Archaon (Warhammer Fantasy), possible downgrades, removals, etc.

[YuuxGod97]

Archaons Profile

Okay, before I get y’all into it, I would like to say this is my first actually attempt at getting something changed. So I apologize if the rhetoric is bad, or if the set up is challenging to read.



Suggestion 1;

Archaon is given the Regeneration Key, ‘Mid Low,’ which is;

The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, such as severe burns or deep injuries.

For these reasons.



I believe this to be taken too strongly, for the reason in Chapter XI, after Archaon saves Giselle from Bhorgl. She later finds him in his tent, shirtless.



“The ability to heal wounds that would normally leave large scars, or severe burns...” While Archaons body is detailed to be covered in a patchwork of scars, and cauterization attempts, also if necessary I can even find the scan where Dagobert is stitching up Archaons wounds.

I believe his healing should be ‘Low,’ what would take us weeks, or months to heal, may only take him a week, to a couple weeks. He is still left with severe scarring, and contusions, burns from cauterization, etc.

————

Suggestion 2;

Next, he is given Self-Sustenance Types 2 & 3, which is not needing sleep/rest, or food/drink.

For this Keyed reason



I believe this is blatantly shown as untrue in the other chapters, here.



————

Suggestion 3; In this case I would suggest we remove this Key altogether, as we already have “Biological Absorption via Armor of Morkar.”



Archaon himself, does not have a Resistance to Biological Mutation/Transmutation.

He also has “Resistence to Biological Mutation/Transmutation” via this feat



Though this isn’t an ability of his inherently. He only gains this inside the Armor of Morkar, as shown here. As you can see in this link, prior to the Armor, Archaon was very susceptible to above mentioned “resistance” clams.

https://imgur.com/a/ZRp3faR

————

Suggestion 4;

Removal of “Resistance to Pain Manipulation,” which they got from this “feat.” Saying he “endured” it.

https://imgur.com/PAWahhd

When in fact he was being I guess “possessed.” Or in Archaons words, “Thing that corrupts my flesh, and pollutes my soul.”

Archaon couldn’t stop this, he didn’t endure it via not feeling pain, he suffered through it because he couldn’t stop it.

https://imgur.com/a/SY9rQBB

————

Suggestion 5;

I do not believe he should have Immortality via Regeneration, as he can’t regenerate from wounds that would kill him.

He simply dies, and is brought back via Fate Manipulation by Be’Lekor.

https://imgur.com/a/iMrNGYb





That is all of my suggestions, I’ve never done this before officially, so play nice with me.

I’m open to discussing these ideas, these are just things I noticed when I quickly re-read these keys over, and cross referenced with my Novel, and RT I’m making.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Type 3 immortality can be Low regen, it stays. but at a glance this is fine

 

[YuuxGod97]

Type 3 immortality can be Low regen, it stays

I guess that’s arguable, I just don’t quite agree since Type 3 is explained as.

“Characters with this type of immortality can simply regenerate from wounds that would normally be lethal, though its effectiveness depends on the degree of the regeneration.”

“From wounds that would normally be lethal...”

Archaon doesn’t do that, he’s died many times throughout the series from your typical everyday fatal wounds.
I could just be taking the Type 3 explanation too seriously though, I don’t know.

 

[YuuxGod97]

He simply dies, and is brought back via Fate Manipulation by Be’Lekor.

Wanted to just outright prove this too, just in case we have any less informed on the series people who get interested in the thread.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I guess that’s arguable, I just don’t quite agree since Type 3 is explained as.

“Characters with this type of immortality can simply regenerate from wounds that would normally be lethal, though its effectiveness depends on the degree of the regeneration.”

“From wounds that would normally be lethal...”

Archaon doesn’t do that, he’s died many times throughout the series from your typical everyday fatal wounds.
I could just be taking the Type 3 explanation too seriously though, I don’t know.

Its somewhat misleading i agree, but I've seen characters with low regen have type 3 immortality

 

[YuuxGod97]

I've seen characters with low regen have type 3 immortality

Eh, I dislike the idea of appealing to common practice, I just don’t think it fits Archaon at all.
I completely understand Types 4 & 8,

this

proves it without a doubt.

I’m not even entirely happy with Type 2, but it’s last excerpt, “This type of immortality can have different levels of effectiveness and can be bypassed, for example, by causing extremely severe wounds or the complete destruction of the body or specific parts of it, such as the head, etc.”
Makes sense, because I do agree that Archaon can take a beating, and continue surviving, but a solid head shot, heart shot, throat cut, etc would kill him. Only for Types 4 & 8 to bring him back, so that’s why I’m almost completely against Type 3.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Makes sense, because I do agree that Archaon can take a beating, and continue surviving, but a solid head shot, heart shot, throat cut, etc would kill him.

You realize those fall under Low-Mid to Mid Regen right? Above what Archaon already has? His regen is to regenerate wounds that cause large scars.

 

[SomaKing13]

For the 3rd suggestion, he would keep both biological absorption resistance and the resistances to Biological mutation/ transmutation, as while they are given to him via the armour, it also explicitly mentions that the transmuting flames move through the eye sockets and slits of his armour yet still don't effect him, showing that the resistance is passed onto him while he is wearing it, so there is no need to remove either, especially since only he can remove the armour once it is donned anyway.

Also once he dons the armour he does become directly self-sustaining, as once a warrior of chaos gains their armour and becomes a warrior of chaos, let alone a chaos champion, they are directly stated as "A Chaos Warrior has no need of food, drink or sleep, for he is nourished by the carnage that he wreaks." i will also say that just because they don't have to fall asleep or eat or drink, doesn't mean they don't want to, it's the same for vampires and other chaos champions, who all have Self-sustance like this, Sigvald for instance never sleeps but holds massive feasts where he over indulges himself just because he likes good food, same with vampires, who can literally be locked away for centuries without drinking blood and just become more savage monstrous versions of themselves, they don't need it to actually survive, they are just...addicts basically, with physical changes in their body as withdrawal symptoms.


As for regen, I WOULD agree with you in terms of it being directly Low based on leaving scars and the likes, but at the same time, that is kind of misleading when certain characters with WAAAY higher regeneration can still have scars even if they have major healing factors, like Darth Sion from KOTOR, who has anywhere from Low-Mid, possibly High-Mid, yet every wound he has ever taken is scarred into his body. So not all Regeneration follow the same rules, it could also be argued that you could even just simply scale him to Malekith's regeneration which is High-Low via magic, yet he is still covered head to toe in burn scars.

As for Immortality, can't really argue here or there for Immortality type 3, BUT he absolutely has type 2 without a doubt, by the time he was in his final trials, he was powerful enough to be reduced to just his warpstone skeleton and kept moving on, passing his Nurglish Test, and even if he didn't have that, basic chaos warriors can survive insane damage before falling (like one being bitten in half by a dragon, and still fighting before finally getting killed.

 

[DaReaperMan]

To be fair Burns can require Low-Mid regen based on how badly the nerves were hit

 

[YuuxGod97]

Low based on leaving scars and the likes, but at the same time, that is kind of misleading when certain characters with WAAAY higher regeneration can still have scars even if they have major healing factors

That’s not the only argument there, his wounds heal, but only “at an unnatural pace.”
There’s no way Archaon has anything above Low Regeneration.

Though, I will say this, I think something that would make all these applicable is a Key Section for him.
He goes through so many different transformations, it has to be borderline necessary.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Eh, we need to research AOS before we do dat

 

[YuuxGod97]

Also once he dons the armour he does become directly self-sustaining, as once a warrior of chaos gains their armour and becomes a warrior of chaos, let alone a chaos champion, they are directly stated as "A Chaos Warrior has no need of food, drink or sleep

Yea you’re right in this part, though he still fell asleep at times after it, I doubt I could argue it being a necessity. I had gotten confused by the times he fell asleep, and didn’t stop to think maybe he was just sleeping...to sleep. Haha.

 

[YuuxGod97]

I slashed out suggestion 2, as not to confuse any new comers.

Could we discuss the rest of the points one by one? I get confused easily when a lot of text is brought up at once, my brain can’t focus on a singular topic like that?

 

[YuuxGod97]

research AOS

I’ll probably buy the 6 Books I do see for Age of Sigmar then, get that journey going.

 

[Breakdown]

Agree with OP, this makes sense.

 

[SomaKing13]

for Pain resistance, enduring and suffering through them can still count as resisting it, as he has countless other feats of utterly powering through terrible pain, via pre-any kind of empowerment leaving him badly mangled and alone in a forest near the beginning of the novel, where he acrued numerous injuries, including a shard of warpstone imbedded in his eyesocket, and being stabbed/slashed with his own sword and suffering from fever and infection and intense pain, powering through with pure willpower( and then proceeds to go through one of his original deaths, of having the shard removed from his socket, which while blindingly painful also killed him in the process, and while fate manipulation is used to bring him back in those earlier moments, it is noted later on in the story that he partially remembers every death

 

[YuuxGod97]

So, at the moment, these suggestions still stand;
Suggestion 1 - At Least Low, High-Low with Magic.
Suggestion 3 - I’m going to explain why, so be patient please.
Suggestion 4 - Enduring Pain, isn’t a resistance to Pain Manipulation. He barely endured it, and he sure as heck didn’t resist the pain.
Suggestion 5 - I still stand by this, even with Magic his regeneration would only be High-Low. Counting in the ways he’s been exposed to death before, and died from such ways.

Let’s discuss these one by one, please.
Starting with Suggestion 3, since it’s one I know Soma is arguing against pretty resolutely. I know it says, “filled his socket-slits...”



But it then goes on to say, “danced across the surface of his plate...felt no scorching warmth through the armor...Morkars Armor was impervious to the dragons wrath”
I mean, to me it really doesn’t seem like a Biological Immunity to it, but just an ability granted by the Armor, from the Armor. Which we have keyed separately already.

 

[SomaKing13]

that would still resistance to it, as the armour is keeping from being affected is what i mean, it transfers it's protections to his body while he's wearing the armour, the only way you could argue him losing that resistance is if he isn't wearing it, which is what he does one hundred percent of the time, and you can't just TK/teleport him out of the armour because of Aethyr resistances, as once chaos armour is worn only the wearer can remove it, and while he does remove the helmet at some moments, he never removed the full set, especially not once he gets the crown of domination and becomes the Everchosen.

 

[YuuxGod97]

that would still resistance to it, as the armour is keeping from being affected is what i mean, it transfers it's protections to his body while he's wearing the armour, the only way you could argue him losing that resistance is if he isn't wearing it, which is what he does one hundred percent of the time, and you can't just TK/teleport him out of the armour because of Aethyr resistances, as once chaos armour is worn only the wearer can remove it, and while he does remove the helmet at some moments, he never removed the full set, especially not once he gets the crown of domination and becomes the Everchosen.

It still wouldn’t be a “biological resistance” to it though, it’s a resistance given by the Armor solely.

 

[YuuxGod97]

The Armor of Morkar grants a sort of Reality Warping around it, protecting it via altering reality, bending swords raised against him, deflecting projectiles and robbing strikes/magic of their power.
Which would even further back my claim that he simply doesn’t have a Biological Resistance to it, just an equipment one. I understand you’re saying it’s impossible to remove, but that doesn’t automatically make it Biological Resistance, it would still be via equipment.

 

[YuuxGod97]

Big almost half hour bump.

 

[YuuxGod97]

Big bump

 

[YuuxGod97]

Well, there’s been no counter arguments.

 

[azontr]

While I don't know much about the Warhammer universe, I can still give my general opinion.

1: Seems a little clunky, as reaper whatever his name is said, type 3 immortality also equates to regeneration.
3: I'm assuming you're saying we give him a key with the armor, if I interpreted it wrong let me know, but it seems fine as well.
4: I'm pretty sure being tolerant to extreme pain(like an enormous **** ton of other characters) doesn't equate to immediate resistance pain manipulation so this is also fine.
5: Idfk.

 

[YuuxGod97]

I'm assuming you're saying we give him a key with the armor,

Yes, I agree he has this;
Biological Absorption (The Armour of Morkar protected Archaon from being assimilated by the Chaos Dragon Flamefang)
I don’t believe he ALSO needs this on his abilities, for reasons I’ve given above;
Biological Mutation/Transmutation (Archaon resisted the breath of Flamefang which mutates all it affects)

4: I'm pretty sure being tolerant to extreme pain(like an enormous **** ton of other characters) doesn't equate to immediate resistance pain manipulation so this is also fine.

Thank you

5: Idfk.

Understandable

 

[azontr]

I'd actually like to get a bit more knowledgable on the Warhammer universe, so if you're willing to educate me, you can contact me on my discord.

 

[YuuxGod97]

I'd actually like to get a bit more knowledgable on the Warhammer universe, so if you're willing to educate me, you can contact me on my discord.

I only know about Warhammer Fantasy, but sure. My tag is YuuxGod97#1666

 

[azontr]

I only know about Warhammer Fantasy, but sure. My tag is YuuxGod97#1666

Good enough for me man, thanks. Just letting you know though, I know literally nothing about it.

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far and the arguments for them?

@Blackcurrant91 @Holyhotsauce @Soma_King @Offin @Edenstar @Naitodesu @Sergeant_Hypocrite

What do you think about this?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Right now we are going to debate the point one by one, to make it so that the OP won't be confused, debating should begin in some hours when Soma and Blackcurrant are online

 

[SomaKing13]

1. Regen as (Low, high-Low with magic) is good for me.

3. Just for clarification, I don't think we should remove Biological Mutation/Transmutation from his thing, even if the power is fully from his armour, it's still a resistance he has because of wearing the armour, we would just clarify on the power just like absorption that it's "via the Armour of Morkar" since it's still an explicit resistance feat, especially since it isn't the same power as Biological Absorption, so it's not a redundant or unnecessary resistance either. It'd just be for that key and beyond. Obviously Diedrick wouldn't get that.

4. the Pain one is debatable for only because of the other feats of pain he has powered through and continued through, but at the same time, it's not a big enough deal for me to like ACTUALLY put up a fight about either since an argument can be made for both sides.

5. Completely neutral on this, seems like a lot of back and forth from people for it, both sides make a decent point.

 

[YuuxGod97]

we would just clarify on the power just like absorption that it's "via the Armour of Morkar" since it's still an explicit resistance feat, especially since it isn't the same power as Biological Absorption, so it's not a redundant or unnecessary resistance either. It'd just be for that key and beyond. Obviously Diedrick wouldn't get that.

That’s fine with me if we specify it’s from the Armor then.

Regen as (Low, high-Low with magic) is good for me.

Thank you

the Pain one is debatable for only because of the other feats of pain he has powered through and continued through, but at the same time,

I just personally don’t equate being forced to take it, without the ability to stop it and being in extreme unexplainable pain during it as a resistance to pain manipulation.

Completely neutral on this,

Understandable

 

[Zencha9]

I don't that type of stuff like enduring insane amount of damage should be resistance per say it will just high pain tolerance
Anyways the rest seems fine

 

[SomaKing13]

i can accept that then, high pain tolerance makes sense to me

 

[Sergeant_Hypocrite]

1: I'm fine with Low, High-Low w/ magic regens.

3: I think the resistances should be kept. As Soma stated, he gains the abilities since he's wearing it, be it should be clarified that it comes from the armor.

4: It seems like to me that it is High Pain Tolerance, but on an immensely absurd level. Having a resistance to Pain Manipulation seems possible for Archaon, but somewhat more far-fetched than HPT (I am open to High Pain Tolerance, possibly Resistance to Pain Manipulation). Even if Type 3 Immortality is removed (I have no idea what types of regen should classify as Type 3 Immortality), he absolutely should still receive Type 2 Immortality.

5: Types 4 and 8 Immortality are already on Archaon's profile as Chaos Gods resurrect champions lesser than Archaon, so I'm clueless as to whether this would be only Fate Manipulation just for Archaon or another layer of Type 4 and 8 Immortality.

 

[YuuxGod97]

1: I'm fine with Low, High-Low w/ magic regens.

Alright, I’m fairly sure this is unanimously accepted then.

3: I think the resistances should be kept. As Soma stated, he gains the abilities since he's wearing it, be it should be clarified that it comes from the armor.

Yea, so long as we can specify it comes only due to his Armor, I’m fine with that.

I am open to High Pain Tolerance, possibly Resistance to Pain Manipulation

See, I am 100% down for HPT, because it does have multiple counts of supporting evidence. A Resistance to Pain Manipulation though, I am just 100% against, he’s never just outright not been effected by Pain. He’s had, countless probably, instances where he’s described his pain as unbearable. Where he was effected by it so greatly, it would complicate shit.

Even if Type 3 Immortality is removed (I have no idea what types of regen should classify as Type 3 Immortality), he absolutely should still receive Type 2 Immortality

My argument against Type 3 is that fatal wounds are just fatal to him, aside from when he got to the point he was avoiding death to a high efficiency rate. (In book he mentioned never wanting to die again, just forgot exactly where.) He would be fatally wounded, die, and Be’Lekor would manipulate Fate, and his Soul to not allow it.

Types 4 and 8 Immortality are already on Archaon's profile as Chaos Gods resurrect champions lesser than Archaon

I’m kinda starting to grow iffy on Type 4, only due to how they phrase the requirements. ( 4: Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves at a later point in time.)
He’s never reincarnated as far as I know, or resurrected at a later time, but the latter is harder to argue against due to us not really having any time tables on how long he’s stayed dead. It’s usually just kinda ignored that he died, and the story progressed as if he didn’t.
Type 8 is pretty cut ‘n’ dry though, as long as Be’Lekor allows it, Archaon simply won’t die. Be’Lekor manipulated Fate, and his Soul to keep this from happening. If I am remembering right, it’s even said at one point he simply won’t allow Archaon to die.

 

[YuuxGod97]

I’m kinda starting to grow iffy on Type 4, only due to how they phrase the requirements. ( 4: Immortality via reincarnation or resurrection: Characters that are immortal because, whenever they die, they will simply reincarnate within another body or resurrect themselves

Also, he isn’t the one resurrecting himself, or bringing himself back to life.
Sooooooooo, I don’t know, doesn’t sound right the more I think about it.

 

[SomaKing13]

actually his type 4/8 combo would change hands, his first key (whenever we get it up) would be type 4/8 via Be'lakor, where Bel'akor just rewrites Diedrick's fate so that it turns out in the perfect favourable route towards making Diedrick the greatest Chaos Champion to ever exist (this seems nigh instant, as he basically just resets that scenario in a better way and then they move on), and in his second key as Archaon, it would have been taken over by the Chaos Gods as they have ressurected numerous faar lesser champions repeatedly, even when they didn't really need to (like Valkia, Skaar, Malus, Vilitch, the changeling and the likes) it's just probably not combat applicable for the most part so it just wouldn't be relevant in most fights, similar to how Chaos Gods in 40k resurrect or save their champions all the time, just not in a relevant time frame.

Edit: Also just for clarification, Type 4 resurrections doesn't necessarily have to be through self use, just as long as it specifically brings them back to life)

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yeah you can have type 4 via your type 8 such as Archaon does. HPT effectively provides minor resistances to pain manipulation so it seems like semantics. Resistance doesn't necessarily imply immunity.

 

[YuuxGod97]

Resistance doesn't necessarily imply immunity.

Resistance by definition is not being affected by something, Archaon is affected by pain. He doesn’t have a Resistance to Pain Manipulation, tolerance is the ability to tolerate something, be it whatever.
He can tolerate pain, to a high degree. He is not resistant to it though, it still affects him, it still hurts him.

Yeah you can have type 4 via your type 8 such as Archaon does.

I’m not really too worried about Type 4, I’m more so interested in Type 3 being removed.

I’m really adamant on his Resistance to Pain Manipulation being removed, Archaon still feels as much pain as a normal person, but is simply able to fight through it much better. He can keep fighting with several injuries and stay concious far longer with said injuries then a normal man, but he still feels it 100% the same as we do.
He has a very high tolerance for pain, but not a resistance to it.