was mistaken on the size, the storm cloud just covered the Squad Six barracks. My bad there.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised if it resulted in Tier 7-6 values. It probably wouldn't be useful for scaling, but it could be nice supporting evidence, depending on the value.

Speaking on the canonicity of the Zanpakuto Rebellion Arc: @Arc7Kuroi was watching to see if it could be considered Canon or not. This was a couple months ago, and he didn't fully complete it, but he does have some interesting scaling written down in a server I am in.
 
Jo-Smooth said:
Not exactly his narrative but more so his goal, whether he accomplishes it or not. The narrative argument I was getting at is that Renji still isn’t a Captain post TYBW (CFYOW era) or 10-12 years later, implying he hasn’t surpassed Byakuya yet
Click to expand...
That doesn’t follow logically.

Jo-Smooth said:
I’m talking about specifically when Hikone and Tokinada popped out for the final conflict. Yoruichi was there but the Soul Society wanted as little people involved as possible, so Byakuya and Toshiro were sent away to ‘assist Ichigo’
Click to expand...
No Byakuya wasn’t… it’s also specifically stated that Byakuya’s reiatsu = Tokinada’s any way.
 
Deceived3596 said:
This was a couple months ago, and he didn't fully complete it, but he does have some interesting scaling written down in a server I am in.
Click to expand...
I'm on episode 253 of the series right now. My main issue canon isn't the Zanpakuto's spirits themselves since they're mostly consistent in personality and they're shown as having the power to shape shifting, making appearances a non-issue. What I see as a problem are sorta two fold:
  • Renji's spirits don't really have a problem with him post-mind control. This contradicts how Renji's snake side thought that he was lame and never gave him their true name until after he trained with Squad 0
  • Some of the techniques used like Uyru's Seele Schneider, Chad's Gigante and Ichigo's Hollowmask don't work with the known timeline of events. Uryu steals the blade from his dad the same day they leave to get Orihime, Chad doesn't unlock the shield arm until he's in Hueco Mundo and Ichigo's Hollowmask is using his post-Grimmjow design
Having said that, there are no glaring plot issues like with the Bout Arc Squad 11 backstory. The hardest part is timeline placement since I'm not entirely sure where it can go (imo only the Bout and Regai Arcs make any real sense with their timelines).

Iirc the Light Novels from my understanding also use Muramasa as a Zanpakto and I don't think it can jive with the filler stuff. I think what the Zanpakto's can do in the filler can be looked at as secondary/adjacent canon though.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Iirc the Light Novels from my understanding also use Muramasa as a Zanpakto and I don't think it can jive with the filler stuff. I think what the Zanpakto's can do in the filler can be looked at as secondary/adjacent canon though.
Click to expand...
Can't Fear Your Own World brings up Muramasa, and if I recall correctly, is consistent with the depictions we're given in the Zanpakuto Rebellion Arc. It's never utilized, though. It only has its ability described and the fact it's supposed to be a clan sword similar to what Nanao used in the TYBW Arc.
 
Deceived3596 said:
clan sword similar to what Nanao used in the TYBW Arc.
Click to expand...
That's what I mean. It's the Kuchiki clan ancestry Zanpakuto in that story, and I don't know if that jives with the Zanpakuto Rebellion arc.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
That's what I mean. It's the Kuchiki clan ancestry Zanpakuto in that story, and I don't know if that jives with the Zanpakuto Rebellion arc.
Click to expand...
It's the same because Narita (the novel writer) it's a huge fan of the Zanpakuto rebellion arc, though it might just mean the Zanpakuto is a canon but not the events that happen in the anime, however I think it's also arguable the arc to be fully canon.
 
Could Fade to Black be canon? Tite Kubo stated in an interview about the film that even people who have never watched Bleach can watch it and that he liked it more than the first film. We already accept the first film as canon.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Could Fade to Black be canon? Tite Kubo stated in an interview about the film that even people who have never watched Bleach can watch it and that he liked it more than the first film. We already accept the first film as canon.
Click to expand...
The events no. The information on the setting is canon tho.

With filler, we gotta understand that sometimes an author might take a few key concepts and apply them, without implying every single event is canon. Like ZR if it does have a bunch of significant contradictions (like Chad’s power development being early, etc etc), it could be a case where the idea of Muramasa and stuff like Katen Kyokotsu’s design are canonized without the rest. Purely an example, I’m not saying I think ZR is inherently non-canon.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
The events no. The information on the setting is canon tho.

With filler, we gotta understand that sometimes an author might take a few key concepts and apply them, without implying every single event is canon. Like ZR if it does have a bunch of significant contradictions (like Chad’s power development being early, etc etc), it could be a case where the idea of Muramasa and stuff like Katen Kyokotsu’s design are canonized without the rest. Purely an example, I’m not saying I think ZR is inherently non-canon.
Click to expand...
That's mostly what I was going with. I think the idea and designs of arc are canon and match with later stuff (the manga even reused the designs for Shunsui's Zanpakuto spirits), I just don't know if the events could have happened as presented within that story arc.
 
Apollonir.Scale said:
Could Fade to Black be canon? Tite Kubo stated in an interview about the film that even people who have never watched Bleach can watch it and that he liked it more than the first film. We already accept the first film as canon.
Click to expand...
It screws with the order of events, so no. The first film is canon because Kubo said it himself and also the anime and manga references when Ichigo went to the valley of screams.
 
PedjaTarzan said:
are there any more images regarding this hyper whatever argument cuz my imgur wont load entirely ☠️
Click to expand...
I'll copy and paste his arguments:

断絶した空間を幾重にも重なった時間の激流が取り囲んだ空間だ(That the Dangai is) a void disconnected from the worlds, imbedded with multiple layers of time that surround it atop of one another.

現世と尸魂界の狭間にあるという空間。 穿界門はここに穴を穿ち、通路を作る。 一度、 断界に取り込まれると脱出することはできず、永久に彷徨い続けることになるという。This is a void that lies on the threshold of this world and the world of mortals. Like a tunnel entrance, a hole drilled here to form a passageway. According to sources, once entrenched within this disconnected void, escape becomes an impossibility, resulting in a state of indefinite roaming for infinity.

「そして、それぞれの間には、互いに接触しないよう、断界と呼ばれる亜空間が存在してくろさきいるんです。黒崎サンも入ったことがある、あれです」"As such, to prevent these worlds ー that is the World of the living, as well as Soul Society ー from ever contacting one another, a boundary-like hyperspace known as the "disconnection boundary" must remain present among these structures."

Back when life and death conceptually did not exist there was the primordial world. A world which held no life or death and was just 1 realm. Then came along the soul king who transcends everything of bleach - that is above the entire cosmology, infinite future timelines etc and time itself and created the worlds - divided this primordial world into 3 separate worlds composed of different reishi matter. With Ichibei's explanation, we are told that these said worlds are in a spherical shape. However with this primordial world, it got divided to separate the concepts that is life and death. The Soul Society became the place for the dead, while the world of the living became the place for the life. This is backed up by claims in the canon movie memories of nobody, further proving Ichibei's statement. The first 2 scans of kisuke explaining about the blanks problem during the movie further implies/states and shows that these worlds are different dimensions from each other, connected with the dangai as a passage way leading towards each dimension. In conclusion with these two scans, we can agree that the world of the living and the soul society are different dimensions connected by the dangai. Further proof for such is scan number 6th with rukia explaining such.



In the bleach cosmology, the kyougoku or valley of screams which are said to be infinite are canon. I figured that soul king would go here since he created cosmology so, concepts such as old and new don't apply to the reio aka soul king.



Within the soul society there exists a subspace called Muken, disconnected from the top, extending to infinity. (Bleach Chapter 523), Unohana states regarding Muken, "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ", which translates to, "Like the sound of its name suggests (その音の如く), it holds (を持つ) an equivalent space (等しき広さ) to infinity (無限に)."There also exists infinite paths leading to the future.



The valley of screams or kyogoku is a spatial location, a dimensional space where the energy and memories of those lost souls are separated. The valley of screams are housed with blanks, souls and there exists an infinite (countless) amount of them, confirming that the kyogoku is a locked infinite dimensional space.

 
Johner2133451 said:
I'll copy and paste his arguments:

断絶した空間を幾重にも重なった時間の激流が取り囲んだ空間だ(That the Dangai is) a void disconnected from the worlds, imbedded with multiple layers of time that surround it atop of one another.

現世と尸魂界の狭間にあるという空間。 穿界門はここに穴を穿ち、通路を作る。 一度、 断界に取り込まれると脱出することはできず、永久に彷徨い続けることになるという。This is a void that lies on the threshold of this world and the world of mortals. Like a tunnel entrance, a hole drilled here to form a passageway. According to sources, once entrenched within this disconnected void, escape becomes an impossibility, resulting in a state of indefinite roaming for infinity.

「そして、それぞれの間には、互いに接触しないよう、断界と呼ばれる亜空間が存在してくろさきいるんです。黒崎サンも入ったことがある、あれです」"As such, to prevent these worlds ー that is the World of the living, as well as Soul Society ー from ever contacting one another, a boundary-like hyperspace known as the "disconnection boundary" must remain present among these structures."

Back when life and death conceptually did not exist there was the primordial world. A world which held no life or death and was just 1 realm. Then came along the soul king who transcends everything of bleach - that is above the entire cosmology, infinite future timelines etc and time itself and created the worlds - divided this primordial world into 3 separate worlds composed of different reishi matter. With Ichibei's explanation, we are told that these said worlds are in a spherical shape. However with this primordial world, it got divided to separate the concepts that is life and death. The Soul Society became the place for the dead, while the world of the living became the place for the life. This is backed up by claims in the canon movie memories of nobody, further proving Ichibei's statement. The first 2 scans of kisuke explaining about the blanks problem during the movie further implies/states and shows that these worlds are different dimensions from each other, connected with the dangai as a passage way leading towards each dimension. In conclusion with these two scans, we can agree that the world of the living and the soul society are different dimensions connected by the dangai. Further proof for such is scan number 6th with rukia explaining such.



In the bleach cosmology, the kyougoku or valley of screams which are said to be infinite are canon. I figured that soul king would go here since he created cosmology so, concepts such as old and new don't apply to the reio aka soul king.



Within the soul society there exists a subspace called Muken, disconnected from the top, extending to infinity. (Bleach Chapter 523), Unohana states regarding Muken, "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ", which translates to, "Like the sound of its name suggests (その音の如く), it holds (を持つ) an equivalent space (等しき広さ) to infinity (無限に)."There also exists infinite paths leading to the future.



The valley of screams or kyogoku is a spatial location, a dimensional space where the energy and memories of those lost souls are separated. The valley of screams are housed with blanks, souls and there exists an infinite (countless) amount of them, confirming that the kyogoku is a locked infinite dimensional space.

Click to expand...

i see…well from what ive found on internet abt hyperspace and from what ive seen here i dont see arguments that warrant a higher dimensional rating.
at most i see some statements abt infinite spaces and thats it.
 
vsbattles.com

Bleach: Some minor Yhwach additions

Abilities 1. He should have layered powernull as he can nulify any abilities he sees in the future which includes Aizen and Gerard 2. He also should have mid godly regen negation via almighty as he can nulify any abilities that includes Aizen and Gerard (which both have mid godly regen), it...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Johner2133451 said:
I'll copy and paste his arguments:

断絶した空間を幾重にも重なった時間の激流が取り囲んだ空間だ(That the Dangai is) a void disconnected from the worlds, imbedded with multiple layers of time that surround it atop of one another.

現世と尸魂界の狭間にあるという空間。 穿界門はここに穴を穿ち、通路を作る。 一度、 断界に取り込まれると脱出することはできず、永久に彷徨い続けることになるという。This is a void that lies on the threshold of this world and the world of mortals. Like a tunnel entrance, a hole drilled here to form a passageway. According to sources, once entrenched within this disconnected void, escape becomes an impossibility, resulting in a state of indefinite roaming for infinity.

「そして、それぞれの間には、互いに接触しないよう、断界と呼ばれる亜空間が存在してくろさきいるんです。黒崎サンも入ったことがある、あれです」"As such, to prevent these worlds ー that is the World of the living, as well as Soul Society ー from ever contacting one another, a boundary-like hyperspace known as the "disconnection boundary" must remain present among these structures."

Back when life and death conceptually did not exist there was the primordial world. A world which held no life or death and was just 1 realm. Then came along the soul king who transcends everything of bleach - that is above the entire cosmology, infinite future timelines etc and time itself and created the worlds - divided this primordial world into 3 separate worlds composed of different reishi matter. With Ichibei's explanation, we are told that these said worlds are in a spherical shape. However with this primordial world, it got divided to separate the concepts that is life and death. The Soul Society became the place for the dead, while the world of the living became the place for the life. This is backed up by claims in the canon movie memories of nobody, further proving Ichibei's statement. The first 2 scans of kisuke explaining about the blanks problem during the movie further implies/states and shows that these worlds are different dimensions from each other, connected with the dangai as a passage way leading towards each dimension. In conclusion with these two scans, we can agree that the world of the living and the soul society are different dimensions connected by the dangai. Further proof for such is scan number 6th with rukia explaining such.



In the bleach cosmology, the kyougoku or valley of screams which are said to be infinite are canon. I figured that soul king would go here since he created cosmology so, concepts such as old and new don't apply to the reio aka soul king.



Within the soul society there exists a subspace called Muken, disconnected from the top, extending to infinity. (Bleach Chapter 523), Unohana states regarding Muken, "その音の如く無限に等しき広さを持つ", which translates to, "Like the sound of its name suggests (その音の如く), it holds (を持つ) an equivalent space (等しき広さ) to infinity (無限に)."There also exists infinite paths leading to the future.



The valley of screams or kyogoku is a spatial location, a dimensional space where the energy and memories of those lost souls are separated. The valley of screams are housed with blanks, souls and there exists an infinite (countless) amount of them, confirming that the kyogoku is a locked infinite dimensional space.

Click to expand...

I don't see anything here that implies a higher dimension. People just see "layers of time" and immediately assume that it's about hypertimelines and different temporal axes despite the fact that the only effect we see of these layers is making the passage of time slower in the Dangai.
 
YmTheSuper said:
People just see "layers of time" and immediately assume that it's about hypertimelines and different temporal axes despite the fact that the only effect we see of these layers is making the passage of time slower in the Dangai.
Click to expand...
The big thing is that a different temporal axis involves time moving in a different direction, not a different rate. The fact that the Dangai is 1:2000 means it's using the same time axis as the mortal world(s).

For the hyperspace thing, the most it implies is that the Dangai is a Low 2-C to 2-C space. But since you can (presumably) physically travel to different kyogoku, that means it's probably closer to Low 2-C than 2-C.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
The big thing is that a different temporal axis involves time moving in a different direction, not a different rate. The fact that the Dangai is 1:2000 means it's using the same time axis as the mortal world(s).
Click to expand...
Yes and I'm pretty sure this exact thing about time passing at a different rate not being proof of a different temporal axis is mentioned in the Tiering System FAQ (Seriously people need to read that page)
 
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