Ashes to Phantoms. Ren Amamiya vs Ashen One

[Stillwinston]

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[Stillwinston]

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[Stillwinston]

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[Stillwinston]

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[Stillwinston]

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[Truth_Bullets]

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[Solacis]

Why are people dismissing Ren's ability to KO so quickly? He has the AP advantage and it's not like resistance to mindhax is going to help against a strong enough blow to the head. Not to mention that Almighty spells bypass resistances so Morning Star, Black Viper and Megidolaon hit as hard as they're meant to.

Ren also has Foul Breath and Stagnant Air, both of which decrease AO's resistance to mindhax, and AO can't resist the resistance debuff because they're Almighty spells. Also, in P5 there's a specific distinction between status ailments being physical or mental. Ailments like Dizzy, Sleep and most importantly, Forget, are physical ailments, so they bypass mindhax resistances anyway.

Ren can KO with severe-tier Almighty spells, potentially mindhax via decreasing AO's resistance to it with Almighty status spells, or incapacitate via casting Makajama and leaving AO unable to fight.

Voting for Ren, mid-to-high difficulty.

 

[SinsofMan]

Cuz Ashen just comes back via his Immortality obviously? I thought you knew this? KO wouldnt matter either aith such a wide ap advantage, he is more likely to kill him then he is to knock him out. The only thing that could argue Ren wins with easily is either with Satanael (blatantly nullifies immortality) or mind hax. That is it. Nothing else will work. @Solacis Edit: Also, I guess sleep and dizzy might work, but it wouldnt lean to a victory. Edit 2: Oh this is High 4-C ren. Rip Satanael path then.

 

[SinsofMan]

In all honesty, I am still inconclusive.

>Sleep, Mind and Dizzy Hax

Well Ashen resists Mind Hax, and while Sleep and Dizzy Hax could work, SBA implies that this has to be longer then a day via incap to even win this route.

We haven't seen Ren sleep or dizzy someone for a few minutes per battle, much less a day. So this point, inconclusive.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Standard_Battle_Assumptions

>Ren has higher AP

Yeah, he is just as likely to Kill Ashen then he is to knock him out. Don't get me wrong, eventually Ren will figure it out to hold back, knock him out and we can ignore this point.

But Ren the first few times will 'accidently' kill Ashen a few times. He ressurects and Ren tries a little less "harder".

So technically possible, but Ren vs Ashen has like...a large gap that if he wasn't immortal, Ren would one shot easily.

>Ren one shots!

Ashen comes back, end of story.

So yeah, that is pretty much all of the options Ren has to him. The only one that would def work is his AP and that is only after maybe two or three ressurections before he figures out...well, for lack of better term how 'weak' Ashen is.

Ashen can still use Acid, Gravity or Poison Manipulation to put Ren down. Of which only Ren has resistance too one of these.

And while Ashen does technically only have a certain amount of casts with each spell, so does Ren.

TLDR: Still inconclusive if you ask me.

All of this over ressurection oof.

Gonna dip from this thread now.

 

[Solacis]

The difference in AP isn't enough for Ren to casually one-shot. He'd have to go all-out to do it, and if he's knows that incapacitation is a win condition, it's in-character for him to go for that first against anything that isn't a Shadow or Palace Boss. He could even use the weaker tiers of Almighty spells like Megidola, or even Megido. It's not as if he's bloodlusted.

Also, Sleep and Forget literally incaps as soon as they hit. Sleep means AO is open to Foul Breath+mindhax since they aren't conscious enough to actively resist, and Forget is literally just Power Null - leaving AO unable to continue fighting while Ren can just repeatedly cast Makajama and/or Dormina to keep them incapped until it counts as his victory. Those spells cost so little SP that any persona with Invigorate can just cast it indefinitely.

Ren has a pretty clear win, if you ask me.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

Ren has never been shown to sleep someone for longer then a battle, much less a day.

That is the same for every status effect. So no, it isnt a win con.

IIRC, the AP for Ren is roughly 1 FOE.

Whats the AP for Ashen?

 

[Solacis]

All ailments have a duration represented in turn count, but Ren's use of Sleep doesn't wear off until the victim is hurt. Even if AO does start to wake up, he can just cast Dormina again. It's not like AO resists or can dodge it with speed equal. Just because he can't do it because of game mechanics doesn't mean he can't do it at all. Staying in the Metaverse isn't taxing whatsoever unlike climbing Tartarus in P3, and the PTs can stay in there for as long as they want. Ren can constantly cast Dormina as much as he wants as long as he doesn't run out of SP - a problem that's solved with Invigorate and the ridiculously cheap cost of Dormina and Makajama.

According to above posters, Ren is >8.14 FOE while Ashen One is not far above baseline. Going all-out, Ren one-shots, but that's out of character for him unless he's fighting Shadows.

 

[Stillwinston]

I think Ashen is baseline

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

Maybe on the turn count one? It could be possible he just sleeps him for a day. I personally think it is inconclusive on that front. I am gonna need to see some evidence it lasts as long as a day.

What? Do you not know the gap between Baseline High 4-C and 8.4 FOE? That is like, hundreds of times dude. It is really incredulous to assume that Ren will hold that much back in a first account. Even if he was 'casual' he would one shot lol. Heck, if his immortality was not in the picture, id probably just say 'Ren one shots' and call it a day. I am not even saying he wont hold partially back against Ashen, but he would have to hold back 99 percent of his power, UI Shaggy style just to not kill the poor man.

...oh wait he still ressurects. Yeah I would like Ren to win, but Ashen can put Ren down pretty easily.. maybe. Ill retract my vote from now, I want Bambu to fact check me on if Ashen can win this way. I know both characters but my memory with Ashen, his abilities and his limitations is a little fuzzy.

 

[Solacis]

Maybe on the turn count one? It could be possible he just sleeps him for a day. I personally think it is inconclusive on that front. I am gonna need to see some evidence it lasts as long as a day.

There is no way to prove that. It's like asking for visual feats in literary source material. There is no reason to think that Ren couldn't keep up a stupidly cheap spell for a day - just because the game doesn't let the player keep a Shadow asleep for that long - when it is abundantly clear that he can cast it indefinitely. The likelihood of AO waking up within seconds of being put to sleep is ridiculously low, and even then, Ren can follow up with his power null as soon as they're unconscious.

Ren's also not an idiot. As soon as he realizes the Ashen One can resurrect, he's not going to try solving the problem by hitting harder. He'll default to incapacitation. You also have to remember that Ren has literally every persona at various levels of power by virtue of being the wild card. Even if his max power in his current key is High 4-C, he still has his personas from his weaker keys. If his equipped persona casually one-shots, he'll switch to a weaker one. If his spell is too strong, he'll use one from a lower tier. Unless you can tell me that a level 25 Jack Frost can one-shot the Ashen One with Bufu, then your argument that Ren is incapable of not killing AO is invalid.

The only point of debate here is whether the Ashen One can take out Ren before Ren finds a weak enough persona to knock them the **** out. The real question I want to ask is, what are Ashen One's win conditions, and how do they apply?


Edit: Also, stop misapplying the term "inconclusive". In the context of VS matches, "inconclusive" means neither character can force the match to end, while I'm fairly sure you're using it say that you're indecisive. Really, it's seriously confusing.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

Edit: Also, stop misapplying the term "inconclusive". In the context of VS matches, "inconclusive" means neither character can force the match to end, while I'm fairly sure you're using it say that you're indecisive. Really, it's seriously confusing.

No, inconclusive can also mean that either character can win but the details for them winning is about 50/50 IE: Whoever lands the killing blow first.

It is how Yhwach and Medaka inconclusived eachother. I am honestly not sure who will open with what first.

Ashen uses poison, acid, gravity or whatever to incap Ren.

Or Ren uses Sleep, Dizzy hax or just baareely knocks him out by using such a low percentage of his power.

So yeah, I am honestly unsure who wins. Unless Ashen has a limit to his immortality or his hax.

Imo it is inconclusive.

Doubt I will change your mind though so I am just gonna wait till Bambu-sama comes back ovo.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

all these nerds putting words into the thread, makes me sick god dammit

First off, Ashen isn't completely baseline. They're about 9x higher than baseline 4-C based on absolute minimum amount of Lords of Cinder (though I could have the number wrong, it is in that vicinity).

Second off, people are right, incap methods have to work for a day to give the win solely through that method alone.

Thirdly, you can absolutely dodge in speed equal. You just can't blitz.

Fourthly, Ashen One's win conditions are poisoning/acid-ing/beating him to death. You assume Ren will intrinsically know that incap is his win condition in terms of VS Battles- he has no knowledge of VS Battles win conditions. Unless you can prove he'd in-character attempt to perma-incap rather than continously kill, then I fail to see your point.

Ashen One has no limit on his revive-usage, no. I personally still vote Ashen One but a vote for incon is fair enough. Let the argument cool off boyos.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

To be fair, Ren is an rpg character. Barring cut scenes, it's almost impossible to say what they would do. As well as various other game characters like cuphead.

Though, we can say they have common sense. For the most part. I think that assuming after Ren accidentally kills him once, that he would attempt incap, is a reasonable assumption. Which method is more up in the air.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I mean, he canonically incaps every boss he fights against rather than kill them, so there is that.

 

[SinsofMan]

I mean, he canonically incaps every boss he fights against rather than kill them, so there is that.

Usually through sheer force, anything as far as we know canocially is fair game.

In the animes, usually the Wild Card only deviates to other Persona for elemental effects, same with Ren.

That is the only other material I can think that might give a hint of what Ren could or will likely do.

Then again, I would be incredulous to assume that he just cant use sleep hax out of the gate too if he wanted.

 

[Solacis]

all these nerds putting words into the thread, makes me sick god dammit
First off, Ashen isn't completely baseline. They're about 9x higher than baseline 4-C based on absolute minimum amount of Lords of Cinder (though I could have the number wrong, it is in that vicinity).

Second off, people are right, incap methods have to work for a day to give the win solely through that method alone.

Thirdly, you can absolutely dodge in speed equal. You just can't blitz.

Fourthly, Ashen One's win conditions are poisoning/acid-ing/beating him to death. You assume Ren will intrinsically know that incap is his win condition in terms of VS Battles- he has no knowledge of VS Battles win conditions. Unless you can prove he'd in-character attempt to perma-incap rather than continously kill, then I fail to see your point.

- That just makes the fight easier for Ren if it means Ashen One isn't getting one-shot as easily, although the AP gap could still be too big.

- Does constant re-applying of sleep hax/power null for 24 hours count as day-long incapacitation?

- Ren's spells materialize at the opponent's location though, which is why I say AO can't dodge, because attack speed isn't a factor, only casting speed which only requires him to say the spell's name.

- Incapacitation is perfectly in-character for Ren. Like I said before, he's smart enough to figure out that he should switch to incapacitation-specific methods once he's killed AO once and realized that they can ressurect themselves. All of his major fights involved gimmicks that he couldn't solve with brute force, so he'll just treat this the same way.

 

[Solacis]

In the animes, usually the Wild Card only deviates to other Persona for elemental effects, same with Ren.

Not at all. The games practically force their respective Wild Cards to fuse away their initial persona due simply to how weak they are after the first dungeon. Persona 5 in particular even has a specific cutscene showing Ren fusing away Arsene. The anime only prefers to keep the symbolism of the initial persona relevant to the MCs, while also having the excuse to animate less characters.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

1. Not easier. I was never under the impression Ashen One one-shot. Chip damage is more the theme of the day.

2. Not if they wake up and are active in-between, no. They need to be pinned for 24 consecutive hours, think like wrestling- if they break out in between, they haven't been incapped for 24 hours.

3. Then that's slightly different than saying people can't dodge because speed is equal. I can dodge a kick from a person as fast as me.

4. See above points as to why this is unlikely achieveable.

 

[Solacis]

2. Ailments can be extended by casting them over someone's who's already afflicted with them iirc. So technically speaking, Ren can just continue casting while AO's asleep. Sleep never lasts less than 2 turns in-game (in fact it usually lasts dozens of turns against anything that isn't a boss) and Ren's Invigorate passive replenishes his SP enough to cast another Dormina every single turn.

Also, doesn't AO being power nulled make it so that he's still "in a state in which he cannot harm the other fighter"? Even if he's awake, so long as the other ailment is still active, then AO hasn't broken out of incapacitation. It's a technicality, sure, but perfectly valid imo.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

This is a Red Herring. I never claimed that they didn't do this in the games, you did. The games were irrelevant to my point.

I just said that in the anime that they used elemental attacks not hax, which is true.

Stop misconstruing my points.

Also, to assist bambu to make his life easier.

1. This is correct. If the gap is roughly 5-10x between the two (Bambu you said 9x), then Ashen's chip damage will likely win over time. Considering Ren will eventually run out of SP and Ashen will keep reviving, this is a reasonable conclusion to come too.

2. @Solacis For one, this is based on incredulity. You are basically assuming that Ren will just no to cast sleep every.single.turn. That is not in character for Ren. You are working backwards from your conclusion to rationalize how sleep or whatever can win.

Oh sure, you can argue that it is possible for him to sleep him for 24 hours, but it isn't

1. Very likely

2. Sleep in game lasts a very, very short period of time.

3. You and I both know that while Ren is smart, that does not mean he will just 'know' how this will win.

3 and 4: @ Bambu Correct deducations.


I might switch to Ashen at this rate tbh, the more I think about it, the more I just find it unlikely that Ren will just IC just to smack at Ashen with sleeps till 24 hours are up. Ren doesn't know SBA, we do.

He doesn't know Ashen is immortal. We do.

Therefore, all of the arguments of Ren winning are based on personal incredulity. I was wrong on the AP thing, so apparently chip damage will work. But the issue is that most of Ashen's reasoning for winning is pretty simple, requires no leaps in logic.

Ren's on the other hand, considering his vast, VAST arsenal is: "Well I just believe he can sleep Ashen for 24 hours."

This is a ridiculous assumption to make considering how many you yourself Wild Cards he can have.

https://chinhodado.github.io/persona5_calculator/index.html#/list

Ren has access to roughly 90~ persona's. Of which, only a fraction have Dormina as a skill.

Setting aside Game Mechanics to just assume he has all of them at his disposal, you have to reasonably conclude that Ren has to go through dozens of Persona's just to check which one will finally give him a victory.

He has no ******* clue that Ashen is immortal. Sure, he will probably figure it out after a few times of him reviving, so he will try to sleep him or whatnot, but for 1. In the anime and other supplementary material, the MC of the persona games use their original personas first, Arsene can't learn Dormina. 2. Assuming after a few goes he is like "Oh shit, this guy is immortal, what can I do?"

How will you know he just doesn't try to mind hax Ashen instead or use another status effect? It is literally only Sleep and Dizzy are his only choices. Mind hax wont work. Hunger definitely wont work. Almighty would normally work on Immortal beings, but not Ashen since he ressurects.

I get in JRPGS that we tend to assume in vs debates that the character will open with their hax, but in character you get vastly different results.

3. Finally, even assuming your way of winning works, what if he dodges? What if Ren runs out of SP before Invigorate has a chance to kick in? And as for dizzy, you can't dizzy someone forever.

 

[Solacis]

My god, you keep using phrases that I'm fairly sure you don't know the meaning of, because there is no context for the use of a "red herring" anywhere in this thread. But, I digress.


This is the process of events I'm imagining, just so we're clear.

Ren kills AO once, and realizes AO can resurrect. Ren tries to mindhax, and realizes AO resists. Ren is pressured by AO's attacks, so he uses Makajam to power null.

Ren then tries to use Dormina, and it works. If AO wakes up, Ren puts him back to sleep before he realizes he's still in battle. Ren doesn't want him to wake up again, so the obvious answer is continuous use of Dormina. After all, why would he do anything else once it's proven to work? Give me a reason why he would choose to do literally anything else when he's already found out that AO can't be killed and that he's successfully (though temporarily) incapacitated him with a super cheap ailment spell?

Once AO's asleep, a decent melee attack to the head would be a guaranteed knock-out blow because AO won't be expecting it. One hour passes. Ren wins.


Now to get into specifics, since it's obvious you've never played or even watched a playthrough of a Persona game. At least Bambu made his perspective clear.

Dormina costs 5 SP. Invigorate restores 3-7 SP per turn depending on the skill's tier, with tier 2 and 3 restoring at least 5 SP per turn. Mid-game Ren has an average max SP of 237, based on the tutorial battle of P5 which takes place around that time. It can be higher or lower, depending on player choice, but that's the 'default' set by the game.

Sleep always lasts longer than 1 turn, which means that the chances of AO waking up before Ren has enough SP to cast Dormina is so ludicrously low that it's practically impossible.

Ren is extremely unlikely to possess Arsene during the mid-game. Arsene falls out of use before the end of the first Heist, and mid-game Ren has completed at least 4 Heists. Even if, by some ridiculous reason, he has Arsene, Arsene learns Dream Needle, which costs no SP and also inflicts Sleep. Also, you know what's funny?

You keep forgetting about the "Forget" ailment. It is literally Power Null and is a physical ailment. Ashen One is utterly helpless as soon as he gets hit by anything that inflicts Forget.

RPGs have no in-character attacks. Especially in the case of Persona where the entire schtick of the protagonists is that they are self-inserts with personalities entirely up to the player's decisions. As the Wild Cards, they are always the most versatile in their group, and the Velvet Room ALWAYS encourages the use of that versatility over anything else, especially since theoretically any persona can learn any skill through fusion (with less than a handful of exceptions). If there is ANY game characters that would lead with hax, it's Persona protagonists.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Actually, I agree with Solacis here. Ashen One's method of winning involving an absolute crap ton of chip damage. Whereas Ren has multiple chances to figure out a way to incap AO after likely accidentally killing him the first time.

Also, filtering through the personas to see what each does is game mechanics. There's no reason why Ren wouldn't know what they do beforehand, especially if he fused them. Solacis makes an excellent point in that, through fusion, personas can learn virtually any skill in the game. And that Arsene isn't really used outride the first heist, and is more so fusion fodder at that point.

I'll switch to Ren for Solacis' reasons. Forget ailment, invigorate, and resistance negation all give Ren reasonable ways to incap AO before he falls. Especially since Ren has healing as well iirc.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I mean Ashen One has a lot of ways to do chip damage constantly. It isn't just him. Status effects of toxic and the pestilent mist will deal fairly high amounts of constant damage aside from what he himself is dishing out.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

Well for one, i have played Persona 5, it is my favorite game of 2016 and I revise persona 3 and 4. So that is just a lie. I am just not certain that Ren can win as reliably as you think. Well regarding the turn of events you said, the shift from sleep to a knock out sounds more reasonable then a sleep to a sleep. I will give you that. Yes, Wild Cards are designed to be versatile. Igor and his two assistants have stated this. But Game Mechanics has it so that each persona can only learn 10 skills at a time. That doesnt sound like much, but to my knowledge in other canon material, Ren cant just decide to add all of his hax to one skill, each though fusion can make up to 4-5 skills inherited iirc. He will have to Likely cycle through a few. And you yourself know that the Wild Card is encouraged to fuse alot. In fact, he probably will have multiple personas for healing, defense, attack, etc. And I think that is a fair assumption.

You are correct that he will try out those events. But Ashen is just as easy to poison, acid cloud him, attack him during this, forcing either Ren to just try to get rid of the poison or acid or whatever.

So back to inconclusive for me. Edit: Also assuming that which skills will go on what persona will be incredulity, but whatever it isnt my main point. All I am saying is that he will cycle through some. Edit 2: Also forgot about forget. Yeah, there is alot of persona status effects lol.

 

[SinsofMan]

Alright last comment on that debate, I doubt I am changing minds. Whats the vote count exactly?

 

[Solacis]

snip

Poison/toxic/other ailments are cured by a quick cast of Amrita Drop.

Physical attacks can be outright nulled or reflected with certain personas or use of Tetrakarn. Makarakarn does the same but for magic.

Personas and their abilities are manifestations of the user's mind, Ren has borderline genius intellect via his social stats AND he fused his own personas. What makes you think he wouldn't know which ones he'd need to equip to use a specific skill? Intelligent gameplay in Persona specifically uses certain personas for different roles, one of which being the designated debuffer or ailment inflictor. This is why I say you've never played the game, because you're forgetting basic gameplay features like fusion mechanics by saying that Ren can't do stuff that he absolutely ca.

Ashen One needs ridiculous amounts of chip damage while Ren has so many opportunities to stall out the fight, negate and counter AO's attacks, and create an opening to incapacitate.

 

[SinsofMan]

It hasnt been shown to null Acid but you are correct. I am just saying he will likely need to cast some spells in between to stop this. Before I respond to this one, lemme get a question in. Which status effects, abilities should I look up so I can better see your argument on how he wins? I clearly forgot about forget, which I admit has been shifting to Ren but I need to know to know which ones you see being helpful. Also, the point with Tetrakarm is fine. I am not for scaling Ren to Genius intellect because of game mechanics and personas. I am willin to give it to him via his intellectual feats. IE: Creating handmade tools for palace infiltration, tricking multiple people with calling cards, he is a leader (obviously), and he tricked Akechi who is a genius in his own right. Edit: Rens best intelligence feat is probably his ability to solve puzzels in game with little difficulty and also break into locked strongholds while not being noticed.

 

[Solacis]

Just go to the Megami Tensei wiki.

Ren can easily afford to cast spells in-between what with AO needing dozens of direct hits to deal a decent amount of damage to him, and it's not like he'll just sit there and take it.

Acid Surge would be considered magic, so Makarakarn reflects it. Whatever superficial damage Ren does get can be healed.

Speaking of which, remind me again how AO can deal enough chip damage in a short enough span of time that Ren can't just... use Diarahan? You know, the spell that heals all damage? Take it a step further and he can even use Salvation, which does that and removes all status effects.

 

[SinsofMan]

snip

I mean, you didn't tell me about this. I don't know how I can remind you when you didnt argue it.

As for this, Salvation requires alot of SP, so it will hinder his sp Regenerationn plans.

Hold on, I will look at the wiki in a bit. The status effects you forgot that could be helpful is Fear.

He could fear ashen and just make him unable to do anything.

But yeah, gimme a day or two to look at this.

 

[Solacis]

Fear is mind manip. I ignored it because AO resists.

 

[SinsofMan]

Fear is mind manip. I ignored it because AO resists.

Not all of the time. Fear Manipulation on this wiki as you probably know can be anything from biological, mind, congitive etc.

Also, AO has no resistance to Fear Manipulation.

To my knowledge, we don't consider mind manip resistance auto resistance for fear, empathy manipulation.

Edit: Pretty sure we don't anyway.

Plus, AO only resisted mind control and mind break, not fear hax.

 

[Solacis]

Fear is listed under mental ailments in P5. It's on the ******* list I just linked you to. Your incapability to spend a minute to do research when ''I've already given you a page to refer to'' is genuinely beginning to piss me off. Just letting you know.

 

[SinsofMan]

Fear is listed under mental ailments in P5. It's on the ******* list I just linked you to. Your incapability to spend a minute to do research when I've already given you a page to refer to is genuinely beginning to piss me off. Just letting you know.

Woah dude calm down, I am just now looking at the list, I was away from my computer.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

@Bambu

Ah, you're right. I missed the acid and other such status effects in my analysis.

 

[SinsofMan]

@Bambu

Ah, you're right. I missed the acid and other such status effects in my analysis.

Tis cool dude, I might switch soon. Status effects ftw apparently sums up this thread LOL