Attack Reflection Alternation

[Tllmbrg]

Attack Reflection

Attack Reflection is the explicit ability to turn one's opponent's attacks against them. This is a rather powerful ability, being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them. Some common limitations include only working on attacks of a...

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Currently, Attack Reflection is strictly defined as

Attack Reflection is the explicit ability to turn one's opponent's attacks against them.

This specifically locks the ability to returning back attacks to someone, rather than redirecting attacks.
Thus some well known pages with it do not qualify for it, such as Aang from Avatar, whose Lightning Redirection does not qualify since he used it only to redirect lightning away from himself ans Ozai.

My proposal is to change the page into Attack Redirection, and expend it to the ability to redirect enemy attacks onto a new target.

 

[Tllmbrg]

@Agnaa @Qawsedf234 @Crabwhale @Maverick_Zero_X @LephyrTheRevanchist @Mr. Bambu

 

[Deonment]

Another example
The Planeswalker has Attack Reflection for this reason

Attack Reflection (With the Spell Redirect The Planeswalker can reflect any targeting spell they wish.)

In addition to having a million other forms of redirection for the targets of spells (and also attacks/damage proper, both to either the person who was the source of it, or to someone else)

 

[Random-Helper323]

I have noticed that some pages have this ability essentially for blocking or deflecting attacks, which is weird.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Another example
The Planeswalker has Attack Reflection for this reason

In addition to having a million other forms of redirection for the targets of spells (and also attacks/damage proper, both to either the person who was the source of it, or to someone else)

Another example is Beyonder, who deflected Magneto's attack at some X-Men, and not right back at Magneto himself

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually i have a plan for a wide revision of Attack Reflection, expand the page to cover more types of reflection and redirection but as usual being busy and lazy at the same time lol

 

[Agnaa]

My proposal is to change the page into Attack Redirection, and expend it to the ability to redirect enemy attacks onto a new target.

Sounds nice on the surface.

But I am a little bit concerned about this broadening the scope of the ability too far. Being able to carefully push someone's punch so that they end up striking themselves seems quite impressive. But if we broaden that to just being redirected anywhere, then anything which moves any attack (telekinesis, wind manipulation, deflecting a sword with another sword) would qualify, making it seem a bit vapid.

Do you have a plan that could avoid this pitfall?

 

[Vietthai96]

Do you have a plan that could avoid this pitfall?

Make a note on those feats isn't a direct attack Redirection and thus shouldn't qualify?

Also abilities that overlapping on each other is usual sight. So i could write like this

Telekinesis (Justification)

• Attack Redirection (Can redirect attack with telekinesis)

 

[Agnaa]

Also abilities that overlapping on each other is usual sight. So i could write like this

Telekinesis (Justification)

• Attack Redirection (Can redirect attack with telekinesis)

This case feels a little bit worse, since we'd practically treat 99% of Telekinesis cases as being attack redirection (otherwise, we'd be assuming that the telekinesis only works on things that aren't "attacking" them, which would be quite arbitrary), and 90% of Telekinesis cases in practice would be attack redirection (if they've ever had any interaction with anything attacking anyone).

I don't think ability overlaps this extreme are typical.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Shouldn’t this be changed to a staff thread?

 

[Vietthai96]

This case feels a little bit worse, since we'd practically treat 99% of Telekinesis cases as being attack redirection (otherwise, we'd be assuming that the telekinesis only works on things that aren't "attacking" them, which would be quite arbitrary), and 90% of Telekinesis cases in practice would be attack redirection (if they've ever had any interaction with anything attacking anyone).

I don't think ability overlaps this extreme are typical.

So we goes with the note solution then. Or you have different ideas?

 

[Agnaa]

Shouldn’t this be changed to a staff thread?

Oh yeah, generic page changes have to be staff only.

I'll move it now.

So we goes with the note solution then.

tbh I'm a bit concerned about whether we could get a good enough note.

Or you have different ideas?

I do not.

 

[Vietthai96]

tbh I'm a bit concerned about whether we could get a good enough note.

The only current best way i could think of, probably there are no other way, since even with Attack Reflection, you can use other haxes or even simply combat skills to achieves similar effect

And note mostly just serve as soft standard, everything still need to be directly evaluated within CRTs, depends on the contexts of the verse

 

[Tllmbrg]

So the two options seem to be either:
A) No change, and start removing redirection that doesn't qualify for the current standard
B) Put a note that in cases where the redirection is not bouncing an attack back to sender then it requires a case by case inspection

 

[Qawsedf234]

If I had to change it, it would be the following:

Attack Reflection is the ability to turn one's opponent's attacks against them. This is a rather powerful ability, being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them. Some common limitations include only working on attacks of a certain type or power level, a lengthy preparation time, or a specific requirement for use.

This is not to be confused with one using another's powers against them, as that is simple trickery rather than an ability tailored to reflect incoming attacks.

Note: Attack Reflection as a an ability must refer to a power as reflecting or deflecting an attack as the primary means of the power. Reflection as a secondary power, such as using Telekinesis to redirect something, elemental control to redirect it's respect element, or using a barrier to deflect projectiles would not be considered as Attack Reflection, as those aspects are a secondary means of the actual power.

So Attack Reflect now is like our deconstruction page, where the primary power must be deconstruction and not a byproduct of another power.

Note: Natural side effects from powers, such as Energy Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, Vibration Manipulation, and other abilities that can produce enough energy output to destroy or dismantle objects, do not mean that characters automatically qualify for this ability, unless the abilities in question specifically and directly focus on deconstruction in itself, rather than as a consequence.

 

[KLOL506]

This case feels a little bit worse, since we'd practically treat 99% of Telekinesis cases as being attack redirection (otherwise, we'd be assuming that the telekinesis only works on things that aren't "attacking" them, which would be quite arbitrary), and 90% of Telekinesis cases in practice would be attack redirection (if they've ever had any interaction with anything attacking anyone).

I think a good argument would be that Telekinesis is active while typical Attack Redirection is passive. Also, the thing you just said, that Attack Redirection should be a primary power instead of being a side effect.

 

[Tllmbrg]

If I had to change it, it would be the following:

You forgot the change about it not being limited to just redirecting back to the attacker themselves.

 

[Agnaa]

tbh I kinda like the idea that Attack Redirection is something that has to be passive. Heck, in that case, I'd be fine with it being a side effect, or it being something that's toggled/channeled (such as a wind barrier that blows incoming attacks away).

 

[Armorchompy]

tbh I kinda like the idea that Attack Redirection is something that has to be passive. Heck, in that case, I'd be fine with it being a side effect, or it being something that's toggled/channeled (such as a wind barrier that blows incoming attacks away).

This is bad. A large amount - probably a majority - of reflection techniques in media are non-passive. This would lead a lot of very obviously reflect-y things to not qualify for the ability.

 

[Agnaa]

This is bad. A large amount - probably a majority - of reflection techniques in media are non-passive. This would lead a lot of very obviously reflect-y things to not qualify for the ability.

Couldn't that one be seen as toggled?

Like, I mostly want to avoid cases where the character needs to focus on a particular number of projectiles, and actively direct them away.

 

[Qawsedf234]

As a revised draft:

Attack Reflection is the ability to turn deflect or outright reflect attacks targeted towards the character. This is a rather powerful ability, being able to perform offense and defense simultaneously by effectively turning one's efforts against them. Some common limitations include only working on attacks of a certain type or power level, a lengthy preparation time, a specific requirement for use, it requiring active input from the user, or difficultly in aiming the deflected damage.

This is not to be confused with one using another's powers against them, as that is simple trickery rather than an ability tailored to reflect incoming attacks.

Note: Attack Reflection as a an ability must refer to a power in which its primarly aspect is reflecting or deflecting some form of hostile action. Reflection/deflection as a secondary power, such as using Telekinesis to redirect something, Elemental Control to redirect it's respective element, or using a barrier to deflect projectiles would not be considered as Attack Reflection, as those aspects are a secondary effects of a primary power.

 

[ByArrow]

I did get permission from @Agnaa

I think the “Attack Reflection” ability should remain as it is, and we should create a new ability page called “Attack Redirection”

This new ability should be given to characters who can redirect attacks directed at them physically or by using another ability to somewhere else.

So it will be more of a ability like Martial Arts, Acrobatics, or Pressure Points rather than a supernatural extra ability like “Attack Reflection.”

A few examples suitable for this new ability:

• Daredevil was able to deflect Nobu and Bullseye's projectiles
• Green Arrow was able to deflect a metahuman's and Damien's projectiles

 

[Agnaa]

I did get permission from @Agnaa

I think the “Attack Reflection” ability should remain as it is, and we should create a new ability page called “Attack Redirection”

This new ability should be given to characters who can redirect attacks directed at them physically or by using another ability to somewhere else.

So it will be more of a ability like Martial Arts, Acrobatics, or Pressure Points rather than a supernatural extra ability like “Attack Reflection.”

A few examples suitable for this new ability:

• Daredevil was able to deflect Nobu and Bullseye's projectiles
• Green Arrow was able to deflect a metahuman's and Damien's projectiles

I disagree.

I think that, whatever we do, it should just end up as one page.

The point of this ultimately isn't to separate non-supernatural things, it's to handle cases like King (Worm) and Gagamaru Chougasaki who supernaturally redirect attacks, but not necessarily to the person who launched them.

 

[ByArrow]

I'm not sure if the permission I received is for one time or three times, but since my comment was replied to, I will comment again.

I think that, whatever we do, it should just end up as one page.

Then, just as Resistance Negation is placed on the Power Nullification page or Marksmanship on the Weapon Mastery page, we can add Attack Redirection to the Attack Reflection page.

The point of this ultimately isn't to separate non-supernatural things,

I know. And as I mentioned in my previous message, the new ability I suggested also includes characters that can redirect attacks using other abilities. I didn't give examples of this because I only wrote down the first two examples that came to mind at the time.

it's to handle cases like King (Worm) and Gagamaru Chougasaki who supernaturally redirect attacks, but not necessarily to the person who launched them.

And to handle cases like these, my suggestion is to create a new ability called “Attack Redirection.”

 

[Agnaa]

I'm not sure if the permission I received is for one time or three times, but since my comment was replied to, I will comment again.

Let's just say it was for two.

I know.

And to handle cases like these, my suggestion is to create a new ability called “Attack Redirection.”

But the suggestion you made said:

So it will be more of a ability like Martial Arts, Acrobatics, or Pressure Points rather than a supernatural extra ability like “Attack Reflection.”

Strongly indicating that it shouldn't cover supernatural sources.

 

[ByArrow]

I did get permission from @Agnaa

Let's just say it was for two.

But the suggestion you made said:

Strongly indicating that it shouldn't cover supernatural sources.

This is just a misunderstanding. I could have explained it better.

What I meant in the part you quoted was that, since the characters do this by using an ability they already possess, it is more like a skill-based ability rather than an additional supernatural ability.

Also, in my message, I said that doing this using another abilities would also count as this ability.

This new ability should be given to characters who can redirect attacks directed at them physically or by using another ability to somewhere else.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't fully get the point, then.

I'd stick with my other preferred resolutions, posited earlier.

 

[Armorchompy]

Couldn't that one be seen as toggled?

Then you get an even dumber situation where Fox's counts but Falco's doesn't because it's exclusively used as a projectile.

Like, I mostly want to avoid cases where the character needs to focus on a particular number of projectiles, and actively direct them away.

Yeah and I disagree with that. It's an extremely common and noteworthy ability to be able to bat back attacks. No other power page covers even just its more common permutations (NPI + Superhuman Precision still don't include the ability to actually negate and redirect the attack). I don't see a valid rationale to remove it.

I did get permission from @Agnaa

I think the “Attack Reflection” ability should remain as it is, and we should create a new ability page called “Attack Redirection”

This new ability should be given to characters who can redirect attacks directed at them physically or by using another ability to somewhere else.

So it will be more of a ability like Martial Arts, Acrobatics, or Pressure Points rather than a supernatural extra ability like “Attack Reflection.”

A few examples suitable for this new ability:

• Daredevil was able to deflect Nobu and Bullseye's projectiles
• Green Arrow was able to deflect a metahuman's and Damien's projectiles

I disagree with the creation of a second page that basically just covers a slightly different version of the existing ability (or rather the current version of the ability getting split into two slightly different ones).

 

[Agnaa]

Then you get an even dumber situation where Fox's counts but Falco's doesn't because it's exclusively used as a projectile.

Yeah and I disagree with that. It's an extremely common and noteworthy ability to be able to bat back attacks. No other power page covers even just its more common permutations (NPI + Superhuman Precision still don't include the ability to actually negate and redirect the attack). I don't see a valid rationale to remove it.

It being so common makes me think it's not noteworthy.

As said above, using a sword to deflect another sword would qualify, in the loosest sense. We have to pick some angle to restrict it, or anyone that interacts with attacks in a way other than making them disappear or tanking them, would qualify.

 

[Armorchompy]

It's not any more common than "superhuman precision" or "pressure points". Either way you're extremely wrong about the noteworthiness of AR, intended as an attack or defensive technique (skill-based or supernatural). It remains a very unique and distinct combat ability that cannot be properly indexed with your suggested revisions. The fact that if you can be boneheaded about the exact limits doesn't change that.

I also think that as things are difficulty in delineating the ability doesn't really exist to any noteworthy degree (certainly not any more than pressure points - an ability I've seen applied to "going for vital organs in a fight", "doing a basic wrist lock" and "kicking someone in the nuts"). If something can be used to purposefully reflect an attack at a target to deal them harm, then it's AR. However if your issue is with Tllmbrg's proposed revision then I agree it'd be deleterious, "deflecting attacks" is much more vague and does indeed basically count for just about anything.

 

[Qawsedf234]

In my view, Attack Reflection being passive is to strict of a requirement. I still think the power needs to be primarily based on reflection or deflection, but whether it is active or passive is irrelevant to that point. Both Captain America's shield and Daemon's powers are attack reflection, one being active while the other is passive, is ultimately irrelevant.

 

[ByArrow]

I did get permission from @Agnaa

I don't fully get the point, then.

That part was just my comment about the ability. So you can ignore this part.

What I'm basically suggesting is that if there's an attack coming at you and you redirect it away from yourself to elsewhere either physically or by using another ability you possess, you gain this new ability.

I'd stick with my other preferred resolutions, posited earlier.

Okay

I disagree with the creation of a second page that basically just covers a slightly different version of the existing ability (or rather the current version of the ability getting split into two slightly different ones).

Even if the two ability differ only slightly, I believe the ability I suggested is common enough in fiction to deserve its own section.

As said above, using a sword to deflect another sword would qualify, in the loosest sense. We have to pick some angle to restrict it, or anyone that interacts with attacks in a way other than making them disappear or tanking them, would qualify.

If we do what I suggest, things like redirecting one sword with another sword can be classified under the ability I suggested, “Attack Redirection.”

For example, this does not count as Attack Reflection under our current definition and under the revisions suggested here because the character is using another ability he possess. And I agree with this because it's not reflection, it's redirection.

And the new ability I'm suggesting is for characters who, like Black Lightning, don't reflect the attack but redirect it using another ability.

And I believe this will help us index better.

 

[Agnaa]

(certainly not any more than pressure points - an ability I've seen applied to "going for vital organs in a fight", "doing a basic wrist lock" and "kicking someone in the nuts").

I think that is ridiculous, and should not be indexed as pressure points.

If something can be used to purposefully reflect an attack at a target to deal them harm, then it's AR. However if your issue is with Tllmbrg's proposed revision then I agree it'd be deleterious, "deflecting attacks" is much more vague and does indeed basically count for just about anything.

Not sure if this means you're against any change to the standards at all, or not.

Since I do think something needs to change, to cover the sorts of cases I mentioned earlier:

The point of this ultimately isn't to separate non-supernatural things, it's to handle cases like King (Worm) and Gagamaru Chougasaki who supernaturally redirect attacks, but not necessarily to the person who launched them.

But I don't like Tllmbrg and Vietthai's suggestions for it.

KLOL and my idea (passive/toggled) > Qawsedf's idea (modest rewrite and note) > Status Quo > Tllmbrg/Vietthai's idea (just broadening) > ByArrow's idea (broaden and split)

 

[Armorchompy]

I think that is ridiculous, and should not be indexed as pressure points.

Duh

Not sure if this means you're against any change to the standards at all, or not.

I'm sure some screws could be tightened but things are basically okay as they are.

Since I do think something needs to change, to cover the sorts of cases I mentioned earlier:

I think if it can still be targeted (or is automatically targeted at someone) or is otherwise reflecting harm with intent to dish it out to someone like in those cases it should count as AR. If it's just idly ricocheting off and just happens to be dangerous then no.

KLOL and my idea (passive/toggled) > Qawsedf's idea (modest rewrite and note) > Status Quo > Tllmbrg/Vietthai's idea (just broadening) > ByArrow's idea (broaden and split)

Qawsedf's rewrite seems fine to me, although I'd make a tiny change in that primary/secondary is kind of weird to interpret. An energy shield with the property to actively reflect objects back at foes should by all means have AR even though you could argue the AR is secondary to the forcefield creation.

 

[Agnaa]

I think if it can still be targeted (or is automatically targeted at someone) or is otherwise reflecting harm with intent to dish it out to someone like in those cases it should count as AR. If it's just idly ricocheting off and just happens to be dangerous then no.

Yeah, I honestly like that idea more than any of the other ideas brought up so far.

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait, my idea was just making a note?

Anyway, if you talking about my expasion idea, it is because from what i see from AR, it seems narrow down to only reflecting attack, so i want to expand it to cover other things like reflect abilities (hax), objects, etc.....

 

[Qawsedf234]

An energy shield with the property to actively reflect objects back at foes should by all means have AR even though you could argue the AR is secondary to the forcefield creation

My point is that making a generic shield is just a force field which doesn't have deflection as a primary power, while Fox's reflector actively bounces things back. The former, even if it did deflect something, would not count as Attack Refleciton, as its a byproduct of the barrier. Fox's Reflector, however, has a major ability to reflect attacks.

 

[Vietthai96]

My point is that making a generic shield is just a force field which doesn't have deflection as a primary power, while Fox's reflector actively bounces things back. The former, even if it did deflect something, would not count as Attack Refleciton, as its a byproduct of the barrier. Fox's Reflector, however, has a major ability to reflect attacks.

This should be case-by-case, simply having a barrier, shield that bounces things back which is the byproduct of physics shouldn't count, but barriers that actively have deflecting power imbued in them should have the ability

 

[Armorchompy]

My point is that making a generic shield is just a force field which doesn't have deflection as a primary power, while Fox's reflector actively bounces things back. The former, even if it did deflect something, would not count as Attack Refleciton, as its a byproduct of the barrier. Fox's Reflector, however, has a major ability to reflect attacks.

But my issue is that "primary" isn't the best term to clarify what you mean. To make another Smash Bros example Ness' baseball bat smash attack is primarily used as an attack but has the ability to bat projectiles back too. It's not really the "primary" purpose of the attack (that's just doing damage/knockback), moreso a neat easter egg, but it should still count as AR imo.

 

[KLOL506]

In my view, Attack Reflection being passive is to strict of a requirement. I still think the power needs to be primarily based on reflection or deflection, but whether it is active or passive is irrelevant to that point. Both Captain America's shield and Daemon's powers are attack reflection, one being active while the other is passive, is ultimately irrelevant.

For the record, I did not suggest that we make it a requirement. I only mentioned it as a general difference to imply the item/magic doing the work instead of the user itself.