Ashes to Phantoms. Ren Amamiya vs Ashen One

[Paul_Frank]

Thr question isn't really if Ren does it before he loses the war of attrition its more will it be enough to affect the Ashen one

 

[Jesterofgames]

I think Ren could win via incapacitation.

Ren's magic attacks spawn on the targets making it hard for the ashen one to dodge, plus he can amp his speed, strenght, and defense and lower the ashen one's speed.

As for "vow of silence."

Ren has skills that can make the ashen one "forget" skills, (forget status alment = unable to use skills), Rage which will cause the ashen one to use Melee over magic (at least how it works in game.) Despair which will cause the ashen one to remove themselves out of well despair, brainwash which goes without saying what that does, fear which can paralyze the chosen undead's movements via fear (though he could still attack) and even cause him to run away.

Plus even if Ashen one does neg persona's spells for a short time Ren still has items that can cast barriors on himself which reflect physical attacks.

Edit: also as for invisability Ren's third eye could potentually counter it IIRC it can see enemies that try and ambush you and can see things Ren normally can't, plus Ren's third eye can amp his reactions as we see in the baseball mini game.

 

[Paul_Frank]

The problem with that entire argument is we need to know what thr potency of rens mindhax is

From what I remember of my time with the game he can only use it on one target at a time and idk if those targets have any notable resistance for it to scale off of

So unless I'm forgetting something Ren has single target potency 3d mindhax and so I'm pretty sure Ashen juan resists

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Magic = Skills in Persona, then? Right? Never played it, apologies.

Ashen One does have a weapon that specifically negs barriers, an invisible katana. Sorta sucks in game but they'd be smart enough to use it after reaching barriers.

Not sure stealth = invisibility boyo.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Ren's skills can hit multiple targets, he has skills which boost there effectivness, and so on.

Fair enough but ren could dodge via amped third eye reflexes

 

[Mr. Bambu]

No, but I meant are skills equatable to magic though, your point sorta hinges on that

maybe but it's a lot less useful

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Honestly, I'm not really sure what a persona is. If anything, it seems closer to a stand then any kind of magic. Like, I don't recall them ever referring to their abilities as magic. Nor do I recall them having any kind of specific energy source like mana or ki, they seem to just use their stamina. Which honestly seems to be limitless after they get over the strain of using their persona for the very first time. So I don't think personas can actually be equalized to magic here.

However, as Jester pointed out, Ren's "forget" status ailment seems very good here.

 

[Jesterofgames]

No, but I meant are skills equatable to magic though, your point sorta hinges on that

Oh that was towards paul sorry my bad for not making that more clear

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All good homie

 

[Paul_Frank]

I know ren's skills can hit multiple targets but not every single one of them has that ability

Do any of his mindhax ones have the ability to affect more than one target in one cast because as far as I remember none of them can be cast on more than one target at a time

 

[Jesterofgames]

Yes quite a few can be cast on more then one target at a time. Makajamaon casts forget on all foes, lullaby casts sleep on all foes, nocternal flash casts dizzy on all foes. He has a few AoE magic status inflictions.

Also Forget, dizzy, abd sleep are all classified as "physical" aliments in P5 not "mental" alments. Meaning forget could potentually get around the ashen one's mind hax resistance as it's not classified as a mental ailment

 

[Mr. Bambu]

How many foes though? Ashen One is in the dozens IIRC, you can keep using mindhax on everybody

 

[Jesterofgames]

I think the max is 4 ish that's how many people he fights at a time in game.

 

[Paul_Frank]

So uhhh

Ashen one doesn't have resistance to anything listed on his profile

like

at all

so I guess he gets mindhaxed

But as for Ren afaik the most enemies that could be on screen at once is like 4-5

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The profile being incomplete/bad doesn't change his abilities

Ashen One and bosses alike can't be haxed by their undead control stuff

 

[Litentric_Teon]

The largest number of enemies I've seen Ren fight at once is five. Though this seems more so due to game mechanics to be fair. But five is likely the max shown since that seems to be the max number of enemies the game allows the party to fight at once.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well then it seems that Ashen One resists so Ren has no way around his immortality

 

[Stillwinston]

Just gonna say that Ren can fight more than five in a row if more shadows are nearby

 

[Jesterofgames]

He could knock the ashen one out, (all of them.) He has a ton of AoE attacks and passives that restore his HP and health. Plus as I said Ren has ways to boost his attacks and forget is described as a physical status ailment not a mental one.

Now I'm not saying Ren would take this easily it would be far from being easy. i see it as a high difficulty for ren

 

[Dr._whiteee]

The problem with that entire argument is we need to know what thr potency of rens mindhax is
From what I remember of my time with the game he can only use it on one target at a time and idk if those targets have any notable resistance for it to scale off of

So unless I'm forgetting something Ren has single target potency 3d mindhax and so I'm pretty sure Ashen juan resists

Nah. Multiple mind hax and some physical skills can attack all enemies on the battlefield (which in P5 the limit of on screen enemies is 5 I believe.) and inflict them with mindhax. He can also use passives to increase the potency of them, and specific skills to make his foe more susceptible to ailments.

All enemies in persona have resistance to ailments. Joker can guard and become immune (I believe), and when you or the opponent "miss" in Persona using ailments, it means your spell was resisted. Which is why your party will move out of the way of actual damaging attacks, but don't for ailments.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Oh yeah, I forgot that Persona characters essentially have resistance negation.

 

[Stillwinston]

Bump, Litentric and Jester are voting Ren I believe?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So wait I lost track how is he getting around resurrection again

 

[Litentric_Teon]

He can make the guy forget all of his skills, which essentially incaps him as now he has no means to fight.

I forgot that persona characters also have ways of making foes more vulnerable to status ailments, essentially a form of resistance negation.

Though I'm still unsure what Personas in Persona V actually count as for verse equalization purposes.

 

[Jesterofgames]

l

I voted for Ren cause Ren could knock the ashen one out.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Im pretty sure a skill that mindhaxes the oppenent being considered physical in-game doesnt make it not mindhax

 

[Jesterofgames]

I said it was possible, as some skills like headbutt cause forget.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

l

I voted for Ren cause Ren could knock the ashen one out.

And Ashen One can kill him. Plus this requires 24 hours.

 

[Jesterofgames]

"knocking the opponent out for at least one hour,"

knock out requires one hour (source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Battle_Assumptions). And I think with the amount of AOE spells ren has he could pull it off. Especially when he can cripple the ashen one while he does it with buffs and debuffs.

(I know the ashen one has buffs to, but ren can also amp his speed with sukukaja +third eye and debuff the ashen ones speed with sukunda)

not to mention ren can fight at range with guns and his spells which reach... I want to say at least 100 meters away from him but it's hard to judge how far the sphinx was away from Joker and his group.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

ah I'm thinking of incap.

Still. This seems pretty not-likely since you're more likely to die first in which case lolrespawn.

Like this is an extremely unlikely win-con to actually vote on when Ashen One has every advantage.

 

[Jesterofgames]

Because I don't think he has every advantage? I mean all I'm seeing for the reason he wins is he can disable ren's skills (which ren can do right back to him) And lol respawn.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...

And just

killing him?

Ren can't kill Ashen One, literally his only option is KO.

Meanwhile Ashen One has stamina, killing abilities (since like literally he's the only one who can kill here), he can bypass defenses with weapons, etc

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I'm just gonna point out that bypassing defenses with weapons is both something Ren can do and us something he's had to combat all the time.

 

[Paul_Frank]

What exactly is ren going to use to knock out Ashen one for one hour actually

Mindhax is resisted

Ren can't kill him

Rens buffs are nice and all but the only thing even remotely useful is him lowering Ashen ones resistance to mindhax and even still that might not be enough

 

[Jesterofgames]

How does ashen one have stamina? Especially when Ren has hp and sp restoring skills that work passivly.

Plus doesn't megadolaon bypass magic resistance? Or was that deemed invalid? Also I'd argue ren has supiror range to spam spells and AOE. Though I mean if people agree with you they agree with you.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Pretty sure almighty doesn't bypass resistance to magic there is even a skill in p3 I think that let's you resist almighty

Ashen one also has spells with aoe he can spam

 

[Jesterofgames]

I know the the ashen one has spells and aoe he can spam (several fire spells, and blessings and probs more I'm forgetting) I think ren has the better range was my point.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I'm just gonna point out that bypassing defenses with weapons is both something Ren can do and us something he's had to combat all the time.

True, but he has no way to actually kill Ashen One. The resurrection prevents any lethal action from being useful.

Stamina is this- Ren can battle for hours, Ashen One can fight through the entire army of the game in one sitting with 0 rest since he's undead

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Ressurection isn't helping him not become a vegetable.


Ren can also drain his health/magic with almighty attacks.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

good but like Ashen One gets it back by dying, and how does Ren make him a vegetable lol