Avalon Scaling Fix

[Wankbreaker]

I was told by a staff member I did not have to seek approval for this, as long as I had good enough new evidence to present (which will be presented late into the CRT). So no derailment.


For starters, the 6D Avalon rating should not exist for the verse. While Avalon being 6D itself is so far uncontradicted, what I am proposing is the fact that no character actually truly scales to it.

Merlin states that no matter what goes on outside Avalon, it is unaffected and uninvolved.

"No matter how much the apocalypse rages on Earth, this is another world that remains unaffected and uninvolved."

どれほどの終末が地上に吹き荒れようと、影響は受けず、また干渉しない別世界


The Kanji for Earth here can either mean on the surface, or the entire world/”planet”.

I am putting planet into quotes here, as oftentimes, mentions of the “planet” do not encompass the innersea/planets soul, and just what is outside of it.



Considering that Avalon is said to

1. Be a separate, isolated world
2. Be free from all the laws of the world

Yeah, I'm leaning towards the latter. Not like it makes a difference, as the whole entire point is that nothing that happens is going to reach into it and destroy it.

https://imgur.com/a/avalon-wIQmmAF

"It is isolation. Shielded from the prayers of the outside world by a faerie's light of selection , it is a world seperate and unreachable from this one. Saber, protected by the sheath of the holy sword, is in this moment alone severed from all the laws of this world. The strongest defense in this world. A singularity untouched even by the five magics, it is the ultimate “one”, inviolable by any."


Avalon also creates the numerous parallel worlds in the World:

あるものは希望だけ。この星を、
そしてキミたちをハッピーエンドに向かわせるため、 あらゆる可能性を綴つづり織おる工房なのさ。

"It is a workshop that weaves and composes all possibilities."

This means it is entirely seperate and isolated/superior to the concept of parallel worlds, which is also supported by this entry.

アヴァロン。
アーサー王伝説における常春の土地、妖精郷の名を
冠した鞘。
アヴァロンはギリシャ神話において、不死の林檎®があるとされる島から連想されたという理想郷。
持ち主の傷を癒し老化を停滞させるだけでなく、真名を以って開放すれば数百のパーツに分解し、所有者をあらゆる干渉から守りきる。
聖剣の鞘はアインツベルンがコーンウォールより発
掘し、アーサー王召喚の触媒として切嗣に与えたもの。
魔法の域にある宝具で、あらゆる物理干渉、並行世界からのトランスライナー、多次元からの交．（六次元まで）をシャットアウトする。
セイバーがこれで引き篭もったら手におえない。


Avalon. The name of the land of the eternal spring, the realm of fairies in the legend of King Arthur, that was given to the scabbard. Avalon is a idealistic land, said to be associated with an island from Greek mythology where immortal apples are found. It not only heals the owner's wounds and slows aging, but if its true name is invoked, it disassembles into hundreds of parts, protecting the owner from all interference. The scabbard of the holy sword was excavated from Cornwall by the Einzberns and given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur. As a Noble Phantasm within the realm of Magic, it blocks all physical interference, trans-linear interference from parallel worlds, and cross-dimensional interference (up to the sixth dimension). If Saber retreats into this, it becomes impossible for anyone to manage.

Ignoring the fact that this states that it “protects the holder from all interference”, and the fact that it is “impossible for anyone to manage” once Artoria uses this NP, all interference from parallel worlds/the parallel world system is blocked, further supporting the idea that it is truly separate, in addition to superior..

Why is this important?

I propose this question.

If something is stated to be completely isolated and seperate from the world + all parallel timelines, as I've given proof for, why would the destruction/death of the “planet” in a singular timeline affect Avalon?


We know that the planet in notes supposedly dies sometime before the year 3000, yet notes itself, and a few other stories set past the year 3000, like OC3 and Tsuki no Sango, still exist. Since the inner sea of the planet weaves/creates all parallel worlds upon the earth, and this currently scaling argues that the destruction/death of the planet = the destruction of the inner sea, does this not go against this argument?


Keep in mind, Arcueid says no one in existence has enough power to destroy the Earth. Her perspective is wider than others,because she is the Brain of the Earth itself. She is the highest authority on the matter. Even if we take this to it’s absolute downplay limit and say this is about herself, Arcueid at full power is the second strongest character in the verse. She is admitting than even herself at full power could not destroy Avalon. A weaker, servant version of regular Arcueid created excessive stress on the Moon Cell’s systems by EXISTING, and Tamamo says she could manipulate it like it was her own Reality Marble.


“ Because she is first and foremost an Elemental of the Earth, her presence and activities in the Moon Cell causes excessive stress within the systems. “

https://imgur.com/a/zXBvbRO

TLDR? The inner sea is absolutely unreachable from “destroying” the “planet” in a singular timeline. The inner sea blocks attacks made from “parallel worlds”, so anything bound to that system would automatically be blocked against.. If the inner sea was destroyed, all of the parallel worlds, and everything in them, would fade, including the attacker. It is noted to be “seperated” and “unreachable” as well.


Also, the timeline system is 4D, meaning anything bound to it is also 4D, and is thus definitely not capable of destroying the inner sea.

https://imgur.com/a/NNWMsUM

He is describing the timelines in this scan. Each branching timeline follows the 4th dimension.


The Moon Cell being an 8D structure directly comes into conflict with this, as it is bound by timelines,with there being one in every extra world, rather than 1 in existence, like Avalon and the Throne.

Considering the only 2 things that ARE confirmed to have more spatial dimensions (the Throne and Avalon) are cut off and isolated from all parallel worlds in existence, aka not bound to this fourth dimension, this holds more credence.

The fourth dimension itself is also related to Imaginary Number Space, as that is where it is located.

INS is cited as the reason why Tiamat can be considered a 4D pocket, as she is a pocket that leads to INS.

However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.

Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.


This is also repeated in SE.RA.PH, where BB calls Passionlip’s Breast Valley (which is an INS pocket) fourth dimensional.

BB Still, what's with this place? I thought Breast Valley was just a term for cleavage, not an actual valley!
BB I know there are plenty of big boob lovers out there, but this is ridiculous! Hasn't her designer ever seen a real woman!?
BB As an AI myself, I find it atrocious! What sort of demon came up with a skill in such poor taste!?
Choices
You did.
BB How could you say that...? Sure, I may have been personally responsible for Lip's creation...
BB ...but I wasn't being malicious with her character design or anything. I just poured everything I disliked about myself into her...
BB ...and added the fourth-dimensional pocket
in her rack 'cause I thought it'd be funny...

This is important because INS is also stated to be a “sea of time”, that is completely separate from the world and “contains all possibilities”, which lines up with the 4D scan sent previously.


今から行われるのはカルデア初期に想定されたものの、
その困難さ、危険性から廃止された事象干渉手段。


あると定義しなければこの世界は成立せず、
かといって我々には触れる事のできない領域。
即ち、マイナスの世界への挑戦だ。

"What is about to take place is a method of event interference that was initially conceived by Chaldea, but was later abandoned due to its difficulty and danger.

It is a realm that must be defined as existing for this world to be established, yet it is an area we cannot touch. In other words, this is a challenge to get to the negative world."

この世界の隙間に入りこみ、
現実から完全に消失する“時の海”に沈む行為だ。

"It is the act of slipping into the cracks of this world, Sinking into the 'sea of time' where one completely vanishes from reality."

Pruning also works by manipulating this 4th dimension.

地上には「並行世界」とい仮説がある。

世界は一つではなく合わせ鏡のように無数に展開しており、
だからこそ未来は一つきりではない、という考え。
つまりは――

こういう事だと捉えればいい。
いまのあなたはこの時間流のどこかにいるあなたという事だ。

実感は湧かないかもしれない。
なにしろ人間には「世界の壁」を知覚する事も、超える事もできないのだから。

だがこう言い換えればどうだろう。
並行世界とは、即ち可能性の事なのだと。

ありえたかもしれない結末。
切り捨ててしまった関係。
気付くことさえなかった選択。

そういった「もしも」を許容する事で変わる未来。

正確には「変動する未来のある世界」が、並行世界と呼ばれるものだ。

いま生きているあなた――
現在にいるあなたの行いによって、世界はいかようにも変動する。

それは可能性が生きていることの証左であり、
あなたの世界が「正しい軸」にある事を示している。

逆に言えば。
もう何を選んでも未来が変わらなくなった世界に、
並行世界は存在しない。

それはただの行き止まり。
過去に戻る事さえできなくなった、孤独な単一の世界だ。

それは必ず生まれてしまう構造的必要悪だ。

人々に選ばれなかった選択が続いた世界は、
あなたのいる「世界」と同じ姿を保てるはずがないのだから。

致命的な選択を続けた事で滅びた世界もあるだろう。
革新的な世界を続けて文明レベルがあがりすぎた世界もあるだろう。

そうなってしまってはもう「他と同じ世界」とは数えない。
世界の基盤がズレてしまったのなら、
それは別世界というべきものだ。

なぜそれが孤独な世界なのか？
どんな未来になっても並行する可能性はあるはずだ、だって？

残念だがそれはない。
間違ってしまった世界の顛末を増やすために使うエネルギーは、
この次元には存在しない。

このように、
増え続ける並行世界はいずれ次元の容量を超えてしまう。

並行世界というものはなくてはならないものだが、
ありすぎてもいけないものだ。

おおざっぱな目算だが、
地球の文明レベルであれば百年も続けばこの太陽系は破裂するだろう。

だが事実として我々は生存し、繁殖している。
太陽系は情報量によって緩和することなく、
むこう一億年は今の方式で存続できる。

理屈は簡単だ。
世界という者はある程度進むと可能性の統計をとり、
「次の時代の運営」に無理のない結末だけを存続させる。

不要と判断した世界の並行世界――
その未来を閉ざすんだよ。

具体的に言うと百年単位で「ここまで」と集計をとって、
「少なくとも、あと百年は続けられると」と
保証された世界だけに可能性を許す。

質量保存の法則にならっていえば、
これは事象保存の法則と言えるだろう。

だからあまたに存在する並行世界に文明のズレはない。
大樹をイメージすればいい。
成長を続けられるのは幹である中心の部分だけ。
すくすくと育った枝葉はいずれ限界を迎え、未来なく崩壊する。

わかっただろう？

いきすぎた崩壊、いきすぎた進化をとげた世界に
並行世界かのうせいは存在しない。
そういった異世界は、もう結末が決まってしまった袋小路デッドルートにすぎない。

この伐採のタイミング。
余計な可能性を掴み取り、
観測によって変動しがちな歴史を不動のものにするポイント。

これを旧世界の魔術師たちは事象固定帯――
人理定礎と呼んでいた。




"On Earth, there is a hypothesis called 'parallel worlds'.

The idea is that the world is not singular, but unfolds infinitely like facing mirrors, and that's why the future is not just one possibility. In other words--

You can understand it like this: You, right now, are you at some point in this time stream.

It might be hard to grasp. After all, humans can neither perceive nor cross 'the walls of the world'.

But what if we put it this way? Parallel worlds are, in essence, about possibilities.

An ending that might have been. A relationship that was cut off. A choice you never even noticed.

A future that changes by allowing such 'what ifs'.

To be precise, a 'world with a fluctuating future' is what's called a parallel world.

You who are living now-- The world can change in any way based on your actions in the present.

This is proof that possibilities are alive, and shows that your world is on the 'correct axis'.

Conversely speaking, in a world where the future no longer changes no matter what you choose, parallel worlds do not exist.

They’re just dead ends. Lonely, isolated worlds where you can't even go back to the past.

This is an unavoidable, structurally necessary evil.

A world where choices not chosen by people continued cannot possibly maintain the same form as the 'world' you're in.

There might be worlds that perished due to continued fatal choices. There might be worlds where civilization levels rose too high due to continued innovation.

Once it becomes like that, we no longer count it as 'the same world as others'. If the foundation of the world has shifted, it should be called a different,seperate world.

Why is that a isolated world? You might ask, 'Shouldn't there be parallel possibilities no matter what future it becomes?'

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The energy needed to increase the outcomes of unneeded worlds does not exist in this dimension.

In this way, the ever-increasing parallel worlds will eventually exceed the capacity of the dimension.

Parallel worlds are necessary, but too many of them is also problematic.

It's a rough estimate, but at Earth's civilization level, this solar system would burst in about a hundred years.

But in fact, we survive and reproduce. The solar system, without being mitigated by the amount of information, can exist in its current form for another hundred million years.

The logic is simple. After progressing to a certain extent, the world takes statistics of possibilities, and allows only the outcomes that don't strain 'the operation of the next era' to continue.

The parallel worlds of worlds deemed unnecessary-- Their futures are closed off.

To be specific, the World takes a tally every hundred years or so to say 'up to here', and allows possibilities only for worlds that are 'guaranteed to continue for at least another hundred years'.

Following the law of conservation of mass, this could be called the law of conservation of events.

That's why there's no civilization gap in the numerous existing parallel worlds. Imagine a large tree. Only the central part, which is the trunk, can continue to grow. The branches and leaves that have grown vigorously will eventually reach their limit and collapse without a future.

Do you understand now?

In worlds that have undergone excessive collapse or excessive evolution, the possibility of parallel worlds does not exist. Such different worlds are merely dead-end routes where the outcome has already been decided.

This timing of pruning. The point of grasping unnecessary possibilities, and making history, which tends to fluctuate through observation, immutable.

The mages of the old world called this the event fixation zone-- the foundation of human order."

So, it can be said definitely, that anything affected by the pruning system is 4D at max, and thus, could not affect Avalon. The pruning system even affects the Moon Cell, as well, as it is affected by timeline changes.

 

[Wankbreaker]

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Not again dude, give it a rest
At least it isn't staff locked this time.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Not again dude, give it a rest
At least it isn't staff locked this time.

I wanted to give the king Tdjwo a chance.

no excuses this time

 

[LamentSatanael]

ORT is affected by the pruning system

 

[Violatas]

Well ok, to be blunt I personally think Avalon literally being some "6D spatial dimension" is kinda wack
Agree with removal albeit for somewhat different reasons

 

[Wankbreaker]

Well ok, to be blunt I personally think Avalon literally being some "6D spatial dimension" is kinda wack
Agree with removal albeit for somewhat different reasons

I do too but lack of evidence, gotta attack from another angle

 

[Violatas]

Scaling to Avalon itself is funny given the whole point is literally nothing is supposed to be able to affect it, not even True Magic or something like EA (Eyes of Death theoretically can but that's a separate debate so...)

Having given this a reread since I literally just woke up with my initial comment, yeah I agree with the reasoning posted. Avalon itself is notably like, special compared to the other planes making up Gaia.

Probs my last comment on this thread

 

[Wankbreaker]

Scaling to Avalon itself is funny given the whole point is literally nothing is supposed to be able to affect it, not even True Magic or something like EA (Eyes of Death theoretically can but that's a separate debate so...)

Back Alley Satsuki proves that the MEODP can’t exactly do that either. Ryougi is able to hit Ries’s lines of death through her shield-barrier thing. But when Ryougi tries hitting Artoria’s lines of death, it doesn’t work. The blurb before even says “let’s get a heroine who is resistant to death lines, like Arcueid..”

It also has no fated end, as Merlin cannot become a heroic spirit due to there being no way in which he dies.
but yea, not important here

Having given this a reread since I literally just woke up with my initial comment, yeah I agree with the reasoning posted. Avalon itself is notably like, special compared to the other planes making up Gaia.

Probs my last comment on this thread

 

[TheSilverKing14]

Funny thing about Avalon is that it may not even be capable of blocking the fifith magic as the translation for the scan from the wiki says true magic generally not all five magics which us a fandom error and thus, I agree with the removal but for seperate reasons.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Funny thing about Avalon is that it may not even be capable of blocking the fifith magic as the translation for the scan from the wiki says true magic generally not all five magics which us a fandom error and thus, I agree with the removal but for seperate reasons.

If you see the scan I sent, it says “not even the 5 magics/sorceries” (五つの魔法)

but yea, this obviously needs to go

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, the timeline system is 4D, meaning anything bound to it is also 4D, and is thus definitely not capable of destroying the inner sea.


He is describing the timelines in this scan. Each branching timeline follows the 4th dimension.

He is describing time as a direction, stating it as the 4th dimension. This isn't a contradiction for there being more dimensions. Furthermore, nothing in that text suggests time encompasses all other directions.

Avalon being untouched by time also doesn't contradict this. It would simply be a feature for Avalon in particular (would make it an acausal place).

Now, for things scaling to destroying Avalon or not, that's an entirely different matter.

That being said, I don't consider myself an expert on dimension bs, so:

@Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Planck69 @Elizhaa same old, same old

 

[Huesito88]

@Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Planck69 @Elizhaa same old, same old

Hey Lephyr can you make sure this thread doesn't get derailed?

 

[Wankbreaker]

He is describing time as a direction, stating it as the 4th dimension. This isn't a contradiction for there being more dimensions. Furthermore, nothing in that text suggests time encompasses all other directions.

I don’t get the point here? The whole point of the thread is that these higher dimensions do exist, they just are impossible to exist in the multiverse
/range of the pruning phenomenon.

If you’re 5+ D or whatever in a way that’s accepted superior by the wiki, a 4 dimensional phenomena should not be able to wipe you off of existence or affect you in anyway.

Also yes, the whole point is that this time dimension encompasses everything in the multiverse.

It is a realm that must be defined as existing for this world to be established,

Avalon being untouched by time also doesn't contradict this. It would simply be a feature for Avalon in particular (would make it an acausal place).

The throne of heroic spirits is also a higher dimensional space, and also untouched by time/the multiverse. This is basically a common feature at this point.

Now, for things scaling to destroying Avalon or not, that's an entirely different matter.

That being said, I don't consider myself an expert on dimension bs, so:

@Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Planck69 @Elizhaa same old, same old

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don’t get the point here? The whole point of the thread is that these higher dimensions do exist, they just are impossible to exist in the multiverse
/range of the pruning phenomenon.

If you’re 5+ D or whatever in a way that’s accepted superior by the wiki, a 4 dimensional phenomena should not be able to wipe you off of existence or affect you in anyway.

The Moon Cell being an 8D structure directly comes into conflict with this, as it is bound by timelines,with there being one in every extra world, rather than 1 in existence, like Avalon and the Throne.

This part can still be the case, is my point. Avalon and the throne having their own thing doesn't contradict this still being possible.

You are claiming something the actual text doesn't suggest, that everything is contained in just 4-D. What it's actually saying is that time in general is the 4-D, and the universe (which is what would contain the other dimensions) flows with it. That's just how time works in general. Affecting this would still net you 8-D power/range or whatev as far as I understand.

The throne of heroic spirits is also a higher dimensional space, and also untouched by time/the multiverse. This is basically a common feature at this point.

The fact that they specifically are singled out suggest they are the exception here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I wanted to give the king Tdjwo a chance.

no excuses this time

I can smell the sarcasm from here, you always take this antagonistic tone toward Natsu supporters. Let's not do that, yeah

 

[Wankbreaker]

This part can still be the case, is my point. Avalon and the throne having their own thing doesn't contradict this still being possible.

You are claiming something the actual text doesn't suggest, that everything is contained in just 4-D. What it's actually saying is that time in general is the 4-D, and the universe (which is what would contain the other dimensions) flows with it. That's just how time works in general. Affecting this would still net you 8-D power/range or whatev as far as I understand.

The 4th dimension is described as something that must be defined in order for things to exist, and that cannot be touched.
By going into it, one vanishes from reality.
It is again, noted as the source of all possibility. These possibilities cannot logically exceed the dimension in which they were made in, or the inner sea of the planet, no less.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The energy needed to increase the outcomes of unneeded worlds does not exist in this dimension.

In this way, the ever-increasing parallel worlds will eventually exceed the capacity of the dimension.

Parallel worlds are necessary, but too many of them is also problematic.

Following the law of conservation of mass, this could be called the law of conservation of events.

Arcueid’s event storage, which can store anything bound to the Earth’s texture (which everything in the parallel world system is bound by,as it is a system of the earth), is capped at 4 dimensions as well.

There really is very little evidence to suggest anything above 4 dimensions is bound by this system.

"It is the act of slipping into the cracks of this world, Sinking into the 'sea of time' where one completely vanishes from reality."

The fact that they specifically are singled out suggest they are the exception here.

They are the only known higher dimensional spaces beyond the 4th, that’s kinda how it works. Avalon, like I said in the OP, creates these parallel worlds in the first place, so nothing in that system can be superior to it.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Also, I’m pretty sure lower temporal dimensions cannot affect dimensions higher than them.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I can smell the sarcasm from here, you always take this antagonistic tone toward Natsu supporters. Let's not do that, yeah

I really do not. I was just refrencing the fact that Tdjwo taunted me over the last thread's rejection

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The 4th dimension is described as something that must be defined in order for things to exist, and that cannot be touched.
By going into it, one vanishes from reality.
It is again, noted as the source of all possibility. These possibilities cannot logically exceed the dimension in which they were made in, or the inner sea of the planet, no less.

Everything here makes sense when you consider time is the 4th dimension. Still doesn't contradict there being more.

Again, Avalon and the Throne being stated to be special in their relationship to the flow of time, it's them being special in relation to time.

What you proved is there can't be another time-axis in Nasu. There's a singular dimension of time.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Everything being bound by time doesn't really mean you can't have more spatial dimensions. Just that you can't have another temporal dimension

I consider that a blessing, I hate hypertimelines

 

[Wankbreaker]

Everything here makes sense when you consider time is the 4th dimension. Still doesn't contradict there being more.

like i said:

Also, I’m pretty sure lower temporal dimensions cannot affect dimensions higher than them.

Again, Avalon and the Throne being stated to be special in their relationship to the flow of time, it's them being special in relation to time.

Their relationship to time is noted to be because of superiority.

Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension.
They are an existence that transcend time.

Im pretty sure there's a scan that says true HS are too vast/large to summon.

What you proved is there can't be another time-axis in Nasu. There's a singular dimension of time.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Everything being bound by time doesn't really mean you can't have more spatial dimensions. Just that you can't have another temporal dimension

I consider that a blessing, I hate hypertimelines

Except its stated that the parallel world system would break and collapse if the capacity of the 4th dimension was exceeded/violated, as it violates "the law of conservation of events"

I think having a 8D space would break that really easily, lmao.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Also, we accept temporal dimensions on the wiki to have infinite snapshots of lower ones.... not higher ones, lol

We can't have 9D time and 4D time at the same time if there is only a singular temporal dimension. That isn't how this works

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, I’m pretty sure lower temporal dimensions cannot affect dimensions higher than them.

Only applies when there's more time dimensions. Time is not a superior dimension to, say, the third.

Since space here would contain the extra dimensions noted in Extra/CCC, this quote is fine. Doesn't contradict.

Regarding this:

Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension.
They are an existence that transcend time.

This would simply be BDE. Still isn't contradicting imo.

Except its stated that the parallel world system would break and collapse if the capacity of the 4th dimension was exceeded/violated, as it violates "the law of conservation of events"

I think having a 8D space would break that really easily, lmao.

That's only if you think of dimensions as planes of transcendence instead of directions, as the quote regarding time is talking about.

 

[Vietthai96]

Also, I’m pretty sure lower temporal dimensions cannot affect dimensions higher than them.

No, not really. time dimension is, while still count as physical direction which give you 1D at least on the site, is actually different from spatial because time just uncountable infinitely multiplying what its contain to give you +1D, based on how set theory and continuum hypothesis work, being bound by time dimension doesn't make you unable to have more than 3 spatial dimensions since temporal and spatial dimension are completely different from each other

I think having a 8D space would break that really easily, lmao

as i said above, you could have uncountable infinite amount of spatial dimensions and they can still being bound by a singular time dimension because time dimension is exactly what you said

the law of conservation of events

time is connection of uncountable infinite amount of events in a continuous "line"

Also, we accept temporal dimensions on the wiki to have infinite snapshots of lower ones.... not higher ones, lol

We can't have 9D time and 4D time at the same time if there is only a singular temporal dimension. That isn't how this works

as i have said, time isn't superior dimension compare to space, they are different in nature to even compare, there is a reason why infinite spatial dimensions = High 1-B while infinite timelines with each timeline is already its own time axis which in turn mean infinite time dimensions is only 2-A

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, we accept temporal dimensions on the wiki to have infinite snapshots of lower ones.... not higher ones, lol

We can't have 9D time and 4D time at the same time if there is only a singular temporal dimension. That isn't how this works

You seem to have the outdated point of view that being of more spatial dimensions makes you above (in a transcendent sense) any dimension "below" you.

There's not a time dimension for every 1-D through 3-D in our universe for example. Time overall is simply dictating the flow of things inside those 3-dimensions. Adding more spatial dimensions wouldn't change that, unless those "dimensions" were BDE in the first place.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Only applies when there's more time dimensions. Time is not a superior dimension to, say, the third.


Since space here would contain the extra dimensions noted in Extra/CCC, this quote is fine. Doesn't contradict.

The Throne of Heroes is a system of the planet, which is 6D, and is below the planet, as the planet was able to percieve something that his Heroic Spirit self could not. Implying that it is a dimension below the planet.

And so, he journeyed to the ravine.
He was after a mausoleum rumored to be deep in those mountains, the one which regulated
the divide between the underworld and the world of the living.
Most of his past was dissolved at the bottom of that nothing.
The Saint Graph data supposed to be recorded in the world for this Heroic Spirit scattered
apart along with his past.
It’s not possible to deceive the planet’s memory, but the world being capable of detecting
him didn’t make a difference when no one could perceive him.
No one—Naturally including his own Heroic Spirit self.

Also, the far side and core of the Moon Cell is explicitly made up of imaginary number space (which is 4D.) Hakuno even uses it in FGO to open up a hole to the mooncell's core



The Human Order Foundations… Those are timelocked stretches serving as the cornerstone of human history. Absolute records that can’t be influenced by revisions to the past and future. On the moon, the Human Order Foundations are called Quantum Timelocks. This Noble Phantasm takes the anchor that locks them in place and uses it offensively. An Event Weapon that employs Imaginary Space to open the Mooncell Automaton's window, and fires the energy used for record-locking on a target. Not even the best defensive barriers (including Anti-Purge Defense) can negate this. However, it can be evaded by leaving its effect range. A rare situation where dodging is better than invincibility.


BB's most powerful attack is C.C.C, and even it only manipulates 3D space, and the time axis.

０１ - C. C. C.カースド・カッティング・クレーター
ムーンセルを掌握したＢＢによる、世界を犯す攻撃。
霊子虚構陥穽とも。


ＢＢが獲得したＥＸスキル『百獣受胎ポトニア・テローン』を最大限に活用した、事象書き換えによるワールド・パージ。


大地を創造した地母神たちの母にあたる女神とは、即ち、万物を生み出した「根源」である。
この宝具はその情報を超精密立体プリンターとして出力し、使用者の望むままの世界で、いまある世界を握りつぶす対界宝具である。


ＢＢに侵食された空間は虚数空間となり、現実を蝕む呪いとなる。『Ｃ．Ｃ．Ｃ．』はその名の通り、現実をえぐり切り取る呪いの大穴なのだ。


その場にある物体を原子単位までばらばらにして再構成する他、運不運、偶然といった場の情報を書き換えて再出力する事もできる。
理論上の話になるが、重力場に干渉すれば時間軸を歪めて因果律を書き換える事も可能とされる。




01 - C.C.C. Cursed Cutting Crater An attack by BB, who has taken control of the Moon Cell, to violate the world. Also known as the Spiritron Imaginary Pitfall.

It's a World Purge through event rewriting, maximizing the use of BB's EX skill "Potnia Theron: Conception of All Animals".

The goddess who is the mother of the earth mother goddesses who created the land is, in other words, the "Origin" that gave birth to all things. This Noble Phantasm outputs that information as an ultra-precise 3 dimensional printer, crushing the current world into a world of the user's desire. It's an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.

The space invaded by BB becomes imaginary number space, turning into a curse that erodes reality. "C.C.C." is, as its name suggests, a cursed great hole that gouges and cuts out reality.

It can not only break down objects in the area into atomic units and reconstruct them, but also rewrite and re-output information about the field such as luck and chance. Theoretically speaking, it is said that by interfering with the gravitational field, it's possible to distort the time axis and rewrite causality.

Regarding this:

This would simply be BDE. Still isn't contradicting imo.

Except it is still described as being in "A dimension above this one".

That's only if you think of dimensions as planes of transcendence instead of directions, as the quote regarding time is talking about.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Can you summarise where 6-D Avalon even came from in the first place?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The Throne of Heroes is a system of the planet, which is 6D, and is below the planet, as the planet was able to percieve something that his Heroic Spirit self could not. Implying that it is a dimension below the planet.

And so, he journeyed to the ravine.
He was after a mausoleum rumored to be deep in those mountains, the one which regulated
the divide between the underworld and the world of the living.
Most of his past was dissolved at the bottom of that nothing.
The Saint Graph data supposed to be recorded in the world for this Heroic Spirit scattered
apart along with his past.
It’s not possible to deceive the planet’s memory, but the world being capable of detecting
him didn’t make a difference when no one could perceive him.
No one—Naturally including his own Heroic Spirit self.

This is dealing with abstract stuff, irrelevant to dimensional talks.

Also, the far side and core of the Moon Cell is explicitly made up of imaginary number space (which is 4D.) Hakuno even uses it in FGO to open up a hole to the mooncell's core



The Human Order Foundations… Those are timelocked stretches serving as the cornerstone of human history. Absolute records that can’t be influenced by revisions to the past and future. On the moon, the Human Order Foundations are called Quantum Timelocks. This Noble Phantasm takes the anchor that locks them in place and uses it offensively. An Event Weapon that employs Imaginary Space to open the Mooncell Automaton's window, and fires the energy used for record-locking on a target. Not even the best defensive barriers (including Anti-Purge Defense) can negate this. However, it can be evaded by leaving its effect range. A rare situation where dodging is better than invincibility.

Imaginary Number Space deals with possibilities, so it deals with time, since you have argued possibilities are governed by it. This isn't contradictory to what we know. This simply means the Mooncell is able to access "data" across time and "anchor them". That's irrelevant in regards to its size.

BB's most powerful attack is C.C.C, and even it only manipulates 3D space, and the time axis.

０１ - C. C. C.カースド・カッティング・クレーター
ムーンセルを掌握したＢＢによる、世界を犯す攻撃。
霊子虚構陥穽とも。


ＢＢが獲得したＥＸスキル『百獣受胎ポトニア・テローン』を最大限に活用した、事象書き換えによるワールド・パージ。


大地を創造した地母神たちの母にあたる女神とは、即ち、万物を生み出した「根源」である。
この宝具はその情報を超精密立体プリンターとして出力し、使用者の望むままの世界で、いまある世界を握りつぶす対界宝具である。


ＢＢに侵食された空間は虚数空間となり、現実を蝕む呪いとなる。『Ｃ．Ｃ．Ｃ．』はその名の通り、現実をえぐり切り取る呪いの大穴なのだ。


その場にある物体を原子単位までばらばらにして再構成する他、運不運、偶然といった場の情報を書き換えて再出力する事もできる。
理論上の話になるが、重力場に干渉すれば時間軸を歪めて因果律を書き換える事も可能とされる。




01 - C.C.C. Cursed Cutting Crater An attack by BB, who has taken control of the Moon Cell, to violate the world. Also known as the Spiritron Imaginary Pitfall.

It's a World Purge through event rewriting, maximizing the use of BB's EX skill "Potnia Theron: Conception of All Animals".

The goddess who is the mother of the earth mother goddesses who created the land is, in other words, the "Origin" that gave birth to all things. This Noble Phantasm outputs that information as an ultra-precise 3 dimensional printer, crushing the current world into a world of the user's desire. It's an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.

The space invaded by BB becomes imaginary number space, turning into a curse that erodes reality. "C.C.C." is, as its name suggests, a cursed great hole that gouges and cuts out reality.

It can not only break down objects in the area into atomic units and reconstruct them, but also rewrite and re-output information about the field such as luck and chance. Theoretically speaking, it is said that by interfering with the gravitational field, it's possible to distort the time axis and rewrite causality.

It's not saying that it manipulates 3 dimensions. It's saying that it acts as a 3-D printer, but to metaphysical things to "rewrite" the world (in other words, it's manipulating reality, rebuilding its blocks like a 3-D printer uses materials to build things). It's even able to rebuild abstract things like luck.

None here contradict there being 8 dimensions.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So yeah, from this point on, I will simply wait for the experts on dimensional things.

 

[Wankbreaker]

This is dealing with abstract stuff, irrelevant to dimensional talks.

The point is that there is a (5D?) and 6D realm that are both noted to be seperate from time/ the multiverse because of their superiority. At this point, there is really only a single conclusion.

Imaginary Number Space deals with possibilities, so it deals with time, since you have argued possibilities are governed by it. This isn't contradictory to what we know. This simply means the Mooncell is able to access "data" across time and "anchor them". That's irrelevant in regards to its size.

This isnt the point. The point is it is made of something that is explicitly 4D in scope. BB even uses INS to break through the moon cell core. Hakuno uses INS to access the core.

It's not saying that it manipulates 3 dimensions. It's saying that it acts as a 3-D printer, but to metaphysical things to "rewrite" the world (in other words, it's manipulating reality, rebuilding its blocks like a 3-D printer uses materials to build things). It's even able to rebuild abstract things like luck.

None here contradict there being 8 dimensions.

There is no metaphorical language used here.

It outputs and prints information. This information can be 3-dimensional in scope. "立体" quite literally means 3-dimensional object. This attack also works by manipulating INS, a 4D locale...

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

 

[Wankbreaker]

Can you summarise where 6-D Avalon even came from in the first place?

this singular line:

As a Noble Phantasm within the realm of Magic, it blocks all physical interference, trans-linear interference from parallel worlds, and cross-dimensional interference (up to the sixth dimension).

 

[Wankbreaker]

By the way, Avalon works by simply isolating artoria in this realm. This leads to the conclusion that its defense and disconnection from time is purely because of its nature as a sixth dimensional place

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It outputs and prints information. This information can be 3-dimensional in scope. "立体" quite literally means 3-dimensional object.

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

And this is the one for printer: プリンター

As in, a literal one.

You can find it right there in the description for BBs Ability. My interpretation was correct.

The fact you isolated 3-D alone and didn't include the fact that it actually does say printer is quite telling.

 

[GarrixianXD]

this singular line:

So was it stated explicitly to be sixth-dimensional or something?

 

[Wankbreaker]

And this is the one for printer: プリンター

As in, a literal one.

You can find it right there in the description for BBs Ability. My interpretation was correct.

This doesn't contradict my claim. A printer outputs computer data into something more tangible. Whatever form it comes in is irrelevant. Nasu could easily just be using a more broad definition, as this is essentially what it does.

Nasu doesn't call it "like" a 3D printer, he straight up calls it an ultra-precise 3D printer. And again, this effect is achieved by manipulation of imaginary numbers, which is again, 4 Dimensional, and nothing more.

 

[Wankbreaker]

So was it stated explicitly to be sixth-dimensional or something?

Besides this quote? No.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And this is the one for printer: プリンター

As in, a literal one.

You can find it right there in the description for BBs Ability. My interpretation was correct.

The fact you isolated 3-D alone and didn't include the fact that it actually does say printer is quite telling.

Case-n-point: Searching this in google: 立体プリンター

Gives me this outright

This doesn't contradict my claim. A printer outputs computer data into something more tangible. Whatever form it comes in is irrelevant. Nasu could easily just be using a more broad definition, as this is essentially what it does.

Nasu doesn't call it "like" a 3D printer, he straight up calls it an ultra-precise 3D printer. And again, this effect is achieved by manipulation of imaginary numbers, which is again, 4 Dimensional, and nothing more.

The entire phrase: 立体プリンターとして

"として"
Well then

 

[Wankbreaker]

Case-n-point: Searching this in google: 立体プリンター

Gives me this outright

Again, I don’t see how this helps your point.
This could easily be parsed as C.C.C being an extremely versatile printer….which is what it does.

The whole INS thing also limits the scope.

The entire phrase: 立体プリンターとして

"として"
Well then

I’m not sure which definition you think could be interpreted metaphorically.

as (i.e. in the role of); for (i.e. from the viewpoint of)