Ashes to Phantoms. Ren Amamiya vs Ashen One

[Solacis]

Woah dude calm down, I am just now looking at the list, I was away from my computer.

You couldn't look it up first before replying?

The problem is that I didn't "forget" anything. In fact, I've already specified which ailments are physical, with the rest being mental. It's not a fault of mine that you couldn't be assed to check before refuting my point, when other people actually bother to double-check their sources the instant they're unsure.

It really doesn't help your case when the source is not only easily-accessed and would take less than a couple of minutes to find, but said source has bee handed to you on a silver ******* platter. What else do you need? Instructions?

I'm going to go cool off. Work on your idiotic debate ethic for goodness' sake, since you might've honestly been the first person to piss me off on this wiki. Congrats, moron.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Solacis, I'm giving you a heads-up. This is going on the Rule Violation Thread, which you can find here. You've gotta be a lot more calm and drop the toxicity, doesn't matter how strongly you feel one way or the other. Alright?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I respect you Sol, but why? why you goes that man?

 

[SinsofMan]

Well, just gonna set that aside. Been busy af.

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Ren should take this then fra. I guess high diff. If I had to flip a hundred matches, I see him pulling through more often then not just barely.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Wait.....Ren can fight a Digimon now....

 

[SinsofMan]

Wait.....Ren can fight a Digimon now....

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Yeah, he can. What evil machinations do you have in mind?

 

[Solacis]

Solacis, I'm giving you a heads-up. This is going on the Rule Violation Thread, which you can find here. You've gotta be a lot more calm and drop the toxicity, doesn't matter how strongly you feel one way or the other. Alright?

I understand, and I apologize for my aggression. Since I've already put forward my thoughts, I'll leave the thread now.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It's alright to continue debate- debate is encouraged. Just can't insult people who disagree. Thank you for the reasonable response, however. A moment of weakness is permissible, certainly.

 

[Stillwinston]

Okay I assume the vote count is atm

Ren - 3

Ashen - 3

Inconclusive - 1

Though its been awhile since I managed to sit down and edit this so my vote count might be wrong, if it is someone please let me know and I'll edit as I need to step out again.

 

[Jimboydejuan12]

Nah well guess nothing.

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump

 

[KageSakaDark]

Ren has mind manipulations with ailment spells, attack reflection, numerous resistances to Ashen's ace haxs and information analysis. He will definitely know what to do. Yeah Ren has my vote.

 

[Solacis]

Oh man, I really feel like I killed this debate because of my attitude. Now I feel guilty.

Since Mr. Bambu said it was okay, I'll list down my earlier points in something a little less hostile-sounding.

I vote for Ren FRB:

1. In terms of offense/wincons, Ren's Bio Manip via Sleep and Forget status, the latter which doubles as Power Null. Knocking someone out while they're asleep is a hundred times easier than when they're awake, so win via incapacitation.

2. In terms of defense, Ren can nigh-instantly switch to a Persona that nulls/reflects/absorbs physical attacks as soon as he reacts. His reaction speed is also bolstered significantly by his Third Eye. Makarakarn reflects any magic coming his way, both status-inducing ones and normal ones.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Does his bio manip work on things that are bilogically dead? Would he even use that to incap?

I'm fairly sure this is a dead fight so I don't plan on listing Ashen's stuff again/updating it, but still.

 

[Solacis]

I mean, it's an extension of his soul manip, which is what his Persona abilities classify as, and works on things which really don't have standard biology so there's no reason it shouldn't. Plus, being an RPG character typically means that he doesn't have a canon first move to begin with. But he'd go for it once he decides to incap instead of kill, what with AO's resurrection.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

> Soul Manip

...by default Ashen starts with no soul though, he just gains them from those around him.

For reference this is the same reason it's been argued and accepted that Ashen could resurrect from the loss of his soul whereas other Soulsborne characters with the same resurrection (Wolf and The Hunter from Sekiro and Bloodborne respectively) could not perform such a feat.

 

[Solacis]

Mind and Soul are equalized in Persona, so I'm not really sure how this interaction goes. Shadows are personified subconscious thoughts, and Personas are tamed Shadows turned manifestations of the user's soul.

If AO does notably resist it, as long as it's not to the point of being effectively immune, Joker only needs to successfully put him to sleep once before his win condition is sealed.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It works there, too. Ashen can be Hollow, which is literally a state of being in which you are a mindless undead incapable of cognitive thought (except in rare cases such as Lapp/Patches).

 

[Solacis]

In that case, then I'll have to vote for Inconclusive, possibly leaning towards Ren. Ashen One can't get past Ren's defenses+healing, and Ren can't work around Ashen One's Type 4 under the current circumstances.

The only win conditions I can think of for either side would be for Ashen One to exhaust Ren's stamina, or for Ren to have a Persona hold AO down for a day. The former is unlikely considering the difference in AP means Ren could practically kill him with a look. The latter is possible, though I'm not sure it counts if Ren has to keep him there manually.

 

[QrowBarr]

It works there, too. Ashen can be Hollow, which is literally a state of being in which you are a mindless undead incapable of cognitive thought (except in rare cases such as Lapp/Patches).

Lapp was at the process of hollowing when you first meet him. You meet him again in the Ringed City, if you wait long enough without showing him where the Monument is he'll go hollow and attack you.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Right but doesn't he... speak? Could be wrong. Either way, Ashen One's resurrection is basically the equivalent of Mid-Godly regen- he requires no soul/mind and he reforms his body just fine after it turns to dust when he dies.