Bahamut (Granblue) promotion, and possible Dragalia Lost inclusions?

[DannyF97]

Well, here I am I suppose. With Dragalia Lost's anniversary coming out tomorrow, I decided to consider where Bahamut would go nowadays, considering this would be Granblue's version of Bahamut placed in the world of Dragalia (a thing that has happened plenty of times before: see characters such as Cerberus, Lily, and etc).

So, to those wondering "why ask this now?", that is because the newest story chapter has given away a pretty big piece of information that would kill some birds with one stone.

In the new story chapter, The Two Creators, Elysium (the world's deity) confirms that he is not the original creator deity - that The Progenitor and The Origin both created the world the plot takes place in, then left, due to their conflict regarding how to manage the world and all the life in it. For context: Bahamut is The Origin. So, Bahamut is one of the two true creator deities. How it works is as follows: The Origin, Bahamut was the dragon deity, and The Progenitor was the human deity.

The red meat to this is that the Dragalia world has been confirmed multiversal. I wouldn't say infinite. When Elysium talks about the details that take us into the multiversal territory, he confirms that there was, in his words, "millions and millions of worlds". He later describes the amount of worlds as one where there may not even be a word to answer how many there was. He sought out these worlds not to destroy, and he didn't create them - but it was his goal to protect them all. To stop them from falling to ruin. So it stands to reason he has multiversal reach, right? Nothing would go on to say Bahamut and The Progenitor don't, either, when these are his superiors.

What I left out while trying to think, is though Elysium didn't create the world he has power in, he is pretty much the babysitter to it - using god powers for the place anyway, and trying to do his job as its protector, seeing as though Bahamut and The Progenitor were both absent.

Bahamut is once again relevant here because the plot spent the past chapter or two trying to prevent him being summoned into the world, with the cast knowing he would destroy the place in record time and not wanting it to happen. To get this situation, and apply it to these millions of worlds Elysium himself stated to exist, had any of himself, Bahamut or The Progenitor destroyed these, then they would be multiversal correct?

To get the point across on a much smaller scale: Zena is a version of a main character, Zethia, who comes from one of these ravaged worlds Elysium saw. So, we know that his words are sincere.

I have tried to upload a picture of the relevant dialogue, but it looks far too big in this post and I don't know how to manage pic size around here. I'm still new, so bare with me.

What I would propose is either raise Granblue's Bahamut to 2-A, or create a Dragalia version of Bahamut and place that there, then add in Elysium & The Progenitor for Dragalia Lost, and do the same for those.

 

[DannyF97]

Well, bump it is.

 

[DannyF97]

Bump bump bumpity bump

 

[DannyF97]

Bump, but I also want to add as a contribution to Elysium's tiering that when he entered his Void form (this done by Beren), he was seconds away from obliterating everybody in the main cast, and it took Zethia (the Auspex) making a pact with Bahamut to stop him (she had acquired several of Bahamut's attributes, plus his power more or less became hers). Even then, Elysium suffered no damage: she just sliced apart the fireball he shot that was of such increased power nobody could deal with it.

 

[DannyF97]

Moving kinda fast now lol... bump again.

 

[DannyF97]

How many bumperinos does it take to make a bumperino bump? Bump.

 

[DannyF97]

Buuuuump

 

[Urshani]

agreed

 

[DannyF97]

Yo, thanks for chiming in Meganova_Stella. Anyone else have any thoughts on this too?

 

[AKM sama]

@Starter_Pack I think this thread needs your input.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I think this makes sense. Though I'm not sure how to exactly evaluate this in terms of VSBW standards
For those curious though, here's some scans for the multiverse of Dragalia Lost and explanations:
Dragalia lost two creators scans

And for the transcript in the wiki.

EDIT: Should also note that possibilities in Dragalia Lost are actually universes, as stated by the official bio of Parallel Zodiark.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

following since i have recently returned to dragalia lost
also gonna ask for inputs from gbf thread

damn first Bahamut left his 2 speakers in granblue now he leaves 2 creators in dragalia lost
this dragon really is giving abandonment issues to his creations

as for the image scans you can try uploading it temporarily to Imgur or other image hosting sites then linking it here then just have them referenced on which chapter and story are these scans can be found

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

As for my input the problem with Granblue Bahamut is within Granblue he is actually split into 2 entities Sky and Astral as the Creation myth lore goes but The Speaker who watches over Granblue always imply that the real one before the split is either Asleep or have left Sky-realm and abandoned The Speaker. and that the 2 God Sky and Astral are still collectively the Speaker's master

But there were multiple instances that they did say Bahamut came from a different world and simply created this world to create a perfect one but this one rest over a primordial chaos that consist all the timelines from every dimension

I would agree with the 2-A only for the "Omnipotent" form of the Bahamut in Granblue and not the Ultimate bahamut / Astral Bahamut that currently is assumed the 2 half of the Omnipotent and nothing in gbf verse would scale with it

 

[DannyF97]

I think this makes sense. Though I'm not sure how to exactly evaluate this in terms of VSBW standards
For those curious though, here's some scans for the multiverse of Dragalia Lost and explanations:
Dragalia lost two creators scans

And for the transcript in the wiki.

EDIT: Should also note that possibilities in Dragalia Lost are actually universes, as stated by the official bio of Parallel Zodiark.

Hey, thanks for dropping all this, I thought the thread was dead before I got the notif lol.

But, to be a little retroactive, I think we can say with ease that Elysium specifically should be 2-A, going by what I know is set in place for 2-As.

See, Elysium confirmed the existence of millions of worlds (then millions more, because yes). Then, he went through all of them and altered pretty much all of them trying to make sure one was safe. We know then if he wasn't so benevolent - this probably would have been mass destruction by his hand. I also feel like adding how Void Elysium increases his powers. But, this first part absolutely sounds multiversal to me. Even Zena stems from one of the worlds he saw.

Not that you have an argument saying otherwise, I know that. This just wasn't quite what I said before.

As for Bahamut and Progenitor? They could make 2-A if we power scale them off Elysium (mind you, the anniversary teaser confirms Elysium will fight Progenitor, so we have more to work with). That makes sense to me when all 3 of them are now DL's top 3.

 

[DannyF97]

As for my input the problem with Granblue Bahamut is within Granblue he is actually split into 2 entities Sky and Astral as the Creation myth lore goes but The Speaker who watches over Granblue always imply that the real one before the split is either Asleep or have left Sky-realm and abandoned The Speaker. and that the 2 God Sky and Astral are still collectively the Speaker's master

But there were multiple instances that they did say Bahamut came from a different world and simply created this world to create a perfect one but this one rest over a primordial chaos that consist all the timelines from every dimension

I would agree with the 2-A only for the "Omnipotent" form of the Bahamut in Granblue and not the Ultimate bahamut / Astral Bahamut that currently is assumed the 2 half of the Omnipotent and nothing in gbf verse would scale with it

Hmm. I suppose that's fair. But this with DL means low 2-C wouldn't make much sense anymore. So what would we do? Make him a high 2-C? 2-B?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Granblue as a whole would remain low 2-C since it still remains as a singular universe

as for Origin Bahamut/Omni Bahamut he would scale independently with his own

We can either make a new Profile for Origin Bahamut or have a key in the current existing Bahamut which now exist on both franchise/verse

I would prefer a new profile as the current Bahamut from Granblue needs to be fixed and is missing a lot of abilities
since the Bahamut profile created from Granblue Fantasy is specifically Sky-God Bahamut

 

[DannyF97]

Granblue as a whole would remain low 2-C since it still remains as a singular universe

as for Origin Bahamut/Omni Bahamut he would scale independently with his own

We can either make a new Profile for Origin Bahamut or have a key in the current existing Bahamut which now exist on both franchise/verse

I would prefer a new profile as the current Bahamut from Granblue needs to be fixed and is missing a lot of abilities
since the Bahamut profile created from Granblue Fantasy is specifically Sky-God Bahamut

You have a good point. A'ight, so when possible Bahamut should have a new profile. Origin Bahamut... I think it would just look like Bahamut (Dragalia) right? But that's the easy part. It's true Granblue's still has stuff in need of a fix lol.

Now, getting to what to do for Bahamut, we realise in Dragalia he doesn't get much power wise outside of creating Dragalia's world... but he's still got to scale to Progenitor/Elysium right? So we might actually get something to work with that way.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

He would scale to Elysium and Progenitor but most of his abilities would be what he has been able to do/perform and feats he has been told to have done.

you also added Zethia possessing baha's powers and attributes that could work as a way of what power and abilities he has and bestowed her with for his powers and abilities

 

[DannyF97]

He would scale to Elysium and Progenitor but most of his abilities would be what he has been able to do/perform and feats he has been told to have done.

you also added Zethia possessing baha's powers and attributes that could work as a way of what power and abilities he has and bestowed her with for his powers and abilities

Yes, I forgot about Baha-Zethia for a good moment lol. She did no-sell Void Elysium who was about to wipe the rest of the main cast out (Ilia's words). To be doing that, then Bahamut still has to have absurd strength. Now, we know Zethia is possessing about a fraction of his power? Half of it? Confirming Bahamut himself would be even stronger than that.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Yes, I forgot about Baha-Zethia for a good moment lol. She did no-sell Void Elysium who was about to wipe the rest of the main cast out (Ilia's words). To be doing that, then Bahamut still has to have absurd strength. Now, we know Zethia is possessing about a fraction of his power? Half of it? Confirming Bahamut himself would be even stronger than that.

Bahamut would be unquantifiably higher but to an unknown degree thus he would only scale to what Elysium has shown tier wise which is millions and millions of different space-time/world/universe be around 2-B since it is still countable but really high into it

 

[DannyF97]

Bahamut would be unquantifiably higher but to an unknown degree thus he would only scale to what Elysium has shown tier wise which is millions and millions of different space-time/world/universe be around 2-B since it is still countable but really high into it

Tbh I could see a case for Elysium himself still being 2-A. We know Void status makes dragons noticeably stronger - now Elysium is there. Couple that with a being of his potency.

Bahamut, however, should fit 2-B very well. He scales to Elysium: but he still seems a little less. Bahamut is more like universal, with Elysium multiversal, going completely by feats.

For Progenitor, this also means 2-B going purely off scaling.

Ultimately, we could tier him so far, and then say his true strength is still at an unknown degree, for at least insofar we have no idea what Bahamut's true glory would offer. For that, he may have to take 2-B, and possibly higher.

 

[Starter_Pack]

How did a Dragalia Lost CRT nearly pass me by? I'm disappointed in myself.

Anyway, there are many, many instances where the existence of multiple worlds is stated. Zena herself stated the existence of many worlds, and by using the power of the Dawnshard, she sent her essence across many of these worlds in order to try and stop the disaster in which befell her own world.

Ilia also explained that the past and the future are all just alternate worlds, and that one change in a particular time can spawn an entirely new branch of possibilities.

The fact that Alfonse from Fire Emblem Heroes explains that his world is one with its own multiversal cosmology only bolsters this. And even the prologue of the Monster Hunter event starts itself by stating:

There exist countless worlds—
infinite as stars in the sky.


In one such world, great monsters
testify to the true power of nature
while hunters battle them in dazzling
displays of courage.

Suffice to say, there is evidence upon evidence that Dragalia Lost has a vast multiversal cosmology. Easily 2-B at the very least, but support from the FEH statement could easily push it to a solid 2-A considering the current power level of that verse.

I'll get on the whole "scaling" thing in a bit. I just wanted to 100% confirm without a doubt the cosmology's scale.

 

[DannyF97]

How did a Dragalia Lost CRT nearly pass me by? I'm disappointed in myself.

Anyway, there are many, many instances where the existence of multiple worlds is stated. Zena herself stated the existence of many worlds, and by using the power of the Dawnshard, she sent her essence across many of these worlds in order to try and stop the disaster in which befell her own world.

Ilia also explained that the past and the future are all just alternate worlds, and that one change in a particular time can spawn an entirely new branch of possibilities.

The fact that Alfonse from Fire Emblem Heroes explains that his world is one with its own multiversal cosmology only bolsters this. And even the prologue of the Monster Hunter event starts itself by stating:


Suffice to say, there is evidence upon evidence that Dragalia Lost has a vast multiversal cosmology. Easily 2-B at the very least, but support from the FEH statement could easily push it to a solid 2-A considering the current power level of that verse.

I'll get on the whole "scaling" thing in a bit. I just wanted to 100% confirm without a doubt the cosmology's scale.

Oh, thank you so much Starter. I saw you mentioned here and was wondering if you'd chime in lol. I suppose we're in agreement on Elysium's 2-A? It seems like he has the most favouring him for the spot at this point.

I want to include Bahamut and the Progenitor there too, truly, but they've not yet displayed as much as he has. I think we can argue, however, that it's still possible if we take their roles as original deities and use that to scale with Elysium, making for a clean three 2-A sweep.

Once the verdict is met, I guess we can get to it with these guys. I want to inquire about the Agito as well, but it feels like that's better with its own thread.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

How did a Dragalia Lost CRT nearly pass me by? I'm disappointed in myself.

Anyway, there are many, many instances where the existence of multiple worlds is stated. Zena herself stated the existence of many worlds, and by using the power of the Dawnshard, she sent her essence across many of these worlds in order to try and stop the disaster in which befell her own world.

Ilia also explained that the past and the future are all just alternate worlds, and that one change in a particular time can spawn an entirely new branch of possibilities.

The fact that Alfonse from Fire Emblem Heroes explains that his world is one with its own multiversal cosmology only bolsters this. And even the prologue of the Monster Hunter event starts itself by stating:


Suffice to say, there is evidence upon evidence that Dragalia Lost has a vast multiversal cosmology. Easily 2-B at the very least, but support from the FEH statement could easily push it to a solid 2-A considering the current power level of that verse.

I'll get on the whole "scaling" thing in a bit. I just wanted to 100% confirm without a doubt the cosmology's scale.

If it's 2-B, this is possibly one of the highest of all 2-Bs I've seen yet.

Elysium states that there are "so many worlds that a number cannot even describe it". That implies it could be larger than even massive numbers like Graham's number. And if that's not enough, from those already "numbers can't describe" worlds, each decision from those worlds creates another path of possibilities and worlds. So like, it branches off from already countless worlds. Very very high into 2-B I think.

If it's 2-A, then it'd still be above baseline but only by a bit, since the FEH and MonHun statement says its infinite worlds, and then we get Zena saying that each decision from those already infinite worlds creates new possibilities and worlds that branch off into manifold paths.

And we also know that its stated that it is the Origin who created possibility for the world, so Bahamut at full power should scale perhaps. Also, the Progenitor wishes to end possibility itself. We don't know how he'll do it, but it might be either merging all infinite possibilities and turning it into one universe, or just destroying everything and keeping one world. We don't know much yet about the Progenitor, but they also both created the multiverse so Bahamut and Progenitor at full power scale to the whole cosmology, definitely.

Zena with her pact is only using half of his power so she doesn't scale to Bahamut's full power (but then again what's half of infinity). Nedrick I think also has the other half, so he scales. Elysium probably scales too. Should be noted too that in Mars' Dragon Story, he was noted as being one of the mightiest of all Fire dragons barring Brunhilda, yet he got stomped by Elysium. So Ifrit and other Dragons shouldn't scale to Elysium. Morsyati and maybe Mids Zero scales. Euden of course scales too but prolly downscales since he didn't fight Elysium alone. Somewhere along here, I think Chronos would also scale. He IS pretty powerful. Also he has an attack that looks like a galaxy buster

Also I don't know much about Granblue Fantasy, but I thought that the character designs used in GBF and brought to DL are just like cameos or easter eggs- I don't know if there's any definitive proof that GBF should scale and share the same cosmology as DL. But hey if it does then that's great, we could get some speed buffs since iirc GBF is pretty fast.

Dragalia!Fatalis might get some buffs too since his Story says that he turns whole worlds into ash in few days and his roar shakes worlds. Now, this could either be Planetary or even Universal, since "World" in Dragalia Lost seems to refer to timelines. At the same time, you could argue that he just leaves them lifeless. Either way, other worlds being other timelines and universes are definitely thing- Zena and Parallel Zodiark's official media always describe other worlds and possibilities as "another universe" or "alternate dimensions".

So possibilities here definitely mean other, complete and full timelines and universes, and they exist, they aren't just merely abstract possibilities that might exist.

 

[DannyF97]

If it's 2-B, this is possibly one of the highest of all 2-Bs I've seen yet.

Elysium states that there are "so many worlds that a number cannot even describe it". That implies it could be larger than even massive numbers like Graham's number. And if that's not enough, from those already "numbers can't describe" worlds, each decision from those worlds creates another path of possibilities and worlds. So like, it branches off from already countless worlds. Very very high into 2-B I think.

If it's 2-A, then it'd still be above baseline but only by a bit, since the FEH and MonHun statement says its infinite worlds, and then we get Zena saying that each decision from those already infinite worlds creates new possibilities and worlds that branch off into manifold paths.

And we also know that its stated that it is the Origin who created possibility for the world, so Bahamut at full power should scale perhaps. Also, the Progenitor wishes to end possibility itself. We don't know how he'll do it, but it might be either merging all infinite possibilities and turning it into one universe, or just destroying everything and keeping one world. We don't know much yet about the Progenitor, but they also both created the multiverse so Bahamut and Progenitor at full power scale to the whole cosmology, definitely.

Zena with her pact is only using half of his power so she doesn't scale to Bahamut's full power (but then again what's half of infinity). Nedrick I think also has the other half, so he scales. Elysium probably scales too. Should be noted too that in Mars' Dragon Story, he was noted as being one of the mightiest of all Fire dragons barring Brunhilda, yet he got stomped by Elysium. So Ifrit and other Dragons shouldn't scale to Elysium. Morsyati and maybe Mids Zero scales. Euden of course scales too but prolly downscales since he didn't fight Elysium alone. Somewhere along here, I think Chronos would also scale. He IS pretty powerful. Also he has an attack that looks like a galaxy buster

Also I don't know much about Granblue Fantasy, but I thought that the character designs used in GBF and brought to DL are just like cameos or easter eggs- I don't know if there's any definitive proof that GBF should scale and share the same cosmology as DL. But hey if it does then that's great, we could get some speed buffs since iirc GBF is pretty fast.

Dragalia!Fatalis might get some buffs too since his Story says that he turns whole worlds into ash in few days and his roar shakes worlds. Now, this could either be Planetary or even Universal, since "World" in Dragalia Lost seems to refer to timelines. At the same time, you could argue that he just leaves them lifeless. Either way, other worlds being other timelines and universes are definitely thing- Zena and Parallel Zodiark's official media always describe other worlds and possibilities as "another universe" or "alternate dimensions".

So possibilities here definitely mean other, complete and full timelines and universes, and they exist, they aren't just merely abstract possibilities that might exist.

You said things a lot better than I ever could lol. Kudos on a well done explanation.

So when we get to it, what do we do tier-wise? No doubt, everyone this thread is regarding (Elysium, Bahamut, Progenitor) is T-2. But do we say 2-A? As you said, if we just went with 2-B, it's kind of making them tall among 2-B. At least 2-A would be closer to the truth without seeming to feel a tall order like say tier 1.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

We can go with "At least 2-B (Elysium stated that there are countless worlds that numbers can't describe it- worlds in Dragalia Lost are stated many times to be full universes, dimensions and timelines. Each of these countless worlds can branch into manifold paths), possibly 2-A (It's stated that the worlds are as infinite as the stars)"

2-A seems fine but also this might seem weird cuz "infinite as the stars" are obviously wrong because we know there aren't infinite stars actually. But this could also mean DL's universes DO have infinite stars and thus each world is infinite in size, High 3-A.

Speaking of infinite stars, the first Christmas event says that all the stars exist because Dragons made them in the first place. This is consistent with the fact that Dragon are literally nature itself, and in Harle's Adventurer story, the entire world is dying because all Dragons are gone.

 

[DannyF97]

We can go with "At least 2-B (Elysium stated that there are countless worlds that numbers can't describe it- worlds in Dragalia Lost are stated many times to be full universes, dimensions and timelines. Each of these countless worlds can branch into manifold paths), possibly 2-A (It's stated that the worlds are as infinite as the stars)"

2-A seems fine but also this might seem weird cuz "infinite as the stars" are obviously wrong because we know there aren't infinite stars actually. But this could also mean DL's universes DO have infinite stars and thus each world is infinite in size, High 3-A.

Speaking of infinite stars, the first Christmas event says that all the stars exist because Dragons made them in the first place. This is consistent with the fact that Dragon are literally nature itself, and in Harle's Adventurer story, the entire world is dying because all Dragons are gone.

Hmmmmm. So either 2-B with 2-A listed as possible still, or a straight jump to 2-A. It seems more safe to do it the first way for sure, but to my understanding simply going to 2-A would work in accordance with the standards too.

If nothing else, then for 2-A, Elysium is the backbone of things. If his going to and significantly altering millions of worlds isn't enough, then we actually have his Void variant: now it's common knowledge that a dragon who goes Void has its powers significantly enhanced. This in extension means Elysium has all his past powers but on a stronger scope now - and the point comes through because before Bahamut-Zethia came in, he was mere seconds away from one-shotting everyone of the main cast present, even Ilia and Euden (Euden who he struggled with just before going Void).

Bahamut and Progenitor would mostly be piggybacking off Elysium. Though, it's doubly true they have things working for them too. The only thing that could no-sell Void Elysium was a Zethia with Bahamut's vast power (only around half of this, though), and even Morsayati is straight up fodder to the Progenitor, who was also a lethality to the Dragalia world.

Of all these: I feel the most confident in giving Elysium 2-A. I have a feeling if his current versions aren't good enough, then his Reborn (when we get it) absolutely will be, for that is another increase in his powers.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Yeah the "safe" option is At least 2-B possibly 2-A but 2-A itself works. 2-B would be cool though since its not too much of an overcrowded tier and AP-wise it'd be pretty damn powerful.

Anyways Elysium even in Base should scale, then Void Ely gets even higher. We can discuss scaling sooner though but for now, I definitely agree with the DL multiverse being anywhere from 2-B to 2-A.

Starter Pack's a Sysop (I think that means a pretty high ranking?) and is a DL supporter so we could wait on their input more too. Maybe some other mods too. You could also make a new CRT about buffing but this one works I guess. Whichever gets the mods to notice and approve. This IS a pretty big buff after all. Large Planet all the way to Multiverse.

 

[DannyF97]

Yeah the "safe" option is At least 2-B possibly 2-A but 2-A itself works. 2-B would be cool though since its not too much of an overcrowded tier and AP-wise it'd be pretty damn powerful.

Anyways Elysium even in Base should scale, then Void Ely gets even higher. We can discuss scaling sooner though but for now, I definitely agree with the DL multiverse being anywhere from 2-B to 2-A.

Starter Pack's a Sysop (I think that means a pretty high ranking?) and is a DL supporter so we could wait on their input more too. Maybe some other mods too. You could also make a new CRT about buffing but this one works I guess. Whichever gets the mods to notice and approve. This IS a pretty big buff after all. Large Planet all the way to Multiverse.

Getting to individual profiles: I would place Elysium at 2-A flat out honestly. Bahamut and Progenitor could either follow suit or do as you said. Though, if we had to revise the power of the verse, we definitely could give a nod by pointing out there's room for 2-B here.

I'm with you. It seems Sysops are able to do the relevant changes? So I guess when Starter sees this. But if that's not the case, we can ask mods to do it for us. I wanted there to be something of a consensus so we could then go to who we have to ask to implement things. Just like you said, this is B I G for Dragalia's high-ends. They went from planet busters to multiversal.

For the end of Elysium/Progenitor/Bahamut, then we might as well use this thread to get things across to the mods and etc. When we get past that much, I want to see the Agitos covered. It will probably have to be another thread from here, because this is dedicated to Dragalia's top 3.

Of the mods, I had tried to ask DarkDragonMedeus, but got nothing. Maybe he was just too busy at the time?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Also I don't know much about Granblue Fantasy, but I thought that the character designs used in GBF and brought to DL are just like cameos or easter eggs- I don't know if there's any definitive proof that GBF should scale and share the same cosmology as DL. But hey if it does then that's great, we could get some speed buffs since iirc GBF is pretty fast.

we have to wait for kmr to actually make an official dragalia lost collab first
atm there is nothing tying it up other than Bahamut which I doubt is related at all since they seems to imply a lot that each Bahamut from each relevant franchise is different.
and IIRC the developers themselves said when they are making Granblue basing it from Rage of bahamut they are making a new independent one with its own stories
so these same probably applies to dragalia lost so separate Profiles


I agree with tiers being 2-B or 2-A

it really is a big leap of tiers but there is so much in the story supporting at least 2-B if not 2-A

 

[DannyF97]

we have to wait for kmr to actually make an official dragalia lost collab first
atm there is nothing tying it up other than Bahamut which I doubt is related at all since they seems to imply a lot that each Bahamut from each relevant franchise is different.
and IIRC the developers themselves said when they are making Granblue basing it from Rage of bahamut they are making a new independent one with its own stories
so these same probably applies to dragalia lost so separate Profiles


I agree with tiers being 2-B or 2-A

it really is a big leap of tiers but there is so much in the story supporting at least 2-B if not 2-A

Honestly, the case for 2-B or 2-A depends how you angle it. If you make Elysium the base of things, 2-A looks more fitting. But if you go by the root with Bahamut/Progenitor, one may be likelier to say 2-B. I say this because at the moment Elysium is the one multiversal in the way meant to be 2-A. Plus, the power increase his Void grants (and later, Reborn too).

The anniversary, and Two Creators chapter, was a very big day for Bahamut, Progenitor and Elysium - which is why the thread singles all three out.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Elysium being 2-A would mean Full Power Bahamut and Progenitor (when they made the whole DL cosmology) are also at that level, so maybe 2-A is better indeed. Remember, we're only seeing half of Bahamut's power from Zena, so Full Power Origin Bahamut is definitely stronger than even Void Ely. The only one Full Power Origin is comparable to is Full Power Progenitor, since in Bahamut's story its stated that they killed each other, leaving Elysium to try and keep watch over the multiverse. Of course eventually, we'll probably see Euden get endgame buffs making him comparable to Full Power Bahamut but that's not happening yet since it'll be down the line when that happens.

The Bahamut we see now as a Gala unit and for Gala Zethia is said to be a projection only, so that's also maybe why this half-powered Bahamut or Incomplete Bahamut isn't capable of speaking.

 

[DannyF97]

Elysium being 2-A would mean Full Power Bahamut and Progenitor (when they made the whole DL cosmology) are also at that level, so maybe 2-A is better indeed. Remember, we're only seeing half of Bahamut's power from Zena, so Full Power Origin Bahamut is definitely stronger than even Void Ely. The only one Full Power Origin is comparable to is Full Power Progenitor, since in Bahamut's story its stated that they killed each other, leaving Elysium to try and keep watch over the multiverse. Of course eventually, we'll probably see Euden get endgame buffs making him comparable to Full Power Bahamut but that's not happening yet since it'll be down the line when that happens.

The Bahamut we see now as a Gala unit and for Gala Zethia is said to be a projection only, so that's also maybe why this half-powered Bahamut or Incomplete Bahamut isn't capable of speaking.

Ohh, you do speak a very good point! Yes, Full Power Bahamut/Progenitor didn't just yet get accounted for - but seeing those at 2-B would be out of place, like if Elysium were to be there. (His case would make some sense at base, not as much at Void, and less so when Reborn when we get that). OK, I see where you're coming from. This can hence end with a clean 2-A sweep for all three.

Incomplete Bahamut/Progenitor might be 2-B worthy, but seeing how Zethia's powers no-sold Void Elysium, I find it hard to believe honestly. So I would lean to even placing these in 2-A.

With this, it seems we're all in agreement, right?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

In a gist:
Cosmology: Solid evidence for 2-B, also has statement with infinite worlds aka 2-A and with each of these infinite worlds further branching out in manifold paths. Each world might be infinite in size, due to the statement that stars in the world are infinite in number.

Origin Bahamut and Progenitor made the multiverse.

Then, Bahamut-Zethia, using half of Bahamut's power, managed to pretty much no-sell Void Elysium's attack. Should be noted that at this point Nedrick has the other half of Bahamut's power. This all happened after the fight with Base Ely.

Void Ely is obviously superior to Base Ely. Void Ely severely injured Euden and the rest. Ilia also states that they had a hard time fighting even Base Ely, so Void Ely would be even more of a problem.

Base Ely is around Morsayati's level. Morsayati wasn't able to be defeated easily by the ancient Heroes back then, which were Meene, MidsZero, Ilia, Mordecai and Zethia (time traveled).

Base Ely also fought Alberius, so he would scale too, along with Humanoid Mids who is basically present Mids.

Another one here would be Chronos. He's pretty much the fusion of almost all the Greatwyrms, so he should around at least Base Ely or MidsZero. Definitely higher than individual High Dragons.

Now, Base Ely utterly stomped Mars as stated in his Dragon Story, and Mars is considered to be one of the most powerful fire dragons. Mars however is weaker than even Base Brun. He needed to get jacked with alchemic upgrades to beat her, but then she just went High Brun and beat up Alchemic Mars. All High Dragons shouldbe relative to each other.

From there, there's other massive scaling chains but I won't get into it since its too many. The main focus of this CRT is Bahamut anyways.

 

[DannyF97]

In a gist:
Cosmology: Solid evidence for 2-B, also has statement with infinite worlds aka 2-A and with each of these infinite worlds further branching out in manifold paths. Each world might be infinite in size, due to the statement that stars in the world are infinite in number.

Origin Bahamut and Progenitor made the multiverse.

Then, Bahamut-Zethia, using half of Bahamut's power, managed to pretty much no-sell Void Elysium's attack. Should be noted that at this point Nedrick has the other half of Bahamut's power. This all happened after the fight with Base Ely.

Void Ely is obviously superior to Base Ely. Void Ely severely injured Euden and the rest. Ilia also states that they had a hard time fighting even Base Ely, so Void Ely would be even more of a problem.

Base Ely is around Morsayati's level. Morsayati wasn't able to be defeated easily by the ancient Heroes back then, which were Meene, MidsZero, Ilia, Mordecai and Zethia (time traveled).

Base Ely also fought Alberius, so he would scale too, along with Humanoid Mids who is basically present Mids.

Another one here would be Chronos. He's pretty much the fusion of almost all the Greatwyrms, so he should around at least Base Ely or MidsZero. Definitely higher than individual High Dragons.

Now, Base Ely utterly stomped Mars as stated in his Dragon Story, and Mars is considered to be one of the most powerful fire dragons. Mars however is weaker than even Base Brun. He needed to get jacked with alchemic upgrades to beat her, but then she just went High Brun and beat up Alchemic Mars. All High Dragons shouldbe relative to each other.

From there, there's other massive scaling chains but I won't get into it since its too many. The main focus of this CRT is Bahamut anyways.

One thing missing from Morsayati's part is how Elysium, with no real break in between, kept him busy for a week. A being of such fantastic power should have been able to get Elysium off guard at some point and end him there, but didn't.

The opening part of your post sets a good sort of standard for what we could consider "base" Bahamut and Progenitor - for simplicity's sake we'll say the versions in the plot. Stories would grant us Full Bahamut and Progenitor, which is where 2-A becomes the case.

Chronos is a case I want to delve into at some point, though, I would say to do that after we finish this, and preferably when the Agito are also out of the way. His event gave him enough power I think he would need a dedicated thread, just like here.

Yeah, Bahamut is the one this CRT singles out by name - Elysium and Progenitor just squeezing in as the first proper DL inclusions (the end part of the title is for them). I did have no idea what to do between giving Bahamut a DL profile, or using everything that came from DL to promote his GB profile - but Jedi has come to inform it'd be for the best we make him his own DL profile. Which is where getting into everything here is so interesting.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I am very very outdated with VSBW and this is a super rough page but here's a sandbox I made for Bahamut. Feel free to build up upon this and make it better, I'm not really the page-making type of gal.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ShinyMagicalGirl/sandbox2

 

[DannyF97]

I am very very outdated with VSBW and this is a super rough page but here's a sandbox I made for Bahamut. Feel free to build up upon this and make it better, I'm not really the page-making type of gal.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ShinyMagicalGirl/sandbox2

I'm new here honestly speaking, so not sure what I could be able to do - though powers and abilities would need stuff. You did very good for a sandbox version though!

It seems tier-wise we're going the 2-A path after all. I'd expect Elysium and Progenitor to follow straight after. Actually, what you've done here would make it quicker for those two. I think Elysium would have the most fleshed out one just because he has the most actual feats.

Overall, you have done good, this gets me looking forward to not only the other two this thread regards, but other DL names such as Chronos and the Agito. All in due time, though!

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Yeah, Elysium's page can made from this since he downscales from Bahamut. A Zethia page too would be great.

Anyways I'm not really the debating type or VS-page making type and just wanted to share info and stuff I've seen. Hopefully others go on and fully flesh these profiles for Dragalia Lost. These buffs are truly massive and I can at least help with just providing screenshots and stuff I've seen.

 

[Starter_Pack]

Okay, so I am mostly in agreement with a lot of the scaling being done here, and I am even willing to relent on the whole "Everyone is likely 2-A" bit. However, there are a couple of notes that I saw which I think was just getting carried away, and I'd like to hammer them out.

Dragalia!Fatalis might get some buffs too since his Story says that he turns whole worlds into ash in few days and his roar shakes worlds. Now, this could either be Planetary or even Universal, since "World" in Dragalia Lost seems to refer to timelines. At the same time, you could argue that he just leaves them lifeless. Either way, other worlds being other timelines and universes are definitely thing- Zena and Parallel Zodiark's official media always describe other worlds and possibilities as "another universe" or "alternate dimensions".

I feel like this is more of a turn of phrase, and not referring to a universal world. Remember, this is a dragon from the Monster Hunter franchise, whose canon counterpart has similar phrasing for his own lore, and even if it was taken literally, at most it would only get High 6-A, since it likely just means Fatalis will scorch everyone and everything in the world, rather than decimating the world itself, which would pale in comparison to the Ifrit feat. (Though, funny enough, MH's 5-A statistic comes from Fatalis moving the moon. Dragons love to lift moons, I guess.)

We can go with "At least 2-B (Elysium stated that there are countless worlds that numbers can't describe it- worlds in Dragalia Lost are stated many times to be full universes, dimensions and timelines. Each of these countless worlds can branch into manifold paths), possibly 2-A (It's stated that the worlds are as infinite as the stars)"

2-A seems fine but also this might seem weird cuz "infinite as the stars" are obviously wrong because we know there aren't infinite stars actually. But this could also mean DL's universes DO have infinite stars and thus each world is infinite in size, High 3-A.

The thing about the phrasing is, again, I believe it could be seen as hyperbolic. There are countless upon countless worlds, as has been stated multiple times, but I don't believe just using this statement is enough justification. That being said, if we can tack on the whole "countless doorways" statement from FEH's Alfonse, effectively noting that it's multiverse exists within Dragalia's, then we may have something there.

 

[DannyF97]

Yeah, Elysium's page can made from this since he downscales from Bahamut. A Zethia page too would be great.

Anyways I'm not really the debating type or VS-page making type and just wanted to share info and stuff I've seen. Hopefully others go on and fully flesh these profiles for Dragalia Lost. These buffs are truly massive and I can at least help with just providing screenshots and stuff I've seen.

Zethia has to get one too yes, though the usual Zethia would probably be barebones; the meat is in Bahamut's. If I wasn't feeling this tired I could've given it a whirl with Elysium, with this as reference lol. Seeing everything he has going on, it would be done resoundingly.

For that, you did excellent. I appreciate fully all you've brought to this. Starter Pack is meant to be coming back I believe, so that should be when Elysium & Progenitor join up into 2-A. If everything goes well, we could buckle up for the Agito afterwards.

So much has gone on for Dragalia, that I feel it's time this gets love too. If I knew which mods to ask, I'd try and get some here to see what they'd think of the tiering we decided on, which is pretty much a clean 2-A sweep for everyone relevant to the thread.