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Ashes to Phantoms. Ren Amamiya vs Ashen One

By continuosly mind haxing him.


What is ashen doing if he is laying fetal position in the corner?


If Ashen's best shot is by abusing some gimmick, then Joker will eventually disable him and call it a day. Doesn't help Joker can find this out relatively early via OHKO.
 
Also, ressurection should only work in so much as its feats go. Ressurecting from getting shot in the heart, is different than coming back from being erased. How exactly does his res function?
 
Mindhax we've established he resists.

Right.

Resurrection allows him to come back after his souls are gone, he's gone insane, his body has dissipated into dust, etc. Ashen One literally resurrects pretty much no matter what.

Now then, you vote is invalid since it literally relies on something we've debunked, Ren's mindhax isn't good enough to work on Ashen One. So I vote Ashen One if we're deciding this isn't a stomp because "lol he can KO". Ashen One literally just beats Ren to death while the guy is wondering why Ashen One won't die.
 
lol when did we establish mind hax not working? Someone erroneously brought up his range for mindhax and was proven wrong.
 
You still didn't show any feats, you just gave me a description of him countering joker's stuff lmao. He gets vegetablized and added to the dragonball roster.
 
So like, did everyone ignore the whole 'resistance negation' thing. Persona V characters can make their opponents more vulnerable to their hax. Meaning that most of Ren's had would work after doing such. And all he would have to do is just pick one that incaps. That aside, as a game character, it's not like he hasn't seen revival before. So say he accidentally does kill him the first time, there's no reason why he won't just lower Ashen's resistance to ailments, and then either make him forget all his skills, or otherwise mindhax him.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
lol when did we establish mind hax not working? Someone erroneously brought up his range for mindhax and was proven wrong.
Click to expand...
Immune to this

big oof

As for you Litentric, resistance negation to what extent? Has it shown to work on people with this level of resistance?
 
Not really sure. If someone in Persona V has resistance then I'd assume it's around the same level. Game mechanics makes it so you can only have 4 party members in a fight at once, and at max 5 enemies to face.
 
So... no.
 
Isn't his resistance only against like a dozen or so people?

Other than that, Ren can alter his persona to reflect physical attacks, or most elemental attacks, so Ashen would need to get around that as well.
 
Yes.

Dozen > 5.

Ashen One has a weapon for that, again, Darkdrift pierces.
 
If this was dicussed already, I miised it, but doesn't Rapport just affect one target tough?

Like, you can use it multiple times, but one spell affects one enemy.
 
I'm asking because Ren can use the skill more than once. And I'm fairly sure, iirc, that the effect stacks. So using it twice would likely be enough for Ren to then be able to do something like make him forget all of his skills.

Fair enough. Though I suppose if it's a physical weapon, then it can be dodged as well.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
If this was dicussed already, I miised it, but doesn't Rapport just affect one target tough?
Like, you can use it multiple times, but one spell affects one enemy.
Click to expand...
Yes and no. It affects one at a time but you can have loads under your control at once.
 
But... that doesn't matter.

You use an individual spell for each one, and once it's active you don't need to keep the link since they are already captivated by the flame.

This is like saying that I remove the memory of a hundred peeps, one at a time, so I have a hundred men worth of mindhax.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Dr. whiteee said:
lol when did we establish mind hax not working? Someone erroneously brought up his range for mindhax and was proven wrong.
Click to expand...
Immune to this
big oof

As for you Litentric, resistance negation to what extent? Has it shown to work on people with this level of resistance?
Click to expand...
So he is immune to one variety of mind hax. Rem has a whole squadron of mental and physiological ailments, and can reduce his resistances to them.
 
variety =/= potency
 
And? Potency/resistance is specific to mindhax mechanism and effect.

That's like saying he can neg Aizen's Shikai because he can survive some charm spell.

And if what I read above about it being single cast, then it's not even that potent.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
But... that doesn't matter.
You use an individual spell for each one, and once it's active you don't need to keep the link since they are already captivated by the flame.

This is like saying that I remove the memory of a hundred peeps, one at a time, so I have a hundred men worth of mindhax.
Click to expand...
the difference being the memory thing is indeed just affecting one person at a time, Rapport takes in one at a time and continuously affects them.
 
Dr. whiteee said:
And? Potency/resistance is specific to mindhax mechanism and effect.
That's like saying he can neg Aizen's Shikai because he can survive some charm spell.

And if what I read above about it being single cast, then it's not even that potent.
Click to expand...
No. Resistance to mindhax is resistance to mindhax. If someone tries to control you through Rapport then another equatable charm spell from some other verse isn't going to be any greater simply because it is from another verse.
 
No. It runs out. He can't control infinite people.
 
Tha doesn't matter. Undead boi isn't the one affecting them. It's a fire thatcaptivates them.

This is like saying Harry Potter characters using multiple love potions on multiple people seaks for the potions potency. The magic has a time limiter, and it stays on the target for the duration of it. The Ahen One isn't keeping the leash on their mind, individual hypnosis does.
 
Ah, okay. So his limit is a few dozen.

However, he can only mindhax an individual person one at a time, regardless of how many people he already has under his control. That seems like he only has a potency of a single person if he is unable to mindhax more than one person.

I guess this is where I get hooked up with mind hax potency. Is it just about the number period? Or the number affected at once? Because I'd argue that someone who can mindhax five people at once but only five people, has more potent mindhax than Rappaport by what I perceive to be the wiki's standards.

So which is it? And why? I'm honestly not sure.
 
Yes. It is mindhax achieved through fire. Other fires do not hold the supernatural ability to charm your enemies. Flavor text here isn't relevant.
 
Wouldn't not being corrupted by the dark soul or abyss give some sort of resistance as well
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Yes. It is mindhax achieved through fire. Other fires do not hold the supernatural ability to charm your enemies. Flavor text here isn't relevant.
Click to expand...
This doesn't matter to my argument. It is not one fire. It is multiple ones, each being unaffwcted by the other.

And the flavor text litirally gives context to it, it is hypnosis.
 
Yes. It is hypnosis. Well spotted.

And... Frank, not really? AFAIK Ashen One never possessed any more than the normal amount of the Dark Soul. You could argue that he did take the souls of the Abyss Watchers and Midir, both of whom were corrupted by it, and Gael, who had the blood of it.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
Yes. It is hypnosis. Well spotted.

And... Frank, not really? AFAIK Ashen One never possessed any more than the normal amount of the Dark Soul. You could argue that he did take the souls of the Abyss Watchers and Midir, both of whom were corrupted by it, and Gael, who had the blood of it.
Click to expand...
That really counters my point, huh?

The lore doesn't suggest that the Ahen One needs to keep control of them, using individual flames on individual enemies isn't stackable and... nothing suggests that he is keeping them controlled with one spell.

I don't see whywe should assume using hypnosis at one person at a time stacks because it has a time limiter, a limiter that isn't affected by the numbers controlled.
 
Litentric Teon said:
Does anyone have an answer to my question? I actually am not sure how we treat such.
Click to expand...
It depends, but usuaaally we count via potency by sheer number affected. Its on the Mind Manipulation Page: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mind_Manipulation


Technically, there are exceptions. For example, Aizen doesnt really have potency, but he does have quality. The final verdict is usually by sheer number, so Ren likely wont be able to Mind Hax Ashen. Now that being said, I think I will go inconclusive. Ren could one shot or get close to it with just his AP or his Almighty Attacks. He also could Curse and Lower Ashen's Stats. But at the same time, Ashen could also power null Ren's healing ability, kill him with poison and gravity pin Ren to the ground. Mind Hax honestly can go either way. Yes, Ashen's is technically superior, but they can both fall victim to it.

Honestly, it is really dependant on who will use their winning cons first, and they both have so many ways to kill eachother it would be a hard match to say conclusively imo who wins.

It also doesnt help Ren has to switch his resistances and Ashen has to switch his equipment. Inconclusive. Too many factors. Too much equipment and power switching. Probably comes down to random coin flips on who gets the first blow.

Edit: I lean a tad to Ren for being reliably higher with AP and Almighty, but imma be lazy and just say inconclusive.
 
@Sins

Thank you. So it seems like their mindhax should be effective on each other. If this is indeed the case, then I'm inclined to lead towards incon as well. In particular since Ren can lower Ashen's resistance.

Also, Ashen One constant resurrects, which is the main argument for Ashen one winning. But if their mind hax works on each other, then inconclusive does seem fair.
 
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