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In the guide book for dmc 1 it outright said that the human world is a universe
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At Least Universal DMC and more.....
- Thread starter Toshiohex
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MOTIVATION!
Thanks uwu
Thanks uwu
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The thread should be renamed into "The Respectful and Civil Thread" because of how respectful and civil everyone is here.
Regardless, I'm not too big on DMC, but the arguements look compelling. Though I'm very iffy on WoG.
Regardless, I'm not too big on DMC, but the arguements look compelling. Though I'm very iffy on WoG.
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Seeing how good OP is wanna ask what verse he supporting aside DMC.
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You know what? This is the most respectful thread I've see in here (good on you op)
That said I'm neutral on the arguments above
That said I'm neutral on the arguments above
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Honestly I agree with the upgrades. I spoke with him before about feats over Discord, and he had some pretty good stuff
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Also Toshi do you intend on covering speed feats in the future? I have some stuff we can discuss over and use for that as well.
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This is something I'd like to have more discussion, actually.AogiriKira said:
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Wow what a nice thread on a controversial topic I'm neutral here but it seems good but I'm sure Obi-Wan would agree that this is civilized
Obi-Wan:So uncivilized
Dang
Obi-Wan:So uncivilized
Dang
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I'd be willing to discuss over discord if you want, so we don't clog this up with replies about speed lolCalaca Vs said:
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Hi Tipper17,
There are no recent universal feats from Urizen because (And this is a little correction to a mistake I made explaining Urizen) Urizen never received the Fruit's power until near the end of the game. The fruit is the power used for demons to become rulers of the underworld (just like mundus, so they should be comparable. Even Trish states that mundus tool the same fruit).
So yes, he should definitely be universal now, but why no feats? It's because after facing Dante, Urizen lost, fused with V To become Vergil, and still with all that power, he stood on top of the tree, waiting to face Dante one on one to settle a old score. That being said, he wouldn't be interested or he just simply didn't have the chance to demonstrate anything universal.
There are no recent universal feats from Urizen because (And this is a little correction to a mistake I made explaining Urizen) Urizen never received the Fruit's power until near the end of the game. The fruit is the power used for demons to become rulers of the underworld (just like mundus, so they should be comparable. Even Trish states that mundus tool the same fruit).
So yes, he should definitely be universal now, but why no feats? It's because after facing Dante, Urizen lost, fused with V To become Vergil, and still with all that power, he stood on top of the tree, waiting to face Dante one on one to settle a old score. That being said, he wouldn't be interested or he just simply didn't have the chance to demonstrate anything universal.
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Mind hopping onto discord then?Toshiohex said:
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Hey! Just joining this discussion now, it's taken me a bit too long despite how involved I usually am with the DMC Universe. I actually have to say that I fully agree with most of what is said here (that is, most... there are a few minor points that are slightly shaky but otherwise this is extremely well done). I also have a few other things to add on to this as further evidence.
One question that is always asked revolving around Kamiya's WoG argument is why he would have been honest this one, single time despite trolling other people so many other times. My answer to that, which I have mentioned on occasion, is that his statement that was used for Universal DMC was not explicitly a strength-measuring statement. He's expressed before that he hates people who make Vs-Matches before, and that's assumed to be the reason why he's a troll towards them. However, not many people assume feats of creation to equal feats of destruction. I certainly didn't before entering this wiki. I'm not arguing against that either, it's perfectly reasonable, I'm just making it clear that not many people outside the wiki think that way. To Kamiya, asking him what exactly it was that Mundus created wouldn't have seemed like a strength-measuring feat, it would have seemed like just another reasonable question. It is also often asked why he wrote such a short phrase to answer it and why it is vague, but honestly there is very little vague about it beyond how short his response was and the fact that his response was short is to be expected. He's not a native English speaker, he doesn't like writing in English, he very frequently has shown to write in only sentence fragments and with very little grammar, and he's very informal. Overall, despite how controversial the idea has always been, I 100% support Kamiya's WoG in this case being reliable.
Also, I fully agree that it is not an outlier. I'm not going to go too into detail why (since I've already made this single post way too long) but not only are there very few God Tier feats in the franchise, but many of them are done under debilitating conditions (such as Mundus, who destroyed Mallet Island while practically already dead and was defeated by Base Dante) and many of them are also extremely casual (such as the Beastheads shaking the world/island/whatever people have decided on at this point, which regardless happened purely due to the Beastheads presence). To say that a feat is an outlier, we need to have an idea of the characters limits from their feats and be able to say that the feat in question is far beyond their limits to the point that it doesn't make sense. That's the problem; we don't see the limits of God Tiers through anything except for scaling from other God Tiers (usually Sparda or Dante) and as such it should honestly be expected that their limits are far beyond this.
Hoo, I'm going off on a tangent here. My apologies, I've been preparing a 4-A DMC CRT for a while now (I'm sure many of you have already heard about it) so I'm just listing a lot I have been able to find along the way. I also have a more specific speed feat to mention, but I'll leave that for later. My point is, I fully, 100% agree with this CRT. It brings up good points that not even I considered and all of the arguments so far have been perfectly reasonable. Consider me a supporter.
One question that is always asked revolving around Kamiya's WoG argument is why he would have been honest this one, single time despite trolling other people so many other times. My answer to that, which I have mentioned on occasion, is that his statement that was used for Universal DMC was not explicitly a strength-measuring statement. He's expressed before that he hates people who make Vs-Matches before, and that's assumed to be the reason why he's a troll towards them. However, not many people assume feats of creation to equal feats of destruction. I certainly didn't before entering this wiki. I'm not arguing against that either, it's perfectly reasonable, I'm just making it clear that not many people outside the wiki think that way. To Kamiya, asking him what exactly it was that Mundus created wouldn't have seemed like a strength-measuring feat, it would have seemed like just another reasonable question. It is also often asked why he wrote such a short phrase to answer it and why it is vague, but honestly there is very little vague about it beyond how short his response was and the fact that his response was short is to be expected. He's not a native English speaker, he doesn't like writing in English, he very frequently has shown to write in only sentence fragments and with very little grammar, and he's very informal. Overall, despite how controversial the idea has always been, I 100% support Kamiya's WoG in this case being reliable.
Also, I fully agree that it is not an outlier. I'm not going to go too into detail why (since I've already made this single post way too long) but not only are there very few God Tier feats in the franchise, but many of them are done under debilitating conditions (such as Mundus, who destroyed Mallet Island while practically already dead and was defeated by Base Dante) and many of them are also extremely casual (such as the Beastheads shaking the world/island/whatever people have decided on at this point, which regardless happened purely due to the Beastheads presence). To say that a feat is an outlier, we need to have an idea of the characters limits from their feats and be able to say that the feat in question is far beyond their limits to the point that it doesn't make sense. That's the problem; we don't see the limits of God Tiers through anything except for scaling from other God Tiers (usually Sparda or Dante) and as such it should honestly be expected that their limits are far beyond this.
Hoo, I'm going off on a tangent here. My apologies, I've been preparing a 4-A DMC CRT for a while now (I'm sure many of you have already heard about it) so I'm just listing a lot I have been able to find along the way. I also have a more specific speed feat to mention, but I'll leave that for later. My point is, I fully, 100% agree with this CRT. It brings up good points that not even I considered and all of the arguments so far have been perfectly reasonable. Consider me a supporter.
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I'm neutral for now but I trust DarkGrath's judgement, will wait to see how the thread will progress
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Hearing that my judgement is trustworthy is probably one of the nicest things I've heard on here! I'll continue to remain active on this thread to defend the main arguments. Does anybody else have opinions/rebuttals on the topic?Dienomite22 said:
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I believe Universal DMC is legitimate without Kamiya's opinion. It's stated in the DMC3 manga, that demon names are truth's, and literal meanings to what they are. Mundus' name in canon means "Imaginative Universe" and "Vile world", so this could definitely be used to help this argument.
Universal Mundus is not an outlier. When he fights Mundus, he had achieved a new level of power with Sparda, so to say it's an outlier for that reason is unfair. Secondly, that's one of the only times Dante has ever gotten actually serious in a fight, most of the time he's completely casual.
He even came back to fight a much stronger Mundus in the DMC2 novel, and completely shit on him, so we know for a fact Dante has grown much more powerful, and often holds back.
Universal Mundus is not an outlier. When he fights Mundus, he had achieved a new level of power with Sparda, so to say it's an outlier for that reason is unfair. Secondly, that's one of the only times Dante has ever gotten actually serious in a fight, most of the time he's completely casual.
He even came back to fight a much stronger Mundus in the DMC2 novel, and completely shit on him, so we know for a fact Dante has grown much more powerful, and often holds back.
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While do do completely agree with you, since the name argument has been brought up so much I think I have more to add onto it. So, the DMC3 Manga came wayyy after the DMC1 Guide Book where Mundus' name was first mentioned as meaning universe. In the guide book, it's suggested that his name was meant to be allegorical (which is evidence against this idea, but I'll get to that) and in the DMC3 Manga it's stated that, to paraphrase, a demon's name is what defines their power. I believe the DMC3 Manga can be used as evidence instead of the DMC1 Guide Book here, because: 1: The DMC1 Guide Book was written well before the DMC3 Manga, so the Manga is likely more reliable, recent knowledge 2: The DMC1 Guide Book was written by people who no longer work on the DMC series, so they shouldn't have direction on these matters anymore if their word is contradicted Note that I am not calling the Guide Book unreliable. I'm just saying that later information that contradicts it should be considered far more reliable. Also, the idea of names being something "physical" (to oversimplify) that affects a demon is further shown in DMC5. When Vergil splits himself into two, Urizen and V, both are using aliases. Urizen himself even explicitly states that he has no name, and this could at least partially be an explanation as to how he is so powerful as a demon if his name (and therefore his power) is undefined.AogiriKira said:
So yes, despite all the debate surrounding it, I still agree that Mundus' name can be used as evidence to support 3-A. I just think that we need to put more evidence to the table. Thoughts?
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I believe the DMC2 novel even further expanded on Mundus' name meaning, as he was a literal voidDarkGrath said:
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That was a parallel universe Mundus, he was an actual void.
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Stop quoting such large text please.
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Yes, Ogbunabali is correct. Void Mundus is different from the real Mundus. I've been curious about having a seperate key for Void Mundus on his page, but all we really know from what we see is that Void Mundus is more powerful than Mundus and that therefore DMC2 Dante (and by proxy, his later depictions) are far beyond Mundus and Sparda. We can't really apply anything from Void Mundus to Mundus, but the fact that his name does have "Void" in it, mixed with the fact that again, his name means Universe that means his name is literally "Void Universe". Again, not a feat that can be applied to Mundus without a seperate key, but that could be considered further evidence to suggest the whole "names = definition of power" idea beyond what we've seen.Ogbunabali said:
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I heard that the timeline has been retconned and the 4th game comes chronologically after the 2nd.
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Yeah it was, and I actually think it makes more sense from a story wise. Dante through the Anime, the second novel, and specially Devil May Cry 2 is notably more serious than Dante from Devil May Cry 1, 3, 4 or 5. And it makes sense, he's in a period of his life where he just recently dealt with the death of his brother and hasn't fully moved past Sparda's legacy
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Yeah it better explains why Dante is not very talkative and almost seems depressed. It'd be kind of weird for him to be happy in 4, suddenly sad in 2, than happy again in 5.
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So it's canon, thanks.
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It's possible I guess
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Wait, I'm knowledgeable on this?Dragonmasterxyz said:
And yeah, in regards to the canon time-line (ignoring novels and most comics cuz I'm not totally understanding all of it):
DMC3 Comic -> DMC3 -> DMC1 -> Anime -> DMC Vol. 2 Novel -> DMC2 -> DMC4 novels and game -> DMC5 novel -> DMC5
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Your timeline is for the most part correct, just missing DMC Vol.1 novel before DMC3 manga and DMC CD dramas after the anime or 2
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Anyways, just looking at the OP (I'm not gonna discuss speed, because I haven't a clue):
(top) 1) I don't have anything to say on this really, since it just discusses the size of both universes. But in regards to Kamiya's statement, his word is very shaky at best merely because of the time-frame the question was answered, the one-word response, the fact that he was clearly annoyed at that point, and possibly other reasons, especially since it was made on a twitter response and not some guide-book tier source. The "WoG" could be changed on the fly.
(Looking at the last 6 bullet points)
1) Mundus "making a universe" could also be argued as moving himself and Dante to the Demon World, as we see he is capable of utilizing a portal just before fighting Dante just before being sealed away.
2) Actually (correct me if i'm wrong, anyone... and ONLY if i'm wrong xD), the only "universe" level feat that could be argued is Mundus' feat in DMC1 (Which I have my doubts on), and I definitely don't know any others, even after several arguments in other threads which have been debunked (namely the supposed feat in the DMC Vol.2 Novel).
3) This could very well be chalked up to Mundus and other kings wanting to merge the Demon World and Human world, which has been the main threat for most of the games and media, not literally affect the universes directly.
4) ^ That, I think?
5) I don't know about this. Again, Mundus could have simply teleported himself (or make a dimension) and Dante to the Demon World or literally anywhere to fight, and upon his defeat, Dante was simply sent back to the room with Trish. Again, I don't think we should all put our trust on a twitter statement. It would be best if Kamiya made it official instead of responding to a twitter question. Such things could be changed on the fly.
6) Again, I don't know anything regarding this, if it is at all factual.
(top) 1) I don't have anything to say on this really, since it just discusses the size of both universes. But in regards to Kamiya's statement, his word is very shaky at best merely because of the time-frame the question was answered, the one-word response, the fact that he was clearly annoyed at that point, and possibly other reasons, especially since it was made on a twitter response and not some guide-book tier source. The "WoG" could be changed on the fly.
(Looking at the last 6 bullet points)
1) Mundus "making a universe" could also be argued as moving himself and Dante to the Demon World, as we see he is capable of utilizing a portal just before fighting Dante just before being sealed away.
2) Actually (correct me if i'm wrong, anyone... and ONLY if i'm wrong xD), the only "universe" level feat that could be argued is Mundus' feat in DMC1 (Which I have my doubts on), and I definitely don't know any others, even after several arguments in other threads which have been debunked (namely the supposed feat in the DMC Vol.2 Novel).
3) This could very well be chalked up to Mundus and other kings wanting to merge the Demon World and Human world, which has been the main threat for most of the games and media, not literally affect the universes directly.
4) ^ That, I think?
5) I don't know about this. Again, Mundus could have simply teleported himself (or make a dimension) and Dante to the Demon World or literally anywhere to fight, and upon his defeat, Dante was simply sent back to the room with Trish. Again, I don't think we should all put our trust on a twitter statement. It would be best if Kamiya made it official instead of responding to a twitter question. Such things could be changed on the fly.
6) Again, I don't know anything regarding this, if it is at all factual.
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Hi there CinCameron20,
1) Yes, I see where you are coming from, but if it is true that Mundus used BFR to send Dante to the demon world, that would mean that upon his death, he also BFR Dante back to the human world. However he couldn't have because after the screen fades out white, Mundus is dead, he wouldn't have any power left to use BFR again.
Also, that would imply that he had some type of honor for Dante or cared about his safety if he sent him back because that would mean Dante would be lost in space unless he has universal travel.
2) Yes, that is the only easiest to see universe level feat, the reason why their seemed to be no more feats like that is because Mundus had a agenda to rule all worlds and had creation abilities to do so. While other bosses only wanted immense power, order or destruction and didn't have creation abilities like Mundus. So they wouldn't be able to keep displaying universal creation.
3) yes, and number 2 ^ (because in order for them to get the power they wanted for whatever twisted agenda, it still takes the process of opening hell gates.)
4) Yes again, but that would apply to any other villain besides Mundus (Whom could do so himself without hell gates and artifacts.)
5) number 1 ^. As for the twitter post, it simply cleared up confusion and once again, makes sense with question 1 explanation.
6) Yes my friend, even if for some reason the idea of a gas giant is rejected (which I think people shouldn't have a problem with), there was a asteroid they landed on, the creation of asteroids still require a sequence of events.
Thanks for commenting BTW! I hope I was reading and replied to your comments about questions 3 and 4 correctly xD
1) Yes, I see where you are coming from, but if it is true that Mundus used BFR to send Dante to the demon world, that would mean that upon his death, he also BFR Dante back to the human world. However he couldn't have because after the screen fades out white, Mundus is dead, he wouldn't have any power left to use BFR again.
Also, that would imply that he had some type of honor for Dante or cared about his safety if he sent him back because that would mean Dante would be lost in space unless he has universal travel.
2) Yes, that is the only easiest to see universe level feat, the reason why their seemed to be no more feats like that is because Mundus had a agenda to rule all worlds and had creation abilities to do so. While other bosses only wanted immense power, order or destruction and didn't have creation abilities like Mundus. So they wouldn't be able to keep displaying universal creation.
3) yes, and number 2 ^ (because in order for them to get the power they wanted for whatever twisted agenda, it still takes the process of opening hell gates.)
4) Yes again, but that would apply to any other villain besides Mundus (Whom could do so himself without hell gates and artifacts.)
5) number 1 ^. As for the twitter post, it simply cleared up confusion and once again, makes sense with question 1 explanation.
6) Yes my friend, even if for some reason the idea of a gas giant is rejected (which I think people shouldn't have a problem with), there was a asteroid they landed on, the creation of asteroids still require a sequence of events.
Thanks for commenting BTW! I hope I was reading and replied to your comments about questions 3 and 4 correctly xD
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Overall, while a lot of what CinCameron has said is correct, there are just a couple of points I should clarify.
First of all, for your point 2, there is actually one more potential universal feat, in the form of the dimensions inside of the Saviour. It's not debated nearly as often as Mundus' dimension mind you, but it has been mentioned here and there without anything to definitively disprove it. I also have personal arguments in favour of The Saviour's feat, but I hate making these walls of text too long so I'll bring them up later.
Second, your point 1 and 5 is, admittedly, dubious to me. We can see that Mundus was defeated, but not killed before Dante is sent back to the throne room. With that in mind, how did Dante get back? Mundus obviously didn't just create a portal for Dante to get back, as Dante believed that Mundus was dead. You say that he was "simply sent back to the room with Trish" but saying "simply" in the context is a problem. There is nothing simple about that, it's actually extremely strange. One of the reasons that I've agreed with the CRT thus far is because, looking at all the possibilities for that scene, the conclusion that seems most likely by a long shot is that it was a seperate dimension that Mundus created, and because Mundus was on the verge of death he didn't have enough energy to maintain the dimension so it collapsed. If they were simply teleported to a seperate place unconnected to Mundus, other dimensional or otherwise, then Dante could not reasonably have been teleported back to the throne room. There are also plenty of other questions that come up if we make that assumption, such as why Mundus would even try teleporting Dante away when it serves absolutely no reasonable advantage in the situation (if it was a dimension Mundus created himself, that would likely give him an advantage by being able to perfectly decide and manipulate the conditions where they fight). I could go into far more detail, but again, I don't like making large blocks of text on here. My point is (and I'm willing to further discuss this, mind you) I'm almost certain that the dimension you fight Mundus in was created by him. Corroborate that with the evidence already presented so far to suggest that Kamiya, despite all the debate, should be considered reliable and we now have plenty of evidence to suggest Mundus created a universe sized space.
First of all, for your point 2, there is actually one more potential universal feat, in the form of the dimensions inside of the Saviour. It's not debated nearly as often as Mundus' dimension mind you, but it has been mentioned here and there without anything to definitively disprove it. I also have personal arguments in favour of The Saviour's feat, but I hate making these walls of text too long so I'll bring them up later.
Second, your point 1 and 5 is, admittedly, dubious to me. We can see that Mundus was defeated, but not killed before Dante is sent back to the throne room. With that in mind, how did Dante get back? Mundus obviously didn't just create a portal for Dante to get back, as Dante believed that Mundus was dead. You say that he was "simply sent back to the room with Trish" but saying "simply" in the context is a problem. There is nothing simple about that, it's actually extremely strange. One of the reasons that I've agreed with the CRT thus far is because, looking at all the possibilities for that scene, the conclusion that seems most likely by a long shot is that it was a seperate dimension that Mundus created, and because Mundus was on the verge of death he didn't have enough energy to maintain the dimension so it collapsed. If they were simply teleported to a seperate place unconnected to Mundus, other dimensional or otherwise, then Dante could not reasonably have been teleported back to the throne room. There are also plenty of other questions that come up if we make that assumption, such as why Mundus would even try teleporting Dante away when it serves absolutely no reasonable advantage in the situation (if it was a dimension Mundus created himself, that would likely give him an advantage by being able to perfectly decide and manipulate the conditions where they fight). I could go into far more detail, but again, I don't like making large blocks of text on here. My point is (and I'm willing to further discuss this, mind you) I'm almost certain that the dimension you fight Mundus in was created by him. Corroborate that with the evidence already presented so far to suggest that Kamiya, despite all the debate, should be considered reliable and we now have plenty of evidence to suggest Mundus created a universe sized space.
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@Cincameron20
Top 1)I can understand how shaky a one word response is and I understand how Kamiya is known to get flustered easily but when he first answered the question he clearly wasn't upset and if he were that would imply the answer he gave out was for trolling purposes or out of anger which I would very well agree with if he hadn't clarified and gave the same answer a couple days later and 4 or 5 months later after the initial tweet, if one were to believe these tweets were merely made for trolling or made out of anger then they would have to willfully ignore the consistancy of these tweets despite them being made on completely different days and on 2 different months with a 3-4 month gap and one would also have to ignore Kamiya's rules when tweeting at him that he had during this time period.
1 and 5)We already were shown how Mundus's teleportation and portal creation looks like and they look completely different from what happened in the Mundus and Dante space scene so it is quite frankly impossible for that scene to be a portal or teleportation display.
2)Actually there are quite alot of feats that could be taken as 3-A or/and at least 4-C and most if not all are performed by God Tiers of the verse so outlier is out of the question.The Mirror World on Mallet Island (which Mundus powered), Sparda powering the Savior and Headquarters both of which had dice games that can recreate at least the Earth,Sun and possibly a universe, Void Mundus being stated to be the "sole ruler of timeless eternity" and DMC5 may even have a straight up 3-A feat but I would need Japanese speakers to help determine that.
Can't give comment on the other points because I simply need to here more of what OP has to say.
Top 1)I can understand how shaky a one word response is and I understand how Kamiya is known to get flustered easily but when he first answered the question he clearly wasn't upset and if he were that would imply the answer he gave out was for trolling purposes or out of anger which I would very well agree with if he hadn't clarified and gave the same answer a couple days later and 4 or 5 months later after the initial tweet, if one were to believe these tweets were merely made for trolling or made out of anger then they would have to willfully ignore the consistancy of these tweets despite them being made on completely different days and on 2 different months with a 3-4 month gap and one would also have to ignore Kamiya's rules when tweeting at him that he had during this time period.
1 and 5)We already were shown how Mundus's teleportation and portal creation looks like and they look completely different from what happened in the Mundus and Dante space scene so it is quite frankly impossible for that scene to be a portal or teleportation display.
2)Actually there are quite alot of feats that could be taken as 3-A or/and at least 4-C and most if not all are performed by God Tiers of the verse so outlier is out of the question.The Mirror World on Mallet Island (which Mundus powered), Sparda powering the Savior and Headquarters both of which had dice games that can recreate at least the Earth,Sun and possibly a universe, Void Mundus being stated to be the "sole ruler of timeless eternity" and DMC5 may even have a straight up 3-A feat but I would need Japanese speakers to help determine that.
Can't give comment on the other points because I simply need to here more of what OP has to say.
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