Auswahlen and Light of Lille

[KazuiK]

We have this discussion, like every 2 weeks, and it keeps getting denied again and again and it's getting tiring repeating the same points.

This Lille and Auswahlen stuff should become a discussion rule at this point considering how many times it's been brought up and denied.

1 - The OP has added more points in order to prove that the light is real, and the points addressed seems to make sense ..

2 - Two weeks? wtf, so I remember the last discussion of this was over 2 months lmaoo ..

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Point is, if something that is described to be light, act like light break just one of the rules of natural ligh then it just isn't light.

If what Matt says about auswhalen bending is true ( it's been a while since I read bleach), then Auswhalen isn't actual light no matter how many statements about it being light you get.

False, his argument comes from it bending once. It bent once and it never bent again, it was always straight aside from one time. That's an art inconsistency.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Point is, if something that is described to be light, act like light break just one of the rules of natural ligh then it just isn't light.
If what Matt says about auswhalen bending is true ( it's been a while since I read bleach), then Auswhalen isn't actual light no matter how many statements about it being light you get.

Auswhalen is shown to move in a straight line in every other scan but that one that Matt is talking about.

We are making the argument that the art is just inconsistent in that one panel and are using the other panels and the context of the manga as proof as such.

Matthew is maintaining his stance that since there is one depiction of the light not moving in a straight line, that all the other depictions of it doing as such are meaningless because it was shown to bend once.


It isn't about "muh there are light statements though". It's a debate about the consistency of the artwork.

 

[The_Causality]

Point is, if something that is described to be light, act like light break just one of the rules of natural ligh then it just isn't light.
If what Matt says about auswhalen bending is true ( it's been a while since I read bleach), then Auswhalen isn't actual light no matter how many statements about it being light you get.

You are wrong, the light is demonstrated to bend in a single panel when in dozen of other is demonstrated to being straight and being refractable.

 

[Konaguna]

A beam that is described as light and bends just once still isn't light.

This is the same reason dark souls speed was downgraded, Bleach isn't an exception.

Why would it be an inconsistency? It just shows that auswhalen is capable of bending and isn't actual light, not that bending is an inconsistency.

I disagree with auswhalen beig light as well Lille attacking with light attacks, since Nanaos zanapkuto was literally designed to reflect attack from a "deity" like him

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What is reflected is the X-Axis property his power. The one that pierces through everything including himself.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Again that's a false equivalence. Dark Souls was downgraded for various reasons from what I know. Sun Light Spears generate electricity, are solid and bend. The Mustache Man's Light has only bent once in all of the Manga. It's other showings have it traveling perfectly straight. As I said before, it's a inconsistency in the art.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Described as light, travels in straight lines for a dozen+ panels, acts like light in every instance except for one. But just one instance is enough to say its not light? I dunno about Dark Souls but if there is only a single instance of the light doing something different from normal light compared to literally every other time, then it should be looked at again.

Except Lille isn't a deity. He is a human/Quincy soul that entered into a second form of his Vollstandig.

 

[The_Causality]

A beam that is described as light and bends just once still isn't light.
This is the same reason dark souls speed was downgraded, Bleach isn't an exception.

Why would it be an inconsistency? It just shows that auswhalen is capable of bending and isn't actual light, not that bending is an inconsistency.

I disagree with auswhalen beig light as well Lille attacking with light attacks, since Nanaos zanapkuto was literally designed to reflect attack from a "deity" like him

Your reasoning isn't good, the light doesn't really bend to start (the panel isn't really clear), all of the other showing of this ability has been demonstrated as straight. It's called insconsistency when the only moment when this light "bend" is show in one panel when in dozen of other he don't, you can't said that this is not an inconsistency when the light is always straight but in one panel. + have the p^ropriety of light as OP show.

Dark soul isn't Lightspeed because of that, it's not the same reason

 

[USklaverei]

This trait between the lights has no deformation, when an author creates a curvature, deforms the trait for the idea of depth.

He did not generate the idea of a curve, whoever has drawn something knows this.

The trait does not have 0 points in the deformation beyond the point that the author lost a little in the line. Which has no problem, drawing straight lines is the most hellish thing.

 

[Konaguna]

There is no inconsistency with light. You have "light" bend, show mass, or any other opposing factor and it instantaneously isn't light. Feats>>>Statements

It's not an inconsistent in the art it merely shows that auswhalen can bend and theteofr isn't light. Besides, being described as light=\=Lightspeed

 

[Antvasima]

^^^^

Stop attacking Matt.

Attack his arguments - that's the point of debate.

I strongly second this. I think that Warren and Rin have made the strongest arguments here, but attacking Matthew is just going to derail the discussion into a toxic yelling match.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

There is no inconsistency with light. You have "light" bend, show mass, or any other opposing factor and it instantaneously isn't light. Feats>>>Statements

It's not an inconsistent in the art it merely shows that auswhalen can bend and theteofr isn't light. Besides, being described as light=\=Lightspeed

There is whenever the other showings showcase the beam of light as perfectly straight. What's inconsistent is the art, not the light itself. The only counter argument for it not being real light is that it bent slightly once out of all its showings. Whenever something happens that doesn't match up with the rest of its consistent showings it'd an inconsistent form of art.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Causality, you misunderstand. The single refraction example comes from another attack being stopped by a character with the power to reflect attacks. It's not a legitimate example.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

For the record, I don't think there's enough evidence to consider Lillies Light as real light.

 

[The_Causality]

There is no inconsistency with light. You have "light" bend, show mass, or any other opposing factor and it instantaneously isn't light. Feats>>>Statements

Yes there are Inconsistency, if in one panel light demonstrate to bend (it's not even bend when in the same scan you see straight light) but literally in dozen of other show to being straight, yes, this is consistency. About your Feat>Statemate, you know that this light has feat to being refractable and stuff.

It's not an inconsistent in the art it merely shows that auswhalen can bend and theteofr isn't light. Besides, being described as light=\=Lightspeed
The reason for this thread is even for "Light=Lightspeed" but the description of it being light alongside some light propriety light refraction and straight travel with other explanation it this in OP

From what i've understood, this seem fine but i also wait the counter arguments of other.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Kona

That same panel where it bends, when viewed from a different point of view, is completely straight, hence why we call it an inconsistency. All other showings of the ability are consistent with what it does and its interactions (or lack of) with other objects, barriers, surfaces etc. and matches that of light.

 

[Warren_Valion]

There is no inconsistency with light. You have "light" bend, show mass, or any other opposing factor and it instantaneously isn't light. Feats>>>Statements
It's not an inconsistent in the art it merely shows that auswhalen can bend and theteofr isn't light. Besides, being described as light=\=Lightspeed

No, you are wrong.

Using context from the manga and the other panels as proof it clearly demonstrates that it is the art that is inconsistent.

I already made an example of this in a previous post:

An inconsistency is and inconsistency - no matter what form.

And to say that art can't be inconsistent between panels is just wrong. And to call out someone saying that the art is inconsistent as them simply using their headcanon is also wrong.

To bring up another Dragon Ball example, in the twenty-second chapter of the manga "The End of the Tale".

Goku's size within his Oozaru form is wildly inconsistent.

In one panel, you can see Goku burst through the upper floors of the castle, in other panels he is as large as the entire castle itself, and in other panels, he is only about three times the size of Yamcha.

Does this mean that Goku is changing sizes randomly as an Oozaru? No, the artwork is just inconsistent.


The same logic can apply to Bleach, and the light of Auswählen - consistency is key and should be what is used.

 

[TataHakai]

""First of all, Auswahlen is described as POWER and was able to get in and out of the Hakifune cage that simply blocks the reishi."

This means absolutely nothing at all, not sure why it's even a point, it being a power doesn't prove that it's light speed anymore than if it was a hado or ability.

"The light then travels straight (in a scene it seems "deformed" ) until arriving at its destination, in the case the Quincies that were in Seireitei, soon after that, it rises again, in a straight line."

It doesn't "seem" deformed, It IS deformed, in fact it's shown more to be deformed than it is to be straight, we even see the "light" curve around Yhwach's hand, i'll show many examples of it warping and curving and distorting, not to mention proof that the beams don't move at the constant speed of C, there's MORE scenes of it curving and distorting and not acting like Light than there are.


Here we see the light bending and distorting as it comes dow


Here we not only see it deforming around the edges but notice how one beam is behind the other, indicating a non constant speed


Another example of distortion, we can see jagged edges of the light and it bending in a curve


Another example of non constant speed, the beams despite "moving at the speed of light" are nowhere near each other, unless we're gonna sit here and act like Yhwach is deliberately making some of them move slower than others


Yhwach literally bends the "light" around his hands in a ball shape, this is just ridiculous at this point

"As we see, he passes through Shokonmanku without interacting with him. But what is Shakonmaku?
• Seki-Seki emits 'radiation waves'

The Shakonmaku is basically that, radiation emitted by the Seki-Seki, ore from which are made the walls that surround Seireitei."

None of this is proof that it's natural light or behaves as such, Seki seki emitting radiation waves means nothing to what Auswahlen is because anything can interact with waves of radiation.

"Shakonmaku decomposes any matter that comes in contact , the only thing that does not offer resistance is the light, be it of natural means like sunlight, which passes through the Shakonmaku and illuminates the Seireitei.
Or light-based techniques (Auswahlen cof cof), which like sunlight, descended to the Sereitei without resistance from Shakonmaku "

Actually no, it decomposes Reishi, spiritual matter, all this means is that Auswahlen isn't made of Reishi which doesn't help your point at all, just because it isn't made of reishi doesn't mean it's made of light considering there are tons of other things in Bleach that it could be made of, and considering all attacks aren't made of reishi but rather the usage of a persons inner Reiryoku (Spiritual energy, not matter) it'd just be that Auswahlen is pure Reiryoku, not reishi, thus allowing it to travel through the barrier.

"This is because the photons do not interact with each other, they simply pass by each other."

This isn't always true, High energy photons can interact with each other, so again, this point doesn't really help you at all. This point is also moot considering

So Let's recap for Auswahlen, here are our light beam rules

• The beam refracts in a new material, such as a liquid or...

Never shown to do so

• The beam reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror

Again, never shown to do so

• The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources

No light speed statement

• It is stated to be made of photons or light itself, again by a reliable source

It's called Light but never called Photons

• It has its origin at a realistic source of light, such as a camera

Nope, it comes from a guy using magical attacks.

So it meets 0.5 of 5 criteria and consistently shows not to act like Light

• It is shown at different speeds in the same material

As i showed to the right, we have the same beam moving at different speeds

• It is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans

Not sure about this one

• They do not travel in straight lines (unless you can prove refraction/reflection, see above)

Already proved them curving and distorting, multiple times

So it meets 2 maybe 3 of the proof that it's not light speed Criteria

Thus Auswahlen is not light speed, nowhere near, the beams aren't even the same speed let alone Light speed, Yhwach controls it thus he controls how fast they move and where.

I'll write another debunk of the Lille thing i guess because that's just as poorly argued for as Auswahlen. But like i said, it should become a discussion rule at this point.

 

[Antvasima]

From my knowledge...

Pro-Light:

So in summary there is all of this proof, plus that it has been reflected from a shiny surface. I personally consider this as pretty conclusive.

 

[Damage3245]

Fully agreed with TataHakai here.

 

[TataHakai]

There isn't "one panel", every single panel but like 2 pages shows it distorting and curving, not only that but the beams aren't even moving at the exact same speed, we see multiple scenes with the beams in different positions despite being sent and called back at the same time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Tata joins the party.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I know that several of the people here don't like each other on a personal level, but can we please let go of that and focus on the matter of fact evidence?

 

[Warren_Valion]

@TataHakai

The beams aren't moving at different speeds, they are are in different positions spacially because they are targeting different people across the Sereitei, and thus the perspective looks like they are different.

 

[Konaguna]

Pretyy sure auswhalen got absorbed back into Yhwach already making even more bending feats.

Blaming the feat in the artsyle will avail you nothing. You're no tell Tite Kubo and can not speak for his own work. What can be seen isn't auswhalen returning to Yhwach given his position they inded bend

I honestly couldn't care whether there are 100 or a thousand straight traveling feats, I know we'll for a fav to how seriously light traveling feats are taken here and having it shown to be able to defy these rules Ian Moreno than enough to discards it.

 

[TataHakai]

The beams are in different positions in terms of how far they are from Yhwach, that's clear to see from the scans i've posted. Some are far more in front of the others.

We have denied verses light speed with a lot more evidence purely for the same things that we'd be ignoring here and that would be double standards to do so, there isn't a single statement in Bleach that tells us that Auswahlen is comparable to natural light nor does it act like such.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

They aren't moving at different speeds at all.

 

[Sekusu]

Tata makes sense this time

 

[The_Causality]

Retract muy agreement.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Pretyy sure auswhalen got absorbed back into Yhwach already making even more bending feats.
Blaming the feat in the artsyle will avail you nothing. You're no tell Tite Kubo and can not speak for his own work. What can be seen isn't auswhalen returning to Yhwach given his position ornk inded bends.

I honestly couldn't care whether there are 100 or a thousand straight traveling feats, I know we'll for a fav to how seriously light traveling feats are taken here and having it shown to be able to defy these rules Ian Moreno than enough to discards it.

Artwork can be inconsistent or poorly drawn.

Just because Tite Kubo draws professionally doesn't mean he is immune to making errors in an artwork. He is human, and to err is human.

Especially when, and correct me if I am wrong about this, he was extremely ill for most of the conclusion in this arc.

 

[TataHakai]

You do realise simply saying "uhh no" isn't a valid counter argument, as i've shown, multiple times, the beams have different positions to each other relative to Yhwach's position and their distance from it. Aka some are farther than Yhwach than others. We have a view from below them where even ones that are merely meters away from each other are also further in front and further behind. Unless you're going to say all these beams are in the exact same distance to Yhwach.

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

>Actually no, it decomposes Reishi, spiritual matter, all this means is that Auswahlen isn't made of Reishi which doesn't help your point at all, just because it isn't made of reishi doesn't mean it's made of light considering there are tons of other things in Bleach that it could be made of, and considering all attacks aren't made of reishi but rather the usage of a persons inner Reiryoku (Spiritual energy, not matter) it'd just be that Auswahlen is pure Reiryoku, not reishi, thus allowing it to travel through the barrier.

Actually most of the attacks are produced by the control of Reiryoku, their usage is actually Reiatsu - Take Getsuga Tensho for example, that is just Reiatsu condensed on Ichigo/Isshin's blade. Otherwise there are real attacks that are made of pure Reiryoku that would certanly be stopped by the barrier, like a Cero

 

[Konaguna]

I'm in agreement with Tatta Hakai, he's gathered even more counter feats that i couldn't scrape off the manga.

I disagree with the OP

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Tata

The example you showed with Bazz B isn't Auswhalen. Getting hit with the light of Auswhalen strips the flesh from your bones, seeing as Bazz survives and even heads up to the SKP later, he obviously isn't hit with the light. That is his powers leaving him.

All the beams flying towards the cage shouldn't be in line with each other as the Sternritter's whose powers got stolen were not equidistant from the cage. This is the case with the second pic as the beams are travelling to different locations that are not equidistant.

The "deformed" shape of the beam that is coming down on Robert in your first pic also isn't Auswhalen bending but the rays of light not being smooth along the edge. Light doesn't need nor have smooth edges when it gets emitted. It conforms to what ever it was emitted from and Yhwach released it from his body/hands.

Yhwach has already absorbed the energy of the Sternritter in the last scan and is in the process of distributing it to his Schutzstaffel.

Attempting to differentiate between Reiryoku and Reishi is pointless as back in the SS Arc, Kukaku demonstrates how reirykou interacts with Seki Seki by blasting a small chip off it with kido. It gets stopped by the radiation emitted, something that doesn't happen with Auswhalen.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Which Warren responded too, the beam went up and down at the same time as you can see in other scans of it in Seireitei.

Also all attacks in Bleach are composed of Reishi which is spiritual matter, Auswhalen isn't. If it were the cage of life would absorb it.

 

[TataHakai]

It not being made of reishi isn't conclusive proof that it 100% has to be Light or Photons was my point, it could be made of anything and we'd have no way to prove it because there's absolutely no statement in the series that says it's made of photons or light. Essentially saying it IS made of Photons/Light holds as much weight as saying it doesn't, thus the argument comes to a standstill and the point becomes moot.

 

[Sekusu]

It not being made of reishi isn't conclusive proof that it 100% has to be Light or Photons was my point, it could be made of anything and we'd have no way to prove it because there's absolutely no statement in the series that says it's made of photons or light. Essentially saying it IS made of Photons/Light holds as much weight as saying it doesn't, thus the argument comes to a standstill and the point becomes moot.

but it's light..it's about whether it's natural light or not

 

[Kyo_Takashi]

It not being made of reishi isn't conclusive proof that it 100% has to be Light or Photons was my point, it could be made of anything and we'd have no way to prove it because there's absolutely no statement in the series that says it's made of photons or light. Essentially saying it IS made of Photons/Light holds as much weight as saying it doesn't, thus the argument comes to a standstill and the point becomes moot.

There isn't plenty amount of things in Bleach that could be, because basically everything on the verse would react to the barrier. Reiryoku would be the purest thing to be compared and still wouldn't simply pass the barrier. All the other options are based or made of Reishi/Reiryoku

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Of course it isn't conclusive proof which is why you connect the dots. A beam of light that phases through a barrier that block matter unless it's really dense. This and sunlight are the only things that pass the barrier easily completely unhindered.