arguments to make for High 4-C Vader

[BruceTheBatman]

Couldn't help but notice High 4-C Star Wars is now a thing. We all know about the whole "80% of Sidious thing", which IMO should be considered, but I'm not gonna use it here. Here are some arguments otherwise I have for Vader scaling to Palpatine, Mace Windu

1) Darth Vader is superior to Sedriss (Palpatine's strongest servant after Vader, serves as his Number Two during Dark Empire), who held his own against Luke during the Dark Empire series

2) Palpatine installed highly conductive metals into Vader's suit in order to give himself an advantage over Vader in case he pulled a Starscream, showing he clearly at the very least feared Vader. If he didn't, he wouldn't have bothered.

3) If Palpatine was so far above Anakin ((who most of us seem to agree is weaker than Vader) who, with Windu's demise (who honestly, has feats inferior to Anakin's aside from that Palpatine fight, which many fans with more knowledge than myself have pointed out it's circumstance), was the strongest force user on Coruscant besides Palpatine, as Yoda was on Kasshyk, Mother Talzin was dead,), he would've just gone to the temple himself after invoking Order 66. No reason to put his highly potent apprentice at risk against his masters. Or at the very least, he would've gone with him to assure Anakin's victory (Shaak Ti actually contended with him, and in the game, so did Cin Drallig (though in the movie, he more or less was Curbstomped). Sidious didn't have a mark of resemblance to "Chancellor Palpatine" after his face was burned, so it's not like he'd have been ousted. He clearly feared the Jedi, if he didn't he would've nuked the temple with TK right after recovering from his fight with Windu, who didn't even really tire him (he acted any of his fatigue, as he goes from "weak old man" to "UNLIMITED POWER" the second Anakin helps him. On that note.


4) Anakin moved at speeds comparable to Windu. If he didn't intervene, Palpatine would've had to dodge. Windu would not slowly strike Palpatine, given his "Take no crap" attitude, and would've bisected or beheaded him with that arc quickly when he swung (if he hit Palpatine, assumming he didn't just catch the saber, Ala Satele Shan). Anakin intercepting it proves he's not that far behind speed-wise.


5) Palpatine would've dumped him long ago if he wasn't the most worthy apprentice he had besides Luke (and Starkiller), since Yoda couldn't get off Dagobah (and even if he could, he was on his deathbed. Palpatine would've won decisively if they fought again), and Kenobi (the strongest jedi left in the galaxy post-66 besides Yoda) was dead. He'd have no reason to keep Vader around after that. Possibly dump him for a less crippled apprentice, such as Lumiya or Sedriss, both of whom fought Grandmaster Luke well.


6) This is more circumstance and conjecture on my part, but Mace Windu and Vader actually serve very similar roles. This doesn't really mean anything, but Vader and Mace are actually similar in quite a few ways.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Any feedback?

 

[Js250476]

Maybe Matt or Ever could respond here

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. Source.

2. Vader has clearly acknowledged several times that he stands no chance against Sidious, resorting to using the artifacts of ancient Sith Lords to try and overthrow him.

3. That is literally not an argument.

4. That doesn't mean much. Besides, the two in combat move so fast that, to Anakin, they literally turn invisible briefly.

5. Or he just has an apprentice because that's a thing Sith do? He has no reason to drop Vader, and that's not at all an argument.

Also, Episode VI Luke, who had surpassed Vader completely, got utterly destroyed by a casual Sidious's Force Lightning.

Vader doesn't scale to Sidious, plain and simple.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also, even if we did allow this, this would scale to way, WAY more characters than it should.

As in, literally every major Force User in the Old Republic Era.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Vader isn't High 4-C. This discussion happens literally all the time.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also also, Starkiller, who has the power to outright kill Vader in the Dark Side Ending of The Force Unleashed, got casually decimated by Sidious.

 

[Schnee_One]

Also Also?

 

[The_Everlasting]

It's an addendum to an addendum and saying "Also" as the beginning of the two posts sounds redundant.

 

[Js250476]

Yeah Vader can't scale sadly

 

[Schnee_One]

I see.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We should make a rule for this.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

1) My source is Handbook 3: Dark Empire, which states that Sedriss is weaker than Vader and one of his strongest students after. "Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base."

2) That's because he's still considerably weaker and has multiple inhibitors. I'm not saying Vader could defeat Sidious, he couldn't without help or a power boost.

3) Maybe not, but it is something worth considering.

4) The fact that he could even intercept it means his speed may be considerably inferior, but he's not that far down.

5) Palpatine doesn't care what the "sith thing" to do is. He's had tons of apprentices, some comparable to and far more loyal to Palpatine than Vader was. An example being Sedriss (probably Lumiya too)

"Also, Episode VI Luke, who had surpassed Vader completely, got utterly destroyed by a casual Sidious's Force Lightning."

He didn't surpass Vader. Vader was conflicted which weakens force users.

"Also, even if we did allow this, this would scale to way, WAY more characters than it should.

As in, literally every major Force User in the Old Republic Era."

And having multi-continent rankings for a character that gets downed by blaster fire (Ki-Adi Mundi) isn't scaling more than you should? The only jedi who even scale to Vader are Kenobi, Windu and Yoda. Anyone else besides maybe Shaak Ti, Kit Fisto, and Plo Koon (who's in several ways just a weaker Light-Side Vader, when you think about it) would've been stomped hard by Prime Vader

"Also also, Starkiller, who has the power to outright kill Vader in the Dark Side Ending of The Force Unleashed, got casually decimated by Sidious."

Not canon.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Force Unleashed has novel-adaptations. It is very much canon.

 

[Super_Saiyan_God_Julian]

We should make a rule for this.

I agree with this sentiment.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

The Force Unleashed has novel-adaptations. It is very much canon.

The Dark Side ending isn't canon though.

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. That doesn't indicate that Sedriss is weaker than Vader, just that she's his strongest disciple chronologically after Vader.

2. If he's considerably weaker then he can't scale.

3. No, it really isn't.

4. No, he's considerably inferior if they literally turn invisible to him.

5. That's still not an argument.

"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him."

"Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength."

The Jedi dying from blasters is pure PIS since even Younglings have 8-B feats. Regardless, Karness Muur's talisman was acknowledged by Vader as being stronger than himself, and practically everyone worth a damn in the Old Republic Era scales to him.

Nothing indicates that Dark Side Ending Starkiller is stronger than Light Side Ending Starkiller, so it still applies. Just because an ending is "not canon" doesn't mean the character can't perform the feat in the canon ending.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also, Sedriss fighting Dark Empire Luke is inconsistent in itself, as Sidious is shown in the story to be utterly godlike and untouchable by everything. If his disciple was as strong as him, she could just overthrow him.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

About 3)
Palpatine had an empire to install and was busy with an emergency meeting of the senate regarding this. The political wheels were busy being turned by his hand. So of course he had to leave the temple massacre in Vader's hands while this all was going down.

Force Unleashed is canon within the Legends continuity. They have novelizations whose events are considered canon within Legends. Sidious does quickly obliterate Galen Marek with his Force lightning.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

4. No, he's considerably inferior if they literally turn invisible to him.

True. Anakin could not keep up with Windu and Palpatine at all. They were merely a blur to him at best.

 

[Js250476]

Iirc I think the Rots Novelization even said Palpatine was a complete blur to Anakin at one point

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Iirc I think the Rots Novelization even said Palpatine was a complete blur to Anakin at one point

Yeah, the Matthew Stover novelization of ROTS. Anakin describes Windu and Palpatine as complete blurs who looked to be fading in and out of existence.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

1) Sedriss is a male, and strongest after means "2nd strongest", and it's not chronological, the Emperor had Sedriss under his wing before Vader's death.

2) The fact that he still survived an outraged Sidious' full power (He didn't die from injuries or Palpatine's lightning, it was because his respirator broke, sufficating him) does lie consistent with him being above a guy who fought with Luke Skywalker in Dark Empire and whom was very likely the strongest character there after Luke and Palpatine.

3) So what is it then, pis?

4) Considerable doesn't mean several tiers down. Also worth noting is that Dooku (who's weaker than Vader)'s lightning was deflected by Yoda "far from easily"

5) It's just taking a look at Palpatine's actions here.

"Everyone worth a damn in the Old Republic scales to him [Vader]"

No they don't. The only characters that scale to him or surpass him are Dooku, Kenobi, Yoda, Windu and possibly the likes of Maul, Fisto, Shaak Ti and Plo Koon

"Nothing indicates that Dark Side Ending Starkiller is stronger than Light Side Ending Starkiller, so it still applies."

It's still not a canon ending, therefore is not relevant.

"Also, Sedriss fighting Dark Empire Luke is inconsistent in itself, as Sidious is shown in the story to be utterly godlike and untouchable by everything. If his disciple was as strong as him, she could just overthrow him."

Sedriss is again, male.

While that is true, Leia isn't much a boost to Luke and when Leia boosted him, Luke Skywalker made a straight-up fool out of the Emperor. The "fight" is like 3 panels long. Also, Han Solo killed Palpatine. He's clearly not some god to everyone else, even if he is individually the strongest character in the comic.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

About 3)
Palpatine had an empire to install and was busy with an emergency meeting of the senate regarding this. The political wheels were busy being turned by his hand. So of course he had to leave the temple massacre in Vader's hands while this all was going down.
Force Unleashed is canon within the Legends continuity. They have novelizations whose events are considered canon within Legends. Sidious does quickly obliterate Galen Marek with his Force lightning.

1) He wasn't at a meeting. He makes this after Vader massacres everyone in the temple and is at Mustafar. He very much could've gone with Vader.

2) I know. Sorry, should've specified. The dark side ending isn't canon.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I'm not saying Sedriss is Palpatine's equal, he's not. But him fighting Luke (and having some fairly impressive feats all his own) does show he's not just some mook like Palpatine's prospects in the Disney canon.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Oh right. Order 66. Guess I got some things mixed up. Well he still had to carry that out, then convene a senate emergency meeting.

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. Again, if Sedriss scales to Dark Empire Luke, he could just overthrow the Emperor.

2. "Survived". Yeah, no.

3. It's nothing to take note of.

4. Dooku definitely doesn't scale to Yoda, and being as fast as Mace and Sidious doesn't mean he scales to them.

5. Bruh, that's not the Old Republic. Old Republic is characters like Revan.

Yes it is very much relevant. Dark Side Starkiller is no stronger than Light Side, so Light Side still has the capacity to kill Vader, he just didn't.

Have you even read the quotes in Dark Empire? They treat Sidious as an absurdly powerful threat who needs the combined power of every Jedi who ever lived to be contained in the Force.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

No he didn't. Order 66 takes place at least a couple of hours before the senate meeting in which Palpatine destroys the Republic, since Yoda and Kenobi got to Coruscant during this time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Dooku isn't as fast as Mace and Sidious.

Anakin was 100% incapable of following Mace and Sidious' fighting and he is faster than Dooku.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

1) He doesn't completely. Also Luke is weaker than Palpatine normally anyway.

2) He did survive after it. His respirator was just destroyed during Palpatine barrage, along with numerous organ supplement.s

3) Okay then.

4) He does incompletely. Dooku is stated to be equal (and in some instances, superior to) to Mace Windu. And I don't believe that Windu got trillions of times stronger during the Clone Wars. Also worth noting is that he fought semi-even with Vader on Vjun, albeit that's a dark side nexus.

5) Forgot that era for a second, sorry.

Using non canon endings isn't allowed when discussing revisions though? Non canon things for other verses aren't considered to my knowledge, even if the character acts more or less the same.

I have, and again, Sidious has a "likely higher" rating. Luke Skywalker wouldn't have been able to defeat him without an amp, and when he got it. And that's possibly even hyperbole given that he gets dragged to the depths of the force at the end by Empatojays Brand, not the Republic Era Jedi council or similar.

 

[The_Everlasting]

1. It's still grossly inconsistent.

2. And again, Luke got absolutely destroyed by a casual Sidious's Force Lightning.

4. Dooku definitely doesn't scale to Mace.

You're missing the point. Light Side Starkiller is still capable of doing the feats Dark Side Starkiller did, since he didn't get any boost.

"And that's possibly even hyperbole given that he gets dragged to the depths of the force at the end by Empatojays Brand, not the Republic Era Jedi council or similar."

What?

 

[Schnee_One]

2. If I downright one shot you without even putting so much as a penny of effort into it, you don't scale to me, even if he did, that'd be a huge outlier

 

[BruceTheBatman]

1) Luke himself is inconsistent, admittedly.

2) He actually wasn't that injured. He was tortured but he wasn't seriously harmed. He would've been killed in the long run yeah, but that is worth taking into consideration.

4) Yes, he absolutely does. He fought Mace in the Clone Wars (a comic shows them fighting on even ground, and Dooku even seems to have the upper hand, as he's the only one in the comic to get a decent hit in), and every source I've found shows that when Dooku was in the order that he was the only one who could match a serious Windu besides Yoda.

But it's still not canon, so why are we talking about it?

"What?"

At the end of Dark Empire, Han Solo kills Palpatine's last body, and Brand intercepts his spirit before Palpatine can posess Anakin Solo and drags him to the depths. It's only after does every jedi intervene and trap him permanently.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

2. If I downright one shot you without even putting so much as a penny of effort into it, you don't scale to me, even if he did, that'd be a huge outlier

I would also like to point out that Legends Dooku & Maul are only slightly less powerful than Vader. And Palpatine can ragdoll both of them very casually.

 

[Js250476]

Yeah Vader fought a clone of Maul once and I think something involving Dooku but don't remember the specifics

 

[BruceTheBatman]

2. If I downright one shot you without even putting so much as a penny of effort into it, you don't scale to me, even if he did, that'd be a huge outlier

Large Star Level is an extremely wide tier.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I would also like to point out that Legends Dooku & Maul are only slightly less powerful than Vader. And Palpatine can ragdoll both of them very casually.

Dooku was off-guard when he was choked. Do you think during that episode of TCW where Palpatine chokes Dooku that he was expecting to be attacked in such a manner?

 

[Schnee_One]

1,560x, I'm well aware, and that means nothing.

Vader doesn't scale because he performed an outlier durability feat that's performed by someone who was merely torturing him and not trying to kill him.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

We say he withstodd Sidious' full power however. Vader would've been disintegrated if he didn't have dura at least modestly comparable to Sidious' power.

 

[Schnee_One]

He did not, barely trying does not translate to full power.

Also, it's perfectly in character for Sidious to torture someone, so it makes sense he held back to torture him to death.