Azure Striker Gunvolt CRT: Third Game's Additions

[Parzival-Bo]

It definitely is, and I hope someone translates that soon. I wouldn't be shocked if Sidier is already working on it tbh.

Otherwise, I agree with everything so far.

 

[Smashtwig]

Sidier already finished awhile ago, I'll put a link to all of his scans later in the discussion thread

 

[Parzival-Bo]

Oh, sweet.

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, after discussing about it around the ASG circle, there's something worth discussing.

Okay, we accept that the fate stuff and Damnatio Memoriae are 2-A hax.

The issue? The latter is AP as far I can tell, we're accepting a character erasing multiple timelines as hax, which'd be Environmental Destruction at worst (I'd lean more into AP as the dude is literally tossing the universes around to the target as far visuals go), so I'd like to hear thoughts on the matter.

From the OP:

If we want to really lowball, we can segway that into the next topic: Damnatio Memoriae. By definition, Damnatio Memoriae is Latin for "condemnation of memory", indicating that a person is to be excluded from official accounts, as if they didn’t exist. Here, Moebius is doing it literally. I don’t know what to classify this as, but we do get a hint here: the japanese version of Damnatio Memorie has a simple name: “Erasing Existence”. From what we can see in the SP Skill animation, Moebius attempts to cut off (cut off the line that likely represents timeline, as each are separated from each other) every possible past versions of the victim that leads up to the person that is currently fighting him, destroying all versions of the subject’s past that led them to that point and erasing them from existence. In the video, there are events that don’t actually happen in the main story, such as Gunvolt and Asimov teaming up on Zonda, when in the main story, Asimov should be dead at that time- in addition, Asimov is wearing his glasses while using his Azure Striker Septima, when he normally has to take those off to use his Septima. Of course, this is all an educated guess, so… maybe this would be more of a “possibly/likely Timeline Manipulation and Existence Erasure”- but honestly I feel like it’s pretty clear cut.

There's also the fact that the target either is damaged or Prevades this attack, but isn't instantly killed. So does that mean Type 1 Acausality or just normal resistance if we accord to the above?

Notice that I said “possible pasts (timelines of their past) represented lines”, we could possibly scale Damnatio Memorie to Astral Order’s hax tier- as there is only so many (time)lines drawn on the screen (19 of them), we could lowball Astral Order’s hax to be 19 universes (2-C) to be concrete, and attach a “possibly/likely” Multiversal+ Astral Order.

So for conclusions for Astral Order, it’d be Precognition and Fate Manipulation (4D - Low Multiversal, possibly/likely Multiversal+), but I'll let the mods be the judge of this. Of course, abilities that help resist Astral Order such as Golden Trillion and Djinn (and The Muse due to being the same type of Stand)

Especially with how we're apparently currently accepting the whole deal, I think it'd be best to evaluate these implications and their validity, as if this is declined this could compromise the validity of the hax being tier 2 to begin with.

Now if anyone besides Morb-GV and probably Kirin would scale to this is up to debate either way.

 

[The_Smashor]

Okay, after discussing about it around the ASG circle, there's something worth discussing.

Okay, we accept that the fate stuff and Damnatio Memorae are 2-A hax.

The issue? The latter is AP as far I can tell, we're accepting a character erasing multiple timelines as hax, which'd be Environmental Destruction at worst (I'd lean more into AP as the dude is literally tossing the universes around to the target as far visuals go), so I'd like to hear thoughts on the matter.

From the OP:

Especially with how we're apparently currently accepting the whole deal, I think it'd be best to evaluate these implications and their validity, as if this is declined this could compromise the validity of the hax being tier 2 to begin with.

Now if anyone besides Morb-GV and probably Kirin would scale to this is up to debate either way.

It's hax, not AP. End of story.

 

[Xmark12]

If it was AP, then Zed would scale from Kirin just fighting him earlier on. Then everyone else scales afterwards. It'd be a complete mess. So yes, keep this as hax and not AP.

 

[Bobsican]

Eh, thing is that by defintion this is literally an AP feat and it'd be arbitrarily inappropiate to classify it as something else when it isn't just for convenience, if anything just make the scaling for anyone but GV an outlier as there's little justification for everyone else, although I recall Kirin was amped, and Zed also scaling by extension wouldn't be too crazy as I don't recall a proper reason for anyone else to scale to him either way.

 

[Smashtwig]

But Astral Order chooses a pre-made future, it’s not that they make a universe to follow that fate, Astral Order finds a timeline to choose rather than create one

they choose a hiking trail, not make one



wait ur talking about damnatio… huh

 

[The_Smashor]

But Astral Order chooses a pre-made future, it’s not that they make a universe to follow that fate, Astral Order finds a timeline to choose rather than create one

they choose a hiking trail, not make one

I mean, technically Astral Order has shown that it can do some other various things, such as induce death or hack into the Utu Media Tower to spread Dragon Radiation.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

Perhaps staff should be notified?

 

[The_Smashor]

Bump.

Perhaps staff should be notified?

Notified of what, that you're trying to wank physicals to 2-A based on what is clearly hax?

 

[Smashtwig]

Bump.

Perhaps staff should be notified?

Well, I don't have an input on Multiversal+ GV aside from "oh no my super spy GV", but that's been long gone since GV3's promotions tbh, I guess if you're willing to go that far... no one can really stop you from asking staff

 

[Bobsican]

Notified of what, that you're trying to wank physicals to 2-A based on what is clearly hax?

Eh, thing is that by defintion this is literally an AP feat and it'd be arbitrarily inappropiate to classify it as something else when it isn't just for convenience, if anything just make the scaling for anyone but GV an outlier as there's little justification for everyone else, although I recall Kirin was amped, and Zed also scaling by extension wouldn't be too crazy as I don't recall a proper reason for anyone else to scale to him either way.

 

[The_Smashor]

Eh, thing is that by defintion this is literally an AP feat and it'd be arbitrarily inappropiate to classify it as something else when it isn't just for convenience, if anything just make the scaling for anyone but GV an outlier as there's little justification for everyone else, although I recall Kirin was amped, and Zed also scaling by extension wouldn't be too crazy as I don't recall a proper reason for anyone else to scale to him either way.

No, it's not. You're just misinterpreting the feat to a dire level. Moebius isn't destroying universes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What's the current topic here?

 

[Parzival-Bo]

Moebius having 2-A hax via Astral Order/Damnatio Memoriae, and everyone arguing about who, if anyone, scales to it.

Everything apart from that seems to be agreed upon though. I know Smashtwig was already working on Sandboxes for that.

 

[Bobsican]

No, it's not. You're just misinterpreting the feat to a dire level. Moebius isn't destroying universes.

Uh... that's literally what the OP is arguing for at the moment, and in fact a part of the (currently accepted) argument for Astral Order to be 2-A, as said before, all I'm doing is exploring the implications of the current stuff being accepted and if they'd be appropiate.

If we want to really lowball, we can segway that into the next topic: Damnatio Memoriae. By definition, Damnatio Memoriae is Latin for "condemnation of memory", indicating that a person is to be excluded from official accounts, as if they didn’t exist. Here, Moebius is doing it literally. I don’t know what to classify this as, but we do get a hint here: the japanese version of Damnatio Memorie has a simple name: “Erasing Existence”. From what we can see in the SP Skill animation, Moebius attempts to cut off (cut off the line that likely represents timeline, as each are separated from each other) every possible past versions of the victim that leads up to the person that is currently fighting him, destroying all versions of the subject’s past that led them to that point and erasing them from existence. In the video, there are events that don’t actually happen in the main story, such as Gunvolt and Asimov teaming up on Zonda, when in the main story, Asimov should be dead at that time- in addition, Asimov is wearing his glasses while using his Azure Striker Septima, when he normally has to take those off to use his Septima. Of course, this is all an educated guess, so… maybe this would be more of a “possibly/likely Timeline Manipulation and Existence Erasure”- but honestly I feel like it’s pretty clear cut.

There's also the fact that the target either is damaged or Prevades this attack, but isn't instantly killed. So does that mean Type 1 Acausality or just normal resistance if we accord to the above?

Notice that I said “possible pasts (timelines of their past) represented lines”, we could possibly scale Damnatio Memorie to Astral Order’s hax tier- as there is only so many (time)lines drawn on the screen (19 of them), we could lowball Astral Order’s hax to be 19 universes (2-C) to be concrete, and attach a “possibly/likely” Multiversal+ Astral Order.

So for conclusions for Astral Order, it’d be Precognition and Fate Manipulation (4D - Low Multiversal, possibly/likely Multiversal+), but I'll let the mods be the judge of this. Of course, abilities that help resist Astral Order such as Golden Trillion and Djinn (and The Muse due to being the same type of Stand)

I don't need to explain that erasing timelines are among the most blatant tier 2 feats on the site, especially with how he's tossing them around to the target, so at worst it'd be 2-C outside outliers or the whole argument for tier 2 hax being compromised out of losing one of its main backbones.

Also, I'm arguing this part for physical stats (with Damnatio Memoriae, Astral Order in itself is hax, yes), not merely hax, especially if this'd scale to anyone outside GV (most notably Kirin) out of a basic case of both trading blows.

 

[Smashtwig]

What's the current topic here?

Moebius having 2-A hax via Astral Order/Damnatio Memoriae, and everyone arguing about who, if anyone, scales to it.

He means, scaling to it physically, I'm quite sure everyone agrees with Gunvolt having the 2-A Hax with the new patched up True Ending, where he flat out controls Astral Order.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

2-A range/hax seems reasonable. Reality Warping can be AP under some circumstances if it's significant reality warping. But scaling it to physical stats is the part that seems iffy.

 

[Smashtwig]

Bet, case closed. It's already scary enough that we have 2-A Hax GV as it is

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, I concede then.

 

[Parzival-Bo]

I think that covers just about everything for now, then. I suppose we'll meet again once Epilogue ATEMS concludes.

 

[Xmark12]

There's one more thing I actually like to discuss, but it isn't related to GV3, instead all of GV as a whole. Dunno if I should create my own CRT for this or not, but:

Currently, we have all characters as sub-rel+ travel speed via scaling to Ghauri, however... I feel like that calculation is massive wank.

Not even counting that Nori, a normal person on a normal motorcycle (yes she's hinted to be someone from Gal Gun bla bla bla she's still riding a normal motorcycle), was able to keep up with Ghauri, it just doesn't make sense with how the series is structured. Unless we're implying a normal Sumeragi, Eden, or ATEMS grunt is sub-rel+ too for being able to hit the protagonists, it's nonsensical to have sub-rel+ to be their travel speed, or motorcycles in this world is sub-rel+, or the maps are just so big that sub-rel+ travel speed characters take minutes to get to their locations. Kirin also uses a motorcycle to speed into the intro stage too rather than running with her "sub-rel+" travel speed.

More realistically, all characters, or at least Adepts, should be Superhuman in travel speed via Ghauri tying in speed with a motorcycle. Copen would be higher with bullit dashes and same for GV using electromagnetism.

Overall, in the first place I just think it's wrong to pixel scale Copen's laser shots, since in the Copen boss fight, they're much, much slower, making it inconsistent anyways. Plus, we have different calcs by now to use as AP, so we don't even need the Ghauri calc for AP anymore.

 

[The_Smashor]

Not even counting that Nori, a normal person on a normal motorcycle

It's not a normal motorcycle. This shit can easily ram through crystals with tier 7 durability several times over. Not to mention Nori has the budget to get a small spacecraft, do you really think she's gonna have an ordinary motorcycle? That'd be like Batman using a regular car.

 

[Xmark12]

That still doesn't solve the logical inconsistencies of storming a base taking minutes (in GV's case storming the orbital elevator took an entire night), Kirin using a motorcycle instead of being on foot to storm the Sumeragi research facility, Copen stating the G-forces of his bullit dashes kill normal people, and everything else I discussed.

 

[The_Smashor]

That still doesn't solve the logical inconsistencies of storming a base taking minutes (in GV's case storming the orbital elevator took an entire night)

That's because of the speed of the elevator, not to mention him fighting Merak, Stratos, Viper, Jota, Elise, Copen, Nova, Carrera and Asimov in that time.

Kirin using a motorcycle instead of being on foot to storm the Sumeragi research facility

Rule of cool and she also probably dosn't have just a normal motorcycle. Also, she got off of it as soon as she actually got into the facility.

Copen stating the G-forces of his bullit dashes kill normal people

I don't see how this is an anti-feat for speed at all

and everything else I discussed.

You only discussed Nori. Also, even without the whole "being a demon" thing, Nori's considerably above normal humans in the verse. Copen believed she could single-handedly take down an entire Sumeragi facility with nothing but a big gun, and she was able to cut through Asmiov's Voltaic Chains with a normal knife, as well as getting Copen out of the way of said chains after they started going after him. Nori is blatantly superhuman, regardless of weather or not she's a demon.

Also, she's a demon.

Overall, in the first place I just think it's wrong to pixel scale Copen's laser shots, since in the Copen boss fight, they're much, much slower, making it inconsistent anyways.

Blatant game mechanics. Literal hitscan is unfair for a video game boss' projectiles.

 

[Xmark12]

I'm talking normal stages. It doesn't make sense for it to take minutes to complete a stage if the character just blitzes past everything in a single second, which your calc implies, going against the mission theme of the GV series. Do you think it really makes sense for them to be sub-rel+? With that speed, they'd already be at the boss in less than a second.

That highway Nori was driving on while chasing Ghauri? Damn, that must lap the planet. That motorcycle Kirin was driving? Damn, the Sumeragi base must be a country wide long. Copen's Bullit Dash? Damn, I can't believe he's in New Mexico now because of how fast he went. Guess that stage in iX where Copen had to jump from floating cargo vehicle to floating cargo vehicle meant that each vehicle was thousands of kilometers apart from each other.

 

[Smashtwig]

which your calc implies

not his calc lol

 

[Smashtwig]

Overall, in the first place I just think it's wrong to pixel scale Copen's laser shots, since in the Copen boss fight, they're much, much slower, making it inconsistent anyways. Plus, we have different calcs by now to use as AP, so we don't even need the Ghauri calc for AP anymore.

Copen's laser shots are slowed down so that they player can dodge it, tbh i was about to make a speed calc with GV running alongside the laser tbh, and that shot is confirmed to be photons, I have a literal GV Lightspeed compendium for consistency

I do agree than using hitscan lasers for speed calcs is sus tho



the thing with this verse and speed is that we know dang well combat speed is light speed, it's like, the most consistent thing ever, yet when it comes to how GV and Copen dodge attacks, they literally sprint or use their Bullit Dashes to move outta the way, which should be the same as travel speed- but we know for sure that they don't sprint their way to get from place to place.


As for getting place to place, I agree that it doesn't make sense, but a lot of other verses... do that shit. Cloud from FF7R moves at lightspeed or something and the dude spends the entire game still in Midgar, in fact the first bombing mission takes like, several hours of the game, and Cloud also does use a motorcycle too. Mario's MFTL, dude takes like an entire second to travel down a pipe. Mega Man's MFTL, dude's doing that whole walk cycle taking his time in Wily's Castle, and didn't immediately **** up Wily when he tried to steal the Robot Masters in 11. The Mega Man Zero series follows the exact same mission theme as GV does, both being made by the same company- dude's MFTL and he doesn't clear stages like that. That stupid ass blue rodent sonic moves at apparently MFTL due to some dumb asteroid shit on a spaceship, but it takes him a bit to make through Green Hill before he gets his fade ran by Infinite, dude travelled through so many cities at supposedly "lightspeed" already. Naruto characters can spend entire episodes bunny hopping on trees or airplane running at a slow pace yet they're sub-rel. I'd say GV shouldn't be singled out on this just because it's an indie verse, when literally every video game does that shit. I do like tier 9 level grounded GV, but that stuff is long gone bruh.

I think it's best to get rid of the sub-rel+ tho, the calc is kinda sus to me, just having SoL in general seems fine

 

[Smashtwig]

Copen believed she could single-handedly take down an entire Sumeragi facility with nothing but a big gun

deadass? where?

 

[The_Smashor]

deadass? where?

In the Drama CD.

 

[Smashtwig]

In the Drama CD.

bruh which one

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

So just played the DLC with Nova in it. This clearly cant be a Serpentine illusion as they would have made mention of it. And Kirin and Nova got sent to another world. But Nova here is clearly the same Nova who fought GV in the past. And now has the Azure Striker Septima in him, cause....reasons? He couldn't control it but now he can now with it implanted in him on top of his other Septima? Granted Kirin says he is struggling to use both Septimas at the same time, but still. It gives me so many questions, like, how did Nova end up in this world? How did he survive? I mean on one hand, it does give us the answer that Nova does scale to GV, but the logistics and unanswered questions don't help. Hell, they flat out just leave him there to return to their world. And again I have strong doubts about it being an illusion cause they make no mention of it, and Serpentine was already beaten at this point. And then there is the revised ending, showing Gunvolt and Moebius combining their power to reverse a doomed future.

 

[Smashtwig]

So just played the DLC with Nova in it. This clearly cant be a Serpentine illusion as they would have made mention of it. And Kirin and Nova got sent to another world. But Nova here is clearly the same Nova who fought GV in the past. And now has the Azure Striker Septima in him, cause....reasons? He couldn't control it but now he can now with it implanted in him on top of his other Septima? Granted Kirin says he is struggling to use both Septimas at the same time, but still. It gives me so many questions, like, how did Nova end up in this world? How did he survive? I mean on one hand, it does give us the answer that Nova does scale to GV, but the logistics and unanswered questions don't help. Hell, they flat out just leave him there to return to their world. And again I have strong doubts about it being an illusion cause they make no mention of it, and Serpentine was already beaten at this point. And then there is the revised ending, showing Gunvolt and Moebius combining their power to reverse a doomed future.

I wanna get Moebius, Zed, and Kirin (and GV technically) done before we do that, so I'll let you guys deal with that

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Well the revised ending does involve Moebius. Idk if its useful for scaling more so it being a clarification of why GV decided to fricc of elsewhere as a ball of light.

 

[Parzival-Bo]

Astral Order is already 2-A hax, timeline-hopping bullshit is well within its range. So presumably Moebius launched us over to a world where Nova survived somehow, either accidentally or on purpose.

Either way, that's more hax for Moebius and GV, as if they needed it. And I guess Nova will eventually get a Third Revenger key on par with the verse's top-tiers, but that can wait. Besides, we've also got the

Spoiler: 1.4.0 Leaked Boss

Asimov

fight to wait for, plus whatever Epilogue ATEMS has in store.

 

[Gaaraofthedesert801]

Astral Order is already 2-A hax, timeline-hopping bullshit is well within its range. So presumably Moebius launched us over to a world where Nova survived somehow, either accidentally or on purpose.

Actually, that fully lends more credence to the iX 2 Kirin dlc fight being canon as well. She implied during that dlc that Moebius could send you to other worlds, long before GV 3 came out. Actually if I recall right the boss rush for GV 3 says its another world as well. So if Kirin can be sent to fight Copen, I guess her and GV being sent to fight a surviving Nova isn't out of the question. Difference being Copen actually wins his fight against her while Nova doesn't.

 

[Parzival-Bo]

OOOOOOOKAY. Been a while. But we got a lot to add since last time (I will spoiler-tag some of the Epilogue ATEMS stuff just in case though)

• Grand Master Asimov key, scales to Post-Dragon GV and Zed and gives him Septimal Surge, just like Third Revenger Nova.
• That Asimov is heavily implied to lead into or compare to LAiX Demerzel, so that solves LAiX2's lack of concrete improvement from iX1 as well.
• Zed's basic abilities got a lot more fleshed out, although I don't think the Dragon Saviors except Kirin scale to him, Zed whips them pretty casually.
• Serpentine is an expert fortune-teller apparently. Doesn't seem combat-viable but it's still an ability we should take note of.
• Spoiler

  Luxia's gonna need a solo combat key, and a pretty damn strong one at that. Scales to Zed, telekinesis, Illusions, and Light Manip at bare minimum.
• I'm also able to prove GV3 main cast at three times FTL (I could've done this before but Zed gave me extra supporting evidence)