Baki verse AP and small scaling Revision

[Mikazzzuchi]

I would like to welcome one and all to this parsing, which involves raising the level of Baki's verse, I'll start with a preface, I suggest.
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Multipliers, Yujiro's scaling and Doppo's Prime key.

This topic has been discussed on the wiki more than once with direct arguments that it's useless and contrary to canon, but I'll also add a couple of clarifications.
The endorphin multiplier is x2 (Hanayama says Baki is 2 times stronger than him, and after Baki plugged in the endorphins he immediately corrects the confirmation to x4), assuming that demon back is both narratively and shown to be the strongest multiplier in the manga, as well as Baki's main trump card (endorphins are even used by the athlete, by the way) I'll take the multiplier as exactly the same - x2.

Motobe is the character who lost to Kinryuzan(that was on par with IGARI), however, he was capable of fighting Yujiro on equal at the arc of Doppo and Yujiro's fight, but in the end Hanma used the demon's back, deeming Motobe worthy to do so.

If you're wondering why Yujiro has gotten so much stronger by the time of the tournament, it's all about his reactive evolution, with each fight he gets stronger and stronger, especially when it comes to fighting a strong opponent (chapters 49-50), the speed of this is so fast that Straydam, who knows Yujiro's power firsthand, compares the speed of evolution to the universe expanding infinitely at the speed of light.
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JP: “ユージローは 今この瞬間にも 強くなり続けて いる! 限りなく 広大な 宇宙が 光の速度で さらに膨張を 続ける ようにだ!!!”
to
EN: “At this very moment, Yujiro is getting stronger and stronger! Just as the endless expanse of space continues to expand at the speed of light!”
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強い - strong;

限りなく - unlimitedly, without limit, without end, endlessly, infinitely, exceedingly;

広大な - vast, enormous; extended;

宇宙 - cosmos, outer space, universe;

光 - light;

速度 - speed, pace
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Now, finally, let's get to the main topic.

Hanma Yujiro in his battle with Doppo Orochi is unable to counter Doppo in terms of both speed and strength, absorbing a huge amount of damage(15 KT) up to the point of using the demon's back.

Katsumi as well as Goki Shibukawa are fully scaled to Doppo in terms of physical characteristics, in one case it's a direct statement and in the other case it's shown(Both 15 KT).

Katsumi after becoming even stronger in his fight with Hanayama falls knocked out by a single punch from Retsu Kaio(15 KT)

Baki in his base state is able to fight Retsu on equal footing, at times even dominating and doing significant damage(15 KT in base state).

Baki in his fight with Biscuit Oliva, even using his back, is unable to easily overpower him, making him a pure equal in terms of physical strength, x2 multiplier(30 KT for Oliva).

Base state Yujiro has no trouble defeating Mr. Free, and since he is also able to use the demon's back he scales to 60 KT).
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Conclusion

Pretty much the entire tournament max and the others scale up to the earthquake feat, which gives them 15 KTs;
Everyone who scales up to Oliva reach 30 KTs;
Everyone who scales up to SOO Yujiro with his back, such as Baki or Musashi, reach 60 KTs

 

[NikHelton]

Oh Yeea

 

[NikHelton]

I've been raising the issue with Orochi's key for a long time, which broke the whole verse scaling

 

[Huesito88]

Looks good

 

[Excellence616]

Following.

 

[Viott]

Following.

 

[NikHelton]

It's cool when someone actually works on Bakiverse, and doesn't tell how they will do it, but only in words)
Finally there will be order in the verse ️
️

 

[Mikazzzuchi]

Bump

 

[Huesito88]

Free Bump

 

[NikHelton]

Yes, it seems fine

 

[NikHelton]

I think it works and can be accepted.

 

[NikHelton]

It makes sense

 

[NikHelton]

Changes look good.

 

[NikHelton]

I think after these messages we can accept it

 

[Huesito88]

I think after these messages we can accept it

A staff member still needs to comment

 

[NikHelton]

A staff member still needs to comment

Friend, it seems you didn't see my messages above. It says everything you need to accept the changes

 

[Kaiou1991]

Looks great, I agree.

 

[Huesito88]

Bump

 

[Mikazzzuchi]

Bump

 

[NikHelton]

Just call members
Stop bumping

 

[LordGriffin1000]

This revision looks good to me, I agree.

 

[Huesito88]

Bump?

 

[NikHelton]

Bump?

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

So first off you should definitely add references for every scan, I had to go and try and remember where all of these were, which was a pain in the ass. Also you should absolutely not use scans in a language other than English, especially since excluding some of the statements in those same scans changes their meaning greatly.

This topic has been discussed on the wiki more than once with direct arguments that it's useless and contrary to canon, but I'll also add a couple of clarifications.
The endorphin multiplier is x2 (Hanayama says Baki is 2 times stronger than him, and after Baki plugged in the endorphins he immediately corrects the confirmation to x4), assuming that demon back is both narratively and shown to be the strongest multiplier in the manga, as well as Baki's main trump card (endorphins are even used by the athlete, by the way) I'll take the multiplier as exactly the same - x2.

So this is all already riding on a bunch of assumptions: First off you're assuming Hanayama's judgement of Baki's power is 100% reliable, secondly you're assuming Hanayama is talking about raw power rather than overall fighting ability. Third the claim that it's stronger is pretty unfounded, it's not like Baki doesn't basically have endorphins always active by the time he's in the big leagues, Demon Back just adds to that. I don't necessarily disagree with any of this but it is all a concern.

Motobe is the character who lost to Kinryuzan(that was on par with IGARI), however, he was capable of fighting Yujiro on equal at the arc of Doppo and Yujiro's fight, but in the end Hanma used the demon's back, deeming Motobe worthy to do so.

He wasn't fighting Yujiro equally- he literally never even landed a hit on him, he was just barely keeping up (Yujiro literally praises him for being able to touch him). Yujiro used demon back to prove that he was still way stronger and put the fear of god in Motobe, not because he needed it to win.

JP: “ユージローは 今この瞬間にも 強くなり続けて いる! 限りなく 広大な 宇宙が 光の速度で さらに膨張を 続ける ようにだ!!!”
to
EN: “At this very moment, Yujiro is getting stronger and stronger! Just as the endless expanse of space continues to expand at the speed of light!”

Except that Motobe nearly caught up to him (compared to when they fought off-screen 8 years before, where he couldn't even see his attacks) just via regular training, without any similar kind of talent, and that Doppo also did much better against him in their Grappler Baki fight where in the flashback one he lost really badly. I'm not denying Yujiro grows in power but I don't think it's a kind of growth this massive, and definitely not the sort that'd pump up his stats so much after one easy fight.

Hanma Yujiro in his battle with Doppo Orochi is unable to counter Doppo in terms of both speed and strength, absorbing a huge amount of damage(15 KT) up to the point of using the demon's back.

The idea that Yujiro was getting greatly outmatched by Doppo in their fight is disingenuous. He tanked some of his best blows head-on (those same blows you claimed dealt "a huge amount of damage"... I'm just going to pretend that was a honest mistake) and while he did rip his shirt apart before countering Doppo's attacks, he only activated Demon Back after that, as a way to "reward" Doppo's spirit. Doppo is at best comparable to Yujiro but he's by no means superior. All he did was briefly put him on the backfoot with one very good technique, but Yujiro was winning even before he used Demon Back.

Katsumi as well as Goki Shibukawa are fully scaled to Doppo in terms of physical characteristics, in one case it's a direct statement and in the other case it's shown(Both 15 KT).

Gouki isn't equal to Doppo. His whole thing is that he's not very strong physically and makes up for it with sheer instinct and technique. The whole fight is about "hard" vs "soft" martial arts. He's relative but inferior.

Katsumi after becoming even stronger in his fight with Hanayama falls knocked out by a single punch from Retsu Kaio(15 KT)

Retsu makes this pretty clear this is because he's superior in technique, not strength. But sure.

Baki in his base state is able to fight Retsu on equal footing, at times even dominating and doing significant damage(15 KT in base state).

Sure.

Baki in his fight with Biscuit Oliva, even using his back, is unable to easily overpower him, making him a pure equal in terms of physical strength, x2 multiplier(30 KT for Oliva).

He does overpower him in the end, given he wins the fight.

Base state Yujiro has no trouble defeating Mr. Free, and since he is also able to use the demon's back he scales to 60 KT).

Sure

Pretty much the entire tournament max and the others scale up to the earthquake feat, which gives them 15 KTs;
Everyone who scales up to Oliva reach 30 KTs;
Everyone who scales up to SOO Yujiro with his back, such as Baki or Musashi, reach 60 KTs

The idea that max tournament characters are already town level is very silly. Spec takes 20 minutes to nearly destroy the Statue of Liberty while he's going all-out, Chiharu straight-up says his opponent's devastating punch is as strong as the time a bike ran him over, Dorian gets his ear chopped off by fishing wire and basically the entire main cast had to run the **** away when he pulls out a standard hand grenade and so on (this is by no means a comprehensive list, I literally just took 20 min to go through a bunch of the manga and pick a few things that stood out).

I'm not claiming max tournament-era Baki characters are consistently at any certain level because Baki characters are not consistent at all but that does not allow one to pick the absolute highest possible end in rating them when a lot of showings place them well beneath that level and up until what, late Son of Ogre? There's literally nothing that scales them that high. Whether this is because Yujiro stopping the earthquake is an outlier or because Doppo being able to match Yujiro is an outlier I don't know, but either way they shouldn't be rated that high.

It also just completely breaks the context of the series. Yujiro was always known as the world's strongest man even well before the events of 13 year old Baki's story. To say that ******* Chiharu could have given him a good fight back then and that some of the random sumo dudes in Dou could easily beat him if they'd just been born a few years earlier is ridiculous. Hell, some of these tier 7 fighters, like the death row convicts, were absolutely active and well known by the world's governments well before that time, and they were never given the special treatment Yujiro was (not even close lol). Olivia was literally working with the US government back then already, and according to you he was twice as strong as Yujiro back then.

 

[NikHelton]

I'm not claiming max tournament-era Baki characters are consistently at any certain level because Baki characters are not consistent at all but that does not allow one to pick the absolute highest possible end in rating them when a lot of showings place them well beneath that level and up until what, late Son of Ogre? There's literally nothing that scales them that high. Whether this is because Yujiro stopping the earthquake is an outlier or because Doppo being able to match Yujiro is an outlier I don't know, but either way they shouldn't be rated that high.

It also just completely breaks the context of the series. Yujiro was always known as the world's strongest man even well before the events of 13 year old Baki's story. To say that ******* Chiharu could have given him a good fight back then and that some of the random sumo dudes in Dou could easily beat him if they'd just been born a few years earlier is ridiculous. Hell, some of these tier 7 fighters, like the death row convicts, were absolutely active and well known by the world's governments well before that time, and they were never given the special treatment Yujiro was (not even close lol). Olivia was literally working with the US government back then already, and according to you he was twice as strong as Yujiro back then.

This is the main problem with the Earthquake feat that I talked about in previous threads.

This feat was done too early in the story thread and it affects the entire verse.

Don't think that I think it's right to scale the entire verse to the best God Tier feat. But that's what we have. We have no reason to think that Doppo has become weaker since the fight with Yujiro. He is constantly evolving and improving his techniques. Moreover, Katsumi noted that Orochi is still in good shape.

The rest of the characters are already downscaled to Doppo or match him and each other.

I think the whole problem lies in the 7-C calculation

 

[Armorchompy]

This is the main problem with the Earthquake feat that I talked about in previous threads.

This feat was done too early in the story thread and it affects the entire verse.

Don't think that I think it's right to scale the entire verse to the best God Tier feat. But that's what we have. We have no reason to think that Doppo has become weaker since the fight with Yujiro. He is constantly evolving and improving his techniques. Moreover, Katsumi noted that Orochi is still in good shape.

The rest of the characters are already downscaled to Doppo or match him and each other.

I think the whole problem lies in the 7-C calculation

I don't think ignoring the 7-C feat necessarily fixes all the issues either though. Like Yujiro is a god tier throughout Baki history, even if you say he's like, 9-A or whatever in the 13 yo Baki arc, then it'll still be really weird for characters from future arcs to be rated 8-B or whatever. So I think saying that the Doppo fight is the outlier (not because he got weaker but because it just doesn't fit the series as a whole) and that nobody consistently scales to Yujiro until the point where Baki manages to fig.ht him and other characters can put up a fight vs Musashi and Pickle is also a viable avenue. I dunno, I just don't think scaling everyone to the EQ feat is the way to do it.

 

[NikHelton]

I don't think ignoring the 7-C feat necessarily fixes all the issues either though.

This will actually solve the problem, because the characters in that story arc are 9-A/8-C, while the current Yujiro is at least 8-B+

Like Yujiro is a god tier throughout Baki history, even if you say he's like, 9-A or whatever in the 13 yo Baki arc, then it'll still be really weird for characters from future arcs to be rated 8-B or whatever.

This is where his constant growth and the growth of the rest of the characters in the series comes in.
Just because Yujiro is god tier doesn't mean he's superior to all the characters in the verse at any point in the story.
Flashback-era Yujiro had trouble with monsters like Yasha, but was later defeated by 13-year-old Baki.
Yujiro had trouble with Orochi, but now Doppo isn't even in the top 5 of the verse.
Power levels grow with Yujiro's powers, but Yujiro grows faster.
So it's not strange that Oliva at some point in the story became stronger than early Yujiro.
It's like Saitama, who could have been defeated by Blast or CosmoGarou, if you take Saitama at the time of the fight with Boros

So I think saying that the Doppo fight is the outlier (not because he got weaker but because it just doesn't fit the series as a whole) and that nobody consistently scales to Yujiro until the point where Baki manages to fig.ht him and other characters can put up a fight vs Musashi and Pickle is also a viable avenue. I dunno, I just don't think scaling everyone to the EQ feat is the way to do it.

Fight with Doppo is not an exception, but an important element of the story.
Exceptions can be considered when Yujiro was put to sleep with darts or when someone was able to hold him behind the door. The fight with Doppo only emphasizes the monstrosity of Yujiro's growth, showing that those who stood on equal terms with him before are now far behind

 

[Armorchompy]

This will actually solve the problem, because the characters in that story arc are 9-A/8-C, while the current Yujiro is at least 8-B+

And 13yo Baki-era Yujiro being 9-A when Max Tournament arc people would be 8-C isn't a problem to you?

This is where his constant growth and the growth of the rest of the characters in the series comes in.
Just because Yujiro is god tier doesn't mean he's superior to all the characters in the verse at any point in the story.
Flashback-era Yujiro had trouble with monsters like Yasha, but was later defeated by 13-year-old Baki.
Yujiro had trouble with Orochi, but now Doppo isn't even in the top 5 of the verse.
Power levels grow with Yujiro's powers, but Yujiro grows faster.
So it's not strange that Oliva at some point in the story became stronger than early Yujiro.
It's like Saitama, who could have been defeated by Blast or CosmoGarou, if you take Saitama at the time of the fight with Boros

That goes against the concept of Yujiro always having feared as being the absolute #1 for decades, the idea that everyone else who this scaling would give Yujiro level AP to only just so randomly happened to get it by the time he'd gotten stronger (even though a non-insignificant amount of Baki characters don't even really train that much) is a really specific headcanon that goes against what he's actually shown to be.

As for the Yasha ape... eh. Andou literally says that Yujiro was "at the peak of his strength" when he says that he struggled with the Yasha Ape, so the claim that this is meant to show his growth in power doesn't work at all. You could say he was wrong but if you assume he isn't a reliable judge then Yujiro didn't look like he really struggled all that much with her. Andou also claims he was a match for Yujiro in strength back then (lol) and he gets completely stomped by the Yasha Ape, so I just don't think whatever he says really holds much weight.

The claim that Yujiro's growth is faster than other characters makes zero sense given Motobe and Doppo both probably grew faster than him at some point.

Fight with Doppo is not an exception, but an important element of the story.

I don't really think that's a reason to give it special validity. It's also a really early element of the story and basically all the worldbuilding applied later kinda goes against it in retrospect.

I should probably work on this verse at some point. Even just the P&A is really lacking.

 

[NikHelton]

And 13yo Baki-era Yujiro being 9-A when Max Tournament arc people would be 8-C isn't a problem to you?

No, why should it be? Baki has become much stronger for the tournament.
Moreover, there are new 9-A+ calculations for 13-year-old Baki, as well as 8-C calculations for max tournament characters

That goes against the concept of Yujiro always having feared as being the absolute #1 for decades, the idea that everyone else who this scaling would give Yujiro level AP to only just so randomly happened to get it by the time he'd gotten stronger (even though a non-insignificant amount of Baki characters don't even really train that much) is a really specific headcanon that goes against what he's actually shown to be.

As for the Yasha ape... eh. Andou literally says that Yujiro was "at the peak of his strength" when he says that he struggled with the Yasha Ape, so the claim that this is meant to show his growth in power doesn't work at all. You could say he was wrong but if you assume he isn't a reliable judge then Yujiro didn't look like he really struggled all that much with her. Andou also claims he was a match for Yujiro in strength back then (lol) and he gets completely stomped by the Yasha Ape, so I just don't think whatever he says really holds much weight.

The claim that Yujiro's growth is faster than other characters makes zero sense given Motobe and Doppo both probably grew faster than him at some point.

I don't really think that's a reason to give it special validity. It's also a really early element of the story and basically all the worldbuilding applied later kinda goes against it in retrospect.

I should probably work on this verse at some point. Even just the P&A is really lacking.

No, we don't have the concept that Yujiro is always #1 in his verse at any given moment in history. He's just the strongest at the moment.

Orochi Doppo was comparable to Yujiro at one point. Katsumi surpassed him, and this Katsumi couldn't do anything against Pickle during their fight, never causing serious damage. Later, Baki defeated Pickle with techniques, and Yujiro is stronger than Baki. Thus, many current characters are superior to early versions of Yujiro.

To give a more current example, Pickle was able to surpass Yujiro in strength at the moment of his appearance, forcing him to use techniques. The current Pickle is completely overwhelmed by Jack and even loses consciousness from his blows for some time. Even in the same bites - while Pickle unsuccessfully tried to bite through Jack's trapezoid, Hammer bites off his flesh in their fight. Need I remind you that Yujiro made the current Jack cry with just a slap on the ass?

You have to admit that the level of the poem is constantly increasing, and Yujiro's level is no exception.

Yujiro completely overwhelms Sukune with pure physical strength, while Baki is forced to use a technique that nullifies durability because his instincts scream at him.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

No, we don't have the concept that Yujiro is always #1 in his verse at any given moment in history. He's just the strongest at the moment.

Orochi Doppo was comparable to Yujiro at one point. Katsumi surpassed him, and this Katsumi couldn't do anything against Pickle during their fight, never causing serious damage. Later, Baki defeated Pickle with techniques, and Yujiro is stronger than Baki. Thus, many current characters are superior to early versions of Yujiro.llifies durability because his instincts scream at him.

Actually, it's more about the writer, he probably didn't have a clear idea of how to move the story forward, so very old fights can contradict today's story. Yujiro was definitely always the strongest monster in the world, and I would like to add that most of the times Yujiro uses his demon back, he uses it to honor his opponent, not because he needs it (except for the baki and musashi fights)

To give a more current example, Pickle was able to surpass Yujiro in strength at the moment of his appearance, forcing him to use techniques. The current Pickle is completely overwhelmed by Jack and even loses consciousness from his blows for some time. Even in the same bites - while Pickle unsuccessfully tried to bite through Jack's trapezoid, Hammer bites off his flesh in their fight. Need I remind you that Yujiro made the current Jack cry with just a slap on the ass?

You have to admit that the level of the poem is constantly increasing, and Yujiro's level is no exception.

Yujiro completely overwhelms Sukune with pure physical strength, while Baki is forced to use a technique that nullifies durability because his instincts scream at him.

You are right that Yujiro is getting stronger all the time, but there was never a fight where he was able to use his power to the fullest.

 

[Viott]

Bump