-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Arceus Omniscient?
- Thread starter HokageKirby161
- Start date
- Status
- 3,077
- 121
We are not listing a statistic using a card as logia. Videogames, anime and manga are the only media we use.
Nigh-omniscient Arceus and Uxie is...likely though there should probably be a note saying it's not combat applicable or even practically applicable as Arceus is canonically naive.
Nigh-omniscient Arceus and Uxie is...likely though there should probably be a note saying it's not combat applicable or even practically applicable as Arceus is canonically naive.
- 1,099
- 47
I agree with Mighty.
- 388
- 4
Where is it stated in the canon he's naive? And i hardly believe that as even low level pokemon like Alakazam have high levels of intelligence
- 3,077
- 121
Intelligence, is not something you can scale based on power and in every media, Arceus has proven to be overly trusting to humans and inevitably mislead by them even in the games as of the most recent Pokemon Rangers.
- 33,408
- 8,429
Arceus is a naive deity. He trusts humans far too much. This is what caused that betrayal PIS in the movie. He lets his guard down.
- 388
- 4
Isnt the pokemon rangers game deemed non canon? And if thats the case then that would mean his own creations, such as Uxie, would also be deemed that way, yet their very own entries debunk that. Its the fact that since Arceus created the concept of knowledge, him being "naive" towards humans should only be a one time thing or just pure PIS over and over.
The manga doesnt specifically state Arceus trusted humans it only says that it's plates were stolen by them. The reason could be anything someone could think of, with Arceus overly trusting humans only beng one of the possibilites.
The movie shouldnt be used as a reference because of said PIS. It's weird to say he can let his guard down to mere humans in an ancient old age yet in a newer and far more advanced generation, Arceus wouldnt be fooled by anyone such as Sheena, Ash, etc in the slightest. Besides, when he let his guard down that was incomplete Arceus who lost a pretty siginifigant part of its capabilities. Im 100% certain a complete Arceus wouldnt be capable of being fooled at all. They even imply a difference in knowledge between the 2 states.
In fact, how would Game Arceus be fooled by humans if in the game canon he sleeps eternally in his realm and lets the Trio run everything in the pokemon verse? The only reason why Game Arceus himself even gets involved with humans is so that the player is able to catch it (in an event).
If anything, i can accept an incomplete Arceus being naive for obvious reasoning but not a complete Arceus.
The manga doesnt specifically state Arceus trusted humans it only says that it's plates were stolen by them. The reason could be anything someone could think of, with Arceus overly trusting humans only beng one of the possibilites.
The movie shouldnt be used as a reference because of said PIS. It's weird to say he can let his guard down to mere humans in an ancient old age yet in a newer and far more advanced generation, Arceus wouldnt be fooled by anyone such as Sheena, Ash, etc in the slightest. Besides, when he let his guard down that was incomplete Arceus who lost a pretty siginifigant part of its capabilities. Im 100% certain a complete Arceus wouldnt be capable of being fooled at all. They even imply a difference in knowledge between the 2 states.
In fact, how would Game Arceus be fooled by humans if in the game canon he sleeps eternally in his realm and lets the Trio run everything in the pokemon verse? The only reason why Game Arceus himself even gets involved with humans is so that the player is able to catch it (in an event).
If anything, i can accept an incomplete Arceus being naive for obvious reasoning but not a complete Arceus.
- 3,077
- 121
Isnt the pokemon rangers game deemed non canon?
No, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is, which takes place in a different Universe.
And if thats the case then that would mean his own creations, such as Uxie, would also be deemed that way, yet their very own entries debunk that.
The very fact they can disobey Arceus is evidence that, though they are extensions of it, they are their very own entities.
Its the fact that since Arceus created the concept of knowledge, him being "naive" towards humans should only be a one time thing or just pure PIS over and over.
Usually I'd agree, except…
It is a one time thing in different media, because they don't intersect timeline wise. Doesn't change the fact that Arceus's personality flaws are consistent throughout the franchise, unlike the meteor feat (which is contradicted by it defeating Creation Trio) and…well… the meteor feat (it causing Universe to collide and shake).
There's a difference between PIS and characterisation.
The manga doesnt specifically state Arceus trusted humans it only says that it's plates were stolen by them. The reason could be anything someone could think of, with Arceus overly trusting humans only being one of the possibilites.
Then let us look at the facts given to us in the manga. Arceus aided humanity in their everyday lives. Arceus was betrayed by humanity. There is no other connotation to be made here. "He let his guard down."
The movie shouldnt be used as a reference because of said PIS. It's weird to say he can let his guard down to mere humans in an ancient old age yet in a newer and far more advanced generation, Arceus wouldnt be fooled by anyone such as Sheena, Ash, etc in the slightest.
Naivety has many connotations. Stupidity is not what anyone is debating here. Why would Arceus make the same mistake twice? Especially as it just woke up after centuries? The ancient past would literally be yesterday to it. Not that the past matters considering even lesser entities present in the verse are above space-time.
There is literally no reason for it to trust the beings it now hates, not to mention Arceus already was shown to know whether or not the Jewel is authentic in the past, which is not surprising as it's a part of it.
Besides, when he let his guard down that was incomplete Arceus who lost a pretty siginifigant part of its capabilities.
Arceus let its guard down long before it was attacked.
Complete Arceus gave its plates freely to Damos, knowing that it would decrease its lifespan, and trusted him to return when the time was right despite knowing that the land would revert to its previous barren state once the Jewel is returned which would destroy Damos's dream and theoretically cause many of his people to starve. Forget letting your guard down. This is naivety: poor Judgement plain and simple.
Im 100% certain a complete Arceus wouldnt be capable of being fooled at all.
He would, by his own doing.
In fact, how would Game Arceus be fooled by humans if in the game canon he sleeps eternally in his realm and lets the Trio run everything in the pokemon verse? The only reason why Game Arceus himself even gets involved with humans is so that the player is able to catch it (in an event).
Except it was explicitly foretold on one of its plates in game to return it to Arceus. This is what the entire movie, and the Pokemon Rangers event, was based on.
No, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is, which takes place in a different Universe.
And if thats the case then that would mean his own creations, such as Uxie, would also be deemed that way, yet their very own entries debunk that.
The very fact they can disobey Arceus is evidence that, though they are extensions of it, they are their very own entities.
Its the fact that since Arceus created the concept of knowledge, him being "naive" towards humans should only be a one time thing or just pure PIS over and over.
Usually I'd agree, except…
It is a one time thing in different media, because they don't intersect timeline wise. Doesn't change the fact that Arceus's personality flaws are consistent throughout the franchise, unlike the meteor feat (which is contradicted by it defeating Creation Trio) and…well… the meteor feat (it causing Universe to collide and shake).
There's a difference between PIS and characterisation.
The manga doesnt specifically state Arceus trusted humans it only says that it's plates were stolen by them. The reason could be anything someone could think of, with Arceus overly trusting humans only being one of the possibilites.
Then let us look at the facts given to us in the manga. Arceus aided humanity in their everyday lives. Arceus was betrayed by humanity. There is no other connotation to be made here. "He let his guard down."
The movie shouldnt be used as a reference because of said PIS. It's weird to say he can let his guard down to mere humans in an ancient old age yet in a newer and far more advanced generation, Arceus wouldnt be fooled by anyone such as Sheena, Ash, etc in the slightest.
Naivety has many connotations. Stupidity is not what anyone is debating here. Why would Arceus make the same mistake twice? Especially as it just woke up after centuries? The ancient past would literally be yesterday to it. Not that the past matters considering even lesser entities present in the verse are above space-time.
There is literally no reason for it to trust the beings it now hates, not to mention Arceus already was shown to know whether or not the Jewel is authentic in the past, which is not surprising as it's a part of it.
Besides, when he let his guard down that was incomplete Arceus who lost a pretty siginifigant part of its capabilities.
Arceus let its guard down long before it was attacked.
Complete Arceus gave its plates freely to Damos, knowing that it would decrease its lifespan, and trusted him to return when the time was right despite knowing that the land would revert to its previous barren state once the Jewel is returned which would destroy Damos's dream and theoretically cause many of his people to starve. Forget letting your guard down. This is naivety: poor Judgement plain and simple.
Im 100% certain a complete Arceus wouldnt be capable of being fooled at all.
He would, by his own doing.
In fact, how would Game Arceus be fooled by humans if in the game canon he sleeps eternally in his realm and lets the Trio run everything in the pokemon verse? The only reason why Game Arceus himself even gets involved with humans is so that the player is able to catch it (in an event).
Except it was explicitly foretold on one of its plates in game to return it to Arceus. This is what the entire movie, and the Pokemon Rangers event, was based on.
- 388
- 4
No, Pokemon Mystery Dungeon is, which takes place in a different Universe.
Kk about the ranger comment
The very fact they can disobey Arceus is evidence that, though they are extensions of it, they are their very own entities.
Actually that's not true. When Arceus got its plates back at the end of the movie Dialga, Palkia and Giratina went back to being under it's rule. Its only when it was incomplete that they went against it to try and stop him.
Usually I'd agree, except…
It is a one time thing in different media, because they don't intersect timeline wise. Doesn't change the fact that Arceus's personality flaws are consistent throughout the franchise, unlike the meteor feat (which is contradicted by it defeating Creation Trio) and…well… the meteor feat (it causing Universe to collide and shake).
There's a difference between PIS and characterisation.
They are consistent because of him having a perfectly good reason to BE trusting in humans. If Arceus was trusting in humans for no reason at all, i would agree with you. But in this case, he has had a very valid reason to BE trusting in people in those media, especially the jewel of life movie.
Then let us look at the facts given to us in the manga. Arceus aided humanity in their everyday lives. Arceus was betrayed by humanity. There is no other connotation to be made here. "He let his guard down."
Forgive me because i havent actually read the full on manga that this took place but when is Arceus stated to aid humanity in their everyday lives? That makes no sense since Arceus is supposed to be in an eternal sleep from the game canon, which the said manga is being based off of. So either it is PIS or it is that manga's own version of Arceus lore that pertains only to that story. And even if what you say is true, there isnt anything wrong with Arceus wishing to help people if HE is the one who is choosing to do so. In fact, what would stop me from saying Arceus purposely let himself be fooled by mere humans just for the sake of the storyline? His low end showings get contradicted by the fact that he is able to rise above pokemon such as the Creation Trio which would imply he is on a much higher standing than anything else.
Naivety has many connotations. Stupidity is not what anyone is debating here. Why would Arceus make the same mistake twice? Especially as it just woke up after centuries? The ancient past would literally be yesterday to it. Not that the past matters considering even lesser entities present in the verse are above space-time.
There is literally no reason for it to trust the beings it now hates, not to mention Arceus already was shown to know whether or not the Jewel is authentic in the past, which is not surprising as it's a part of it.
I wouldnt say that. Remember Arceus may have been sleeping but he is still the very god of the pokemonverse, there is reason to say he could have been monitering the time passing by between Damos's betrayal and Ash's generation....you know....since.... Arceus would JUST SO HAPPEN to know when a single meteor would be harmful to just ONE planet out of the countless and unknown universes pokemon has, so why wouldn't he be able to see one generation be clearly diifferent then the other? As for the rest, there was also no reason for Arceus to assume that ALL humans were evil just because Damos (who was hypnotized by Marcus) was to it yet it happened. In addition, Sheena already stated to Arceus that she was Damos's descendant and that how she and the others knew what a terrible thing he did to Arceus and asked for forgiveness. She even attemtpted to present the jewel of life right in front of Arceus to regain it's trust. There should have been nothing to imply to Arceus that Sheena would make the same mistake a controlled Damos did when she already knew the events of what happend, knew how terrible it was and wished for make up for what he did, especially if half of the said setting where this was happening was reduced to rubble, impliyng Sheena would have no way to actually sneak attack or even lure Arceus in a trap if he already began to show how much of a threat he was to the people. Surely by Arceus's thinking he would have seen Sheena immeidately attack Arceus seeing as how she knew what happend and why it happened. The thought of Sheena even knowing about what happened and trying to make up for it should have been clear enough that she was no threat, as well as the other ppl who lived in the town.
Arceus let its guard down long before it was attacked.
Complete Arceus gave its plates freely to Damos, knowing that it would decrease its lifespan, and trusted him to return when the time was right despite knowing that the land would revert to its previous barren state once the Jewel is returned which would destroy Damos's dream and theoretically cause many of his people to starve. Forget letting your guard down. This is naivety: poor Judgement plain and simple.
No he didnt. It's common sense that he would go and listen to damos so he could gain the jewel back. Remember, the jewel of life is made from parts of Arceus that are crucial to its very survival so why would he do the opposite? If he suspected Damos was going to trick it from the start, then the events of the rest of the movie wouldn't have taken place at all. Besides, is it not proper for someone to propery give back something they borrowed from someone else? At least, thats what Arceus seemed to think at the time and there isnt anything wrong with thinking that. And he didnt "freely give them to him, he gave it to him to repay what Damos did during a PIS scene: saving his life. Perfectly good reason to trust in a human, especially if that human was the one who helped it. Also, there was no evidence that the land WOULD have gone back to a waste land Damos ASSUMED that it would. Sheena even states that Damos BELIEVED that and was scared from that possibility so he attacked arceus to keep the jewel for himself BASED off an assumption, which is even worse poor judgement. Damos wasnt even afraid of the land going back to dust, Marcus was, the same person who wanted nothing but power and being a tyrant. It's not Arceus's responsibility to keep one land safe it's there's. Other than Marcus, not one person during that time was scared to give back the jewel otherwise everyone would have gone against Arceus if the land really was going to die without the jewel.
Except it was explicitly foretold on one of its plates in game to return it to Arceus. This is what the entire movie, and the Pokemon Rangers event, was based o.
This is stated where?
Kk about the ranger comment
The very fact they can disobey Arceus is evidence that, though they are extensions of it, they are their very own entities.
Actually that's not true. When Arceus got its plates back at the end of the movie Dialga, Palkia and Giratina went back to being under it's rule. Its only when it was incomplete that they went against it to try and stop him.
Usually I'd agree, except…
It is a one time thing in different media, because they don't intersect timeline wise. Doesn't change the fact that Arceus's personality flaws are consistent throughout the franchise, unlike the meteor feat (which is contradicted by it defeating Creation Trio) and…well… the meteor feat (it causing Universe to collide and shake).
There's a difference between PIS and characterisation.
They are consistent because of him having a perfectly good reason to BE trusting in humans. If Arceus was trusting in humans for no reason at all, i would agree with you. But in this case, he has had a very valid reason to BE trusting in people in those media, especially the jewel of life movie.
Then let us look at the facts given to us in the manga. Arceus aided humanity in their everyday lives. Arceus was betrayed by humanity. There is no other connotation to be made here. "He let his guard down."
Forgive me because i havent actually read the full on manga that this took place but when is Arceus stated to aid humanity in their everyday lives? That makes no sense since Arceus is supposed to be in an eternal sleep from the game canon, which the said manga is being based off of. So either it is PIS or it is that manga's own version of Arceus lore that pertains only to that story. And even if what you say is true, there isnt anything wrong with Arceus wishing to help people if HE is the one who is choosing to do so. In fact, what would stop me from saying Arceus purposely let himself be fooled by mere humans just for the sake of the storyline? His low end showings get contradicted by the fact that he is able to rise above pokemon such as the Creation Trio which would imply he is on a much higher standing than anything else.
Naivety has many connotations. Stupidity is not what anyone is debating here. Why would Arceus make the same mistake twice? Especially as it just woke up after centuries? The ancient past would literally be yesterday to it. Not that the past matters considering even lesser entities present in the verse are above space-time.
There is literally no reason for it to trust the beings it now hates, not to mention Arceus already was shown to know whether or not the Jewel is authentic in the past, which is not surprising as it's a part of it.
I wouldnt say that. Remember Arceus may have been sleeping but he is still the very god of the pokemonverse, there is reason to say he could have been monitering the time passing by between Damos's betrayal and Ash's generation....you know....since.... Arceus would JUST SO HAPPEN to know when a single meteor would be harmful to just ONE planet out of the countless and unknown universes pokemon has, so why wouldn't he be able to see one generation be clearly diifferent then the other? As for the rest, there was also no reason for Arceus to assume that ALL humans were evil just because Damos (who was hypnotized by Marcus) was to it yet it happened. In addition, Sheena already stated to Arceus that she was Damos's descendant and that how she and the others knew what a terrible thing he did to Arceus and asked for forgiveness. She even attemtpted to present the jewel of life right in front of Arceus to regain it's trust. There should have been nothing to imply to Arceus that Sheena would make the same mistake a controlled Damos did when she already knew the events of what happend, knew how terrible it was and wished for make up for what he did, especially if half of the said setting where this was happening was reduced to rubble, impliyng Sheena would have no way to actually sneak attack or even lure Arceus in a trap if he already began to show how much of a threat he was to the people. Surely by Arceus's thinking he would have seen Sheena immeidately attack Arceus seeing as how she knew what happend and why it happened. The thought of Sheena even knowing about what happened and trying to make up for it should have been clear enough that she was no threat, as well as the other ppl who lived in the town.
Arceus let its guard down long before it was attacked.
Complete Arceus gave its plates freely to Damos, knowing that it would decrease its lifespan, and trusted him to return when the time was right despite knowing that the land would revert to its previous barren state once the Jewel is returned which would destroy Damos's dream and theoretically cause many of his people to starve. Forget letting your guard down. This is naivety: poor Judgement plain and simple.
No he didnt. It's common sense that he would go and listen to damos so he could gain the jewel back. Remember, the jewel of life is made from parts of Arceus that are crucial to its very survival so why would he do the opposite? If he suspected Damos was going to trick it from the start, then the events of the rest of the movie wouldn't have taken place at all. Besides, is it not proper for someone to propery give back something they borrowed from someone else? At least, thats what Arceus seemed to think at the time and there isnt anything wrong with thinking that. And he didnt "freely give them to him, he gave it to him to repay what Damos did during a PIS scene: saving his life. Perfectly good reason to trust in a human, especially if that human was the one who helped it. Also, there was no evidence that the land WOULD have gone back to a waste land Damos ASSUMED that it would. Sheena even states that Damos BELIEVED that and was scared from that possibility so he attacked arceus to keep the jewel for himself BASED off an assumption, which is even worse poor judgement. Damos wasnt even afraid of the land going back to dust, Marcus was, the same person who wanted nothing but power and being a tyrant. It's not Arceus's responsibility to keep one land safe it's there's. Other than Marcus, not one person during that time was scared to give back the jewel otherwise everyone would have gone against Arceus if the land really was going to die without the jewel.
Except it was explicitly foretold on one of its plates in game to return it to Arceus. This is what the entire movie, and the Pokemon Rangers event, was based o.
This is stated where?
- 3,077
- 121
Actually that's not true. When Arceus got its plates back at the end of the movie Dialga, Palkia and Giratina went back to being under it's rule. Its only when it was incomplete that they went against it to try and stop him.
No, they stopped because it wasn't trying to life wipe the entirety of the human species.
Arceus wouldn't feel it necessary to imprison Giratina if they weren't their own entities and this was before it ever lost its plates.
Note, I'm not saying Arceus doesn't control them because it does, obviously, nor do I disagree they are parts of it but I'm saying they are clearly depicted as individuals in an eldrich abomination sort of way. They don't have the same personalities, nor the same thoughts. They have disagreements.
They are consistent because of him having a perfectly good reason to BE trusting in humans. If Arceus was trusting in humans for no reason at all, i would agree with you. But in this case, he has had a very valid reason to BE trusting in people in those media, especially the jewel of life movie.
Except in the manga and the games we were never told why Arceus helped and trusted them, instead depicting it as a benevolent deity.
As for the movie, yes, Damos saved its life. Doesn't change the fact that what it did was rash; a risk a nigh-omniscient would have never take knowing the consequences.
Forgive me because i haven't actually read the full on manga that this took place but when is Arceus stated to aid humanity in their everyday lives?
Never mind. Head canon. It lived in harmony with them.
It was stated to trust them here.
That makes no sense since Arceus is supposed to be in an eternal sleep from the game canon, which the said manga is being based off of.
I agree but the same could be said of every media Arceus appears in. Pokemon Rangers games and the fact that Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh suggests it's more active than what was lead to believe and the "eternal sleep" is likely just an exaggeration though it still does that for the majority of its existence.
Or Pokemon just being inconsistent as always.
And even if what you say is true there isnt anything wrong with Arceus wishing to help people if HE is the one who is choosing to do so. In fact, what would stop me from saying Arceus purposely let himself be fooled by mere humans just for the sake of the storyline?
It doesn't have fourth wall awareness and it's not about wrong or right. It's about logic.
His low end showings get contradicted by the fact that he is able to rise above pokemon such as the Creation Trio which would imply he is on a much higher standing than anything else.
Did I not say so? Again your power does not address your mental faculties.
I wouldnt say that. Remember Arceus may have been sleeping but he is still the very god of the pokemonverse, there is reason to say he could have been monitering the time passing by between Damos's betrayal and Ash's generation....you know....since.... Arceus would JUST SO HAPPEN to know when a single meteor would be harmful to just ONE planet out of the countless and unknown universes pokemon has, so why wouldn't he be able to see one generation be clearly diifferent then the other?
When was it stated Arceus saw them as the same?
Arceus's role was inspired by many mythologies wherein the benevolent god becomes wrathful when angered, and carries out divine punishment to cleanse all sins.
It's not that it didn't notice these were the same set of humans, it just didn't care. I don't see why this is relevant.
As for the rest, there was also no reason for Arceus to assume that ALL humans were evil just because Damos (who was hypnotized by Marcus) was to it yet it happened.
A nigh-omniscient cosmic entity will generally know that giving the member of a species known for violence and war, a vital piece of itself in the process leaving itself vulnerable to death is a very bad idea'. It's nothing to do with assuming all humans are evil. It's simple self preservation.
In addition, Sheena already stated to Arceus that she was Damos's descendant and that how she and the others knew what a terrible thing he did to Arceus and asked for forgiveness. She even attemtpted to present the jewel of life right in front of Arceus to regain it's trust. There should have been nothing to imply to Arceus that Sheena would make the same mistake a controlled Damos did when she already knew the events of what happend, knew how terrible it was and wished for make up for what he did, especially if half of the said setting where this was happening was reduced to rubble, impliyng Sheena would have no way to actually sneak attack or even lure Arceus in a trap if he already began to show how much of a threat he was to the people. Surely by Arceus's thinking he would have seen Sheena immeidately attack Arceus seeing as how she knew what happend and why it happened. The thought of Sheena even knowing about what happened and trying to make up for it should have been clear enough that she was no threat, as well as the other ppl who lived in the town.
I never referred to this.
No he didn't.
It's common sense that he would go and listen to damos so he could gain the jewel back.
Completely unrelated to what I was saying.
Remember, the jewel of life is made from parts of Arceus that are crucial to its very survival so why would he do the opposite?
Bruh...
If he suspected Damos was going to trick it from the start, then the events of the rest of the movie wouldn't have taken place at all.
If Arceus had better judgement, none of the movie's events would have taken place at all, yes. My point exactly. But it didn't excercise its nigh omniscience and was blinded by its trust.
Besides, is it not proper for someone to propery give back something they borrowed from someone else?
At least, thats what Arceus seemed to think at the time and there isn't anything wrong with thinking that.
And he didnt "freely give them to him,
Yes it did. Arceus's choice was its own.
he gave it to him to repay what Damos did during a PIS scene: saving his life.
Again, its Arceus's choice and a very bad one at that.
Perfectly good reason to trust in a human, especially if that human was the one who helped it.
Not a good reason to cripple yourself.
Also, there was no evidence that the land WOULD have gone back to a waste land Damos ASSUMED that it would. Sheena even states that Damos BELIEVED that and was scared from that possibility so he attacked arceus to keep the jewel for himself BASED off an assumption, which is even worse poor judgement.
Brock later exclaimed the land was still sustaining life despite Arceus having gained back its plate. Arceus states it wasn't by its own power, but that of the workers in the past. The very fact they had to do so means the land would have reverted back.
Damos wasnt even afraid of the land going back to dust, Marcus was, the same person who wanted nothing but power and being a tyrant. It's not Arceus's responsibility to keep one land safe it's there's.
I never said it was. Can we please stay on topic?
Other than Marcus, not one person during that time was scared to give back the jewel otherwise everyone would have gone against Arceus if the land really was going to die without the jewel.
Addressed this, not that it matters.
This is stated where?
Somewhere in the games according to this Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh.
I confused the myths though.
No, they stopped because it wasn't trying to life wipe the entirety of the human species.
Arceus wouldn't feel it necessary to imprison Giratina if they weren't their own entities and this was before it ever lost its plates.
Note, I'm not saying Arceus doesn't control them because it does, obviously, nor do I disagree they are parts of it but I'm saying they are clearly depicted as individuals in an eldrich abomination sort of way. They don't have the same personalities, nor the same thoughts. They have disagreements.
They are consistent because of him having a perfectly good reason to BE trusting in humans. If Arceus was trusting in humans for no reason at all, i would agree with you. But in this case, he has had a very valid reason to BE trusting in people in those media, especially the jewel of life movie.
Except in the manga and the games we were never told why Arceus helped and trusted them, instead depicting it as a benevolent deity.
As for the movie, yes, Damos saved its life. Doesn't change the fact that what it did was rash; a risk a nigh-omniscient would have never take knowing the consequences.
Forgive me because i haven't actually read the full on manga that this took place but when is Arceus stated to aid humanity in their everyday lives?
Never mind. Head canon. It lived in harmony with them.
It was stated to trust them here.
That makes no sense since Arceus is supposed to be in an eternal sleep from the game canon, which the said manga is being based off of.
I agree but the same could be said of every media Arceus appears in. Pokemon Rangers games and the fact that Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh suggests it's more active than what was lead to believe and the "eternal sleep" is likely just an exaggeration though it still does that for the majority of its existence.
Or Pokemon just being inconsistent as always.
And even if what you say is true there isnt anything wrong with Arceus wishing to help people if HE is the one who is choosing to do so. In fact, what would stop me from saying Arceus purposely let himself be fooled by mere humans just for the sake of the storyline?
It doesn't have fourth wall awareness and it's not about wrong or right. It's about logic.
His low end showings get contradicted by the fact that he is able to rise above pokemon such as the Creation Trio which would imply he is on a much higher standing than anything else.
Did I not say so? Again your power does not address your mental faculties.
I wouldnt say that. Remember Arceus may have been sleeping but he is still the very god of the pokemonverse, there is reason to say he could have been monitering the time passing by between Damos's betrayal and Ash's generation....you know....since.... Arceus would JUST SO HAPPEN to know when a single meteor would be harmful to just ONE planet out of the countless and unknown universes pokemon has, so why wouldn't he be able to see one generation be clearly diifferent then the other?
When was it stated Arceus saw them as the same?
Arceus's role was inspired by many mythologies wherein the benevolent god becomes wrathful when angered, and carries out divine punishment to cleanse all sins.
It's not that it didn't notice these were the same set of humans, it just didn't care. I don't see why this is relevant.
As for the rest, there was also no reason for Arceus to assume that ALL humans were evil just because Damos (who was hypnotized by Marcus) was to it yet it happened.
A nigh-omniscient cosmic entity will generally know that giving the member of a species known for violence and war, a vital piece of itself in the process leaving itself vulnerable to death is a very bad idea'. It's nothing to do with assuming all humans are evil. It's simple self preservation.
In addition, Sheena already stated to Arceus that she was Damos's descendant and that how she and the others knew what a terrible thing he did to Arceus and asked for forgiveness. She even attemtpted to present the jewel of life right in front of Arceus to regain it's trust. There should have been nothing to imply to Arceus that Sheena would make the same mistake a controlled Damos did when she already knew the events of what happend, knew how terrible it was and wished for make up for what he did, especially if half of the said setting where this was happening was reduced to rubble, impliyng Sheena would have no way to actually sneak attack or even lure Arceus in a trap if he already began to show how much of a threat he was to the people. Surely by Arceus's thinking he would have seen Sheena immeidately attack Arceus seeing as how she knew what happend and why it happened. The thought of Sheena even knowing about what happened and trying to make up for it should have been clear enough that she was no threat, as well as the other ppl who lived in the town.
I never referred to this.
No he didn't.
It's common sense that he would go and listen to damos so he could gain the jewel back.
Completely unrelated to what I was saying.
Remember, the jewel of life is made from parts of Arceus that are crucial to its very survival so why would he do the opposite?
Bruh...
If he suspected Damos was going to trick it from the start, then the events of the rest of the movie wouldn't have taken place at all.
If Arceus had better judgement, none of the movie's events would have taken place at all, yes. My point exactly. But it didn't excercise its nigh omniscience and was blinded by its trust.
Besides, is it not proper for someone to propery give back something they borrowed from someone else?
At least, thats what Arceus seemed to think at the time and there isn't anything wrong with thinking that.
And he didnt "freely give them to him,
Yes it did. Arceus's choice was its own.
he gave it to him to repay what Damos did during a PIS scene: saving his life.
Again, its Arceus's choice and a very bad one at that.
Perfectly good reason to trust in a human, especially if that human was the one who helped it.
Not a good reason to cripple yourself.
Also, there was no evidence that the land WOULD have gone back to a waste land Damos ASSUMED that it would. Sheena even states that Damos BELIEVED that and was scared from that possibility so he attacked arceus to keep the jewel for himself BASED off an assumption, which is even worse poor judgement.
Brock later exclaimed the land was still sustaining life despite Arceus having gained back its plate. Arceus states it wasn't by its own power, but that of the workers in the past. The very fact they had to do so means the land would have reverted back.
Damos wasnt even afraid of the land going back to dust, Marcus was, the same person who wanted nothing but power and being a tyrant. It's not Arceus's responsibility to keep one land safe it's there's.
I never said it was. Can we please stay on topic?
Other than Marcus, not one person during that time was scared to give back the jewel otherwise everyone would have gone against Arceus if the land really was going to die without the jewel.
Addressed this, not that it matters.
This is stated where?
Somewhere in the games according to this Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh.
I confused the myths though.
- 388
- 4
No, they stopped because it wasn't trying to life wipe the entirety of the human species.
Arceus wouldn't feel it necessary to imprison Giratina if they weren't their own entities and this was before it ever lost its plates.
Note, I'm not saying Arceus doesn't control them because it does, obviously, nor do I disagree they are parts of it but I'm saying they are clearly depicted as individuals in an eldrich abomination sort of way. They don't have the same personalities, nor the same thoughts. They have disagreements.
Kk, forgive me i didnt know what you meant by this. So in other words you are saying that Arceus can control them they just arent ALWAYS under his control? Also, wouldnt this only apply to the anime? Im pretty sure in the manga/games the trio just do what he commanded them to do.
Except in the manga and the games we were never told why Arceus helped and trusted them, instead depicting it as a benevolent deity.
Could it be he helped them because of simple game mechanics? Such as making himself "mixed" with humans to just merely be caught?
As for the movie, yes, Damos saved its life. Doesn't change the fact that what it did was rash; a risk a nigh-omniscient would have never take knowing the consequences.
TECHNICALLY speaking a Nigh Omniscient being can. Nigh Omniscient is only a portion of actual Omniscience and can be at any limit under true Omniscience. Limited knowledge in general technically counts as nigh, it can be on different levels. This statement would make better sense if you were referring to just Omniscient, not nigh.
Never mind. Head canon. It lived in harmony with them.
If thats the case then i find it even more illogical and just see it as plain out ridiculous for the god of the verse to tangle around with lower level life forms. IIRC didnt u address before that Arceus's physical form is the avatar of the verses Original Spirit? If thats the case, then i would think it's likely that the "Arceus" that lived with humans is only a mere avatar of the Original Spirit. I mean, there are multiple versions of each plate Arceus has so how likely would it be that it simply just made another avatar?
It was stated to trust them here.
Kk. Refer to above please
I agree but the same could be said of every media Arceus appears in. Pokemon Rangers games and the fact that Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh suggests it's more active than what was lead to believe and the "eternal sleep" is likely just an exaggeration though it still does that for the majority of its existence.
Or Pokemon just being inconsistent as always.
Isnt that just game mechanics? I mean its done like this everytime in the core games just so the player can take the plates as collected items. Or, another possibility, those plates are just copies of the original ones Arceus has? Like i said above, IIRC there are more than one of each element plate.
It doesn't have fourth wall awareness and it's not about wrong or right. It's about logic.
It wouldnt need that. Obviously not in a literal sense, but there isnt anything that proves Arceus wouldnt lower its own status as a deity so that mere humans could catch, beat, or do stuff to it, etc. Characters in fiction get constantly lowered so that stories like these make sense and that the weaker characters can actually do something. It would be boring and one sided if Arceus used any of its "real" cababilities (not just power) against the humans. I understand what you are saying but i just find it as an abusive hit from the PIS stick, as its like in all the pokemon media.
Also, if you want to be technical, Arceus technically does have 4th wall awareness. Theres a scan somewhere in the Pokemon Adventures manga of Porygon breaking the 4th wall just by taping it. Imagine what Arceus would do compared to that, so (being technical here) it DOES have it lol but like i said, if you only want to be technical and if you want the scan i can give it to you myself.
Did I not say so? Again your power does not address your mental faculties.
Im not talking about just pure power i mean it's status as a deity. Its overall standing over everything in pokemon
When was it stated Arceus saw them as the same?
Arceus's role was inspired by many mythologies wherein the benevolent god becomes wrathful when angered, and carries out divine punishment to cleanse all sins.
It's not that it didn't notice these were the same set of humans, it just didn't care. I don't see why this is relevant.
I said this because you stated that since it would be asleep for a long time, it would be like yesterday for it. Anyway, it wasn't stated but it clearly was shown since Arceus immeidately started attacking the humans the second it arrived, like it did to Damos and Marcus before. All im saying is that Arceus should logically and realistically be able to notice this changes. If Arceus can sense a random meteor attacking a random irrelevant planet out of the countless universes pokemon has, then it should be able to see a difference between generations.
A nigh-omniscient cosmic entity will generally know that giving the member of a species known for violence and war, a vital piece of itself in the process leaving itself vulnerable to death is a very bad idea'. It's nothing to do with assuming all humans are evil. It's simple self preservation.
Refer to what i said about Nigh Omniscience above. Again a nigh omniscient being itself already lacks vital pieces of itself to prevent it from gaining true omniscience so they are already vulnerable from the very start. Also, war and violence? No where in the movie was Damos's generation of people known for that. They were just people living in a foreign land/region wanting to ressurect it so there was nothing for Arceus to defend itself against until that sneak attack that came out of nowhere and needed prep to do. If it wasnt for them knowing exactly what Arceus was weak against that trap wouldnt have worked from the very start. In fact, the total opposite of that species being known for violence happened. That member of a "violent" species saved Arceus's life, whcih gave Arceus a perfect reason to trust him and repay him back. Not to mention, why would a nigh omniscent being need to fear something as weak as human beings having the possiblity of harming it? Im pretty sure there are fictional characters who arent god like in that way at all and they dont have self preservation.
If Arceus had better judgement, none of the movie's events would have taken place at all, yes. My point exactly. But it didn't excercise its nigh omniscience and was blinded by its trust.
Which is why its nothing but crappy plot. The movie wouldnt take place in any way if that was the case so nerfing on a high note had to be done here to make it a consistent storyline.
Yes it did. Arceus's choice was its own.
Thats not what i meant by freely. I meant Arceus didnt just give away its plates for no reason.
Again, its Arceus's choice and a very bad one at that.
How would it be bad? If Arceus never helped Damos, he and the entire lands life would have perished.
Not a good reason to cripple yourself.
Sure it is. The person who helped you saved your life so in return your actions would save not only his life, but also thousands or even millions of people. An even better bet.
Brock later exclaimed the land was still sustaining life despite Arceus having gained back its plate. Arceus states it wasn't by its own power, but that of the workers in the past. The very fact they had to do so means the land would have reverted back.
That was because the land was already fertile thanks to the jewels power. You could say the jewel was used as a handicap. They used it to make it rich and fertile and then after giving the plate back they continued to keep it in that state without Arceus's help. It may prove the land would have lost its life but it doesnt prove it would have went back to the exact same state it was before where it could possibly kill them all.
Somewhere in the games according to this Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh.
I confused the myths though.
Like i said/asked before, this might either just be game mechanics for the player to have the plates or their are just more than one of the same plates if possible.
Arceus wouldn't feel it necessary to imprison Giratina if they weren't their own entities and this was before it ever lost its plates.
Note, I'm not saying Arceus doesn't control them because it does, obviously, nor do I disagree they are parts of it but I'm saying they are clearly depicted as individuals in an eldrich abomination sort of way. They don't have the same personalities, nor the same thoughts. They have disagreements.
Kk, forgive me i didnt know what you meant by this. So in other words you are saying that Arceus can control them they just arent ALWAYS under his control? Also, wouldnt this only apply to the anime? Im pretty sure in the manga/games the trio just do what he commanded them to do.
Except in the manga and the games we were never told why Arceus helped and trusted them, instead depicting it as a benevolent deity.
Could it be he helped them because of simple game mechanics? Such as making himself "mixed" with humans to just merely be caught?
As for the movie, yes, Damos saved its life. Doesn't change the fact that what it did was rash; a risk a nigh-omniscient would have never take knowing the consequences.
TECHNICALLY speaking a Nigh Omniscient being can. Nigh Omniscient is only a portion of actual Omniscience and can be at any limit under true Omniscience. Limited knowledge in general technically counts as nigh, it can be on different levels. This statement would make better sense if you were referring to just Omniscient, not nigh.
Never mind. Head canon. It lived in harmony with them.
If thats the case then i find it even more illogical and just see it as plain out ridiculous for the god of the verse to tangle around with lower level life forms. IIRC didnt u address before that Arceus's physical form is the avatar of the verses Original Spirit? If thats the case, then i would think it's likely that the "Arceus" that lived with humans is only a mere avatar of the Original Spirit. I mean, there are multiple versions of each plate Arceus has so how likely would it be that it simply just made another avatar?
It was stated to trust them here.
Kk. Refer to above please
I agree but the same could be said of every media Arceus appears in. Pokemon Rangers games and the fact that Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh suggests it's more active than what was lead to believe and the "eternal sleep" is likely just an exaggeration though it still does that for the majority of its existence.
Or Pokemon just being inconsistent as always.
Isnt that just game mechanics? I mean its done like this everytime in the core games just so the player can take the plates as collected items. Or, another possibility, those plates are just copies of the original ones Arceus has? Like i said above, IIRC there are more than one of each element plate.
It doesn't have fourth wall awareness and it's not about wrong or right. It's about logic.
It wouldnt need that. Obviously not in a literal sense, but there isnt anything that proves Arceus wouldnt lower its own status as a deity so that mere humans could catch, beat, or do stuff to it, etc. Characters in fiction get constantly lowered so that stories like these make sense and that the weaker characters can actually do something. It would be boring and one sided if Arceus used any of its "real" cababilities (not just power) against the humans. I understand what you are saying but i just find it as an abusive hit from the PIS stick, as its like in all the pokemon media.
Also, if you want to be technical, Arceus technically does have 4th wall awareness. Theres a scan somewhere in the Pokemon Adventures manga of Porygon breaking the 4th wall just by taping it. Imagine what Arceus would do compared to that, so (being technical here) it DOES have it lol but like i said, if you only want to be technical and if you want the scan i can give it to you myself.
Did I not say so? Again your power does not address your mental faculties.
Im not talking about just pure power i mean it's status as a deity. Its overall standing over everything in pokemon
When was it stated Arceus saw them as the same?
Arceus's role was inspired by many mythologies wherein the benevolent god becomes wrathful when angered, and carries out divine punishment to cleanse all sins.
It's not that it didn't notice these were the same set of humans, it just didn't care. I don't see why this is relevant.
I said this because you stated that since it would be asleep for a long time, it would be like yesterday for it. Anyway, it wasn't stated but it clearly was shown since Arceus immeidately started attacking the humans the second it arrived, like it did to Damos and Marcus before. All im saying is that Arceus should logically and realistically be able to notice this changes. If Arceus can sense a random meteor attacking a random irrelevant planet out of the countless universes pokemon has, then it should be able to see a difference between generations.
A nigh-omniscient cosmic entity will generally know that giving the member of a species known for violence and war, a vital piece of itself in the process leaving itself vulnerable to death is a very bad idea'. It's nothing to do with assuming all humans are evil. It's simple self preservation.
Refer to what i said about Nigh Omniscience above. Again a nigh omniscient being itself already lacks vital pieces of itself to prevent it from gaining true omniscience so they are already vulnerable from the very start. Also, war and violence? No where in the movie was Damos's generation of people known for that. They were just people living in a foreign land/region wanting to ressurect it so there was nothing for Arceus to defend itself against until that sneak attack that came out of nowhere and needed prep to do. If it wasnt for them knowing exactly what Arceus was weak against that trap wouldnt have worked from the very start. In fact, the total opposite of that species being known for violence happened. That member of a "violent" species saved Arceus's life, whcih gave Arceus a perfect reason to trust him and repay him back. Not to mention, why would a nigh omniscent being need to fear something as weak as human beings having the possiblity of harming it? Im pretty sure there are fictional characters who arent god like in that way at all and they dont have self preservation.
If Arceus had better judgement, none of the movie's events would have taken place at all, yes. My point exactly. But it didn't excercise its nigh omniscience and was blinded by its trust.
Which is why its nothing but crappy plot. The movie wouldnt take place in any way if that was the case so nerfing on a high note had to be done here to make it a consistent storyline.
Yes it did. Arceus's choice was its own.
Thats not what i meant by freely. I meant Arceus didnt just give away its plates for no reason.
Again, its Arceus's choice and a very bad one at that.
How would it be bad? If Arceus never helped Damos, he and the entire lands life would have perished.
Not a good reason to cripple yourself.
Sure it is. The person who helped you saved your life so in return your actions would save not only his life, but also thousands or even millions of people. An even better bet.
Brock later exclaimed the land was still sustaining life despite Arceus having gained back its plate. Arceus states it wasn't by its own power, but that of the workers in the past. The very fact they had to do so means the land would have reverted back.
That was because the land was already fertile thanks to the jewels power. You could say the jewel was used as a handicap. They used it to make it rich and fertile and then after giving the plate back they continued to keep it in that state without Arceus's help. It may prove the land would have lost its life but it doesnt prove it would have went back to the exact same state it was before where it could possibly kill them all.
Somewhere in the games according to this Arceus's plates are scattered across Sinnoh.
I confused the myths though.
Like i said/asked before, this might either just be game mechanics for the player to have the plates or their are just more than one of the same plates if possible.
- 167,269
- 75,722
@FictionalBlade101 It seems like you are starting to be very argumentative. I would advise you to listen to TheMightyRegulator. The staff is busy, and do not have limitless time to argue with you. Thank you.
- 3,077
- 121
Kk, forgive me i didnt know what you meant by this. So in other words you are saying that Arceus can control them they just arent ALWAYS under his control? Also, wouldnt this only apply to the anime? Im pretty sure in the manga/games the trio just do what he commanded them to do.
I'm saying you can't insist they have the same personality characteristics when they clearly do not.
In the manga Arceus created The Creation Trio to test humanity, to see if they can prevent the collapse of the Alternate Dimension/world. Dialga and Palkia later stopped simply because they didn't want to work with Giratina.
I already mentioned Giratina's banishment in the main canon.
Could it be he helped them because of simple game mechanics? Such as making himself "mixed" with humans to just merely be caught?
The very definition of game mechanics involves the fact that they have no correspondence to the plot, so no.
TECHNICALLY speaking a Nigh Omniscient being can. Nigh Omniscient is only a portion of actual Omniscience and can be at any limit under true Omniscience. Limited knowledge in general technically counts as nigh, it can be on different levels. This statement would make better sense if you were referring to just Omniscient, not nigh.
Have you forgotten the reason for this debate? It's to deduce whether or not Arceus is naive or not, we've already agreed on Arceus's nigh omniscience.
Arceus created spirit, ie. all knowledge, all emotion and well, the other isn't as important in this context but you get my point, which is the basis for its nigh-omniscience in the first place. Saying it's nigh-omniscient for creating knowledge but not knowing something itself created is contradictory to this thread.
By that logic, we might as well discard Arceus's entire nigh-omniscient rating.
No, Arceus does know, it just trusts them anyway.
If thats the case then i find it even more illogical and just see it as plain out ridiculous for the god of the verse to tangle around with lower level life forms. IIRC didnt u address before that Arceus's physical form is the avatar of the verses Original Spirit? If thats the case, then i would think it's likely that the "Arceus" that lived with humans is only a mere avatar of the Original Spirit.
We have never seen the Original Spirit.
I mean, there are multiple versions of each plate Arceus has so how likely would it be that it simply just made another avatar?
Unlikely as it was stated to be the Original One, not of many, or one of many.
Isn't that just game mechanics? I mean its done like this everytime in the core games just so the player can take the plates as collected items. Or, another possibility, those plates are just copies of the original ones Arceus has? Like i said above, IIRC there are more than one of each element plate.
Game mechanics have no relation to the storyline of a game hence why they are game mechanics.
Also, no, there has always been one of each plate. The only way you can get multiples of each element is via cheat codes.
It wouldnt need that.
You hypothesized Arceus was actively doing so to advance the plot. It can't do so if it doesn't even know there's a plot in the first place. Unless it has plot manipulation, which it doesn't…
Obviously not in a literal sense, but there isnt anything that proves Arceus wouldnt lower its own status as a deity so that mere humans could catch, beat, or do stuff to it, etc.
Assumptions that have no correlation to the current discussion. We are not talking about what has already been established before as PIS.
This is going nowhere…
Characters in fiction get constantly lowered so that stories like these make sense and that the weaker characters can actually do something.
That is not the character's doing. You realize you are still using the PIS reasoning, which has been addressed numerous times.
It would be boring and one sided if Arceus used any of its "real" cababilities (not just power) against the humans.I understand what you are saying but i just find it as an abusive hit from the PIS stick, as its like in all the pokemon media.
To be PIS it would need to contradict something. It doesn't. Arceus is always depicted like that.
Also, if you want to be technical, Arceus technically does have 4th wall awareness.
It doesn't.
Theres a scan somewhere in the Pokemon Adventures manga of Porygon breaking the 4th wall just by taping it.
That's Porygon who is not related to Arceus in anyway.
Imagine what Arceus would do compared to that, so (being technical here) it DOES have it lol but like i said, if you only want to be technical and if you want the scan i can give it to you myself.
No need. I've already explained in a different thread why the unique capabilities of Pokemon unrelated to Arceus, and that it can't replicate with one of its plates, is not scalable to its moveset.
Im not talking about just pure power i mean it's status as a deity. Its overall standing over everything in pokemo
Which has nothing to do its poor Judgement.
I said this because you stated that since it would be asleep for a long time, it would be like yesterday for it.
Obviously. There is literally no connexion between this and what I said. The terminology "like yesterday" is descriptive to emphasize the feeling of immediacy. The feelings of betrayal and rage were still fresh.
It is impossible to translate this into "it can't tell the difference between different groups of people."
Anyway, it wasn't stated but it clearly was shown since Arceus immeidately started attacking the humans the second it arrived
It was explicitly stated Arceus would eradicate the humans. All humans.
It wasn't just angry at Damos and Marcus. It was angry at humanity. Again a reference to mythology.
like it did to Damos and Marcus before. All im saying is that Arceus should logically and realistically be able to notice this changes. If Arceus can sense a random meteor attacking a random irrelevant planet out of the countless universes pokemon has, then it should be able to see a difference between generations.
We were shown in first person Arceus clearly differentiating between Damos and Sheena.
Again a nigh omniscient being itself already lacks vital pieces of itself to prevent it from gaining true omniscience so they are already vulnerable from the very start.
You refuse to note Arceus was the one who gave the jewel in the first place when it was still whole. It was complete Arceus that made that rash decision.
For the rest of the paragraph you rationalize Arceus with human emotions and morality.
The very fact that you're using morality to do so, only proves my point that Arceus is ruled by its need to trust, than the wisdom of a nigh omniscient.
This is a legitimate character flaw of Arceus and as Antvasima said this thread is going nowhere. The majority agrees on the specified statistics so I think we're done here.
I'm saying you can't insist they have the same personality characteristics when they clearly do not.
In the manga Arceus created The Creation Trio to test humanity, to see if they can prevent the collapse of the Alternate Dimension/world. Dialga and Palkia later stopped simply because they didn't want to work with Giratina.
I already mentioned Giratina's banishment in the main canon.
Could it be he helped them because of simple game mechanics? Such as making himself "mixed" with humans to just merely be caught?
The very definition of game mechanics involves the fact that they have no correspondence to the plot, so no.
TECHNICALLY speaking a Nigh Omniscient being can. Nigh Omniscient is only a portion of actual Omniscience and can be at any limit under true Omniscience. Limited knowledge in general technically counts as nigh, it can be on different levels. This statement would make better sense if you were referring to just Omniscient, not nigh.
Have you forgotten the reason for this debate? It's to deduce whether or not Arceus is naive or not, we've already agreed on Arceus's nigh omniscience.
Arceus created spirit, ie. all knowledge, all emotion and well, the other isn't as important in this context but you get my point, which is the basis for its nigh-omniscience in the first place. Saying it's nigh-omniscient for creating knowledge but not knowing something itself created is contradictory to this thread.
By that logic, we might as well discard Arceus's entire nigh-omniscient rating.
No, Arceus does know, it just trusts them anyway.
If thats the case then i find it even more illogical and just see it as plain out ridiculous for the god of the verse to tangle around with lower level life forms. IIRC didnt u address before that Arceus's physical form is the avatar of the verses Original Spirit? If thats the case, then i would think it's likely that the "Arceus" that lived with humans is only a mere avatar of the Original Spirit.
We have never seen the Original Spirit.
I mean, there are multiple versions of each plate Arceus has so how likely would it be that it simply just made another avatar?
Unlikely as it was stated to be the Original One, not of many, or one of many.
Isn't that just game mechanics? I mean its done like this everytime in the core games just so the player can take the plates as collected items. Or, another possibility, those plates are just copies of the original ones Arceus has? Like i said above, IIRC there are more than one of each element plate.
Game mechanics have no relation to the storyline of a game hence why they are game mechanics.
Also, no, there has always been one of each plate. The only way you can get multiples of each element is via cheat codes.
It wouldnt need that.
You hypothesized Arceus was actively doing so to advance the plot. It can't do so if it doesn't even know there's a plot in the first place. Unless it has plot manipulation, which it doesn't…
Obviously not in a literal sense, but there isnt anything that proves Arceus wouldnt lower its own status as a deity so that mere humans could catch, beat, or do stuff to it, etc.
Assumptions that have no correlation to the current discussion. We are not talking about what has already been established before as PIS.
This is going nowhere…
Characters in fiction get constantly lowered so that stories like these make sense and that the weaker characters can actually do something.
That is not the character's doing. You realize you are still using the PIS reasoning, which has been addressed numerous times.
It would be boring and one sided if Arceus used any of its "real" cababilities (not just power) against the humans.I understand what you are saying but i just find it as an abusive hit from the PIS stick, as its like in all the pokemon media.
To be PIS it would need to contradict something. It doesn't. Arceus is always depicted like that.
Also, if you want to be technical, Arceus technically does have 4th wall awareness.
It doesn't.
Theres a scan somewhere in the Pokemon Adventures manga of Porygon breaking the 4th wall just by taping it.
That's Porygon who is not related to Arceus in anyway.
Imagine what Arceus would do compared to that, so (being technical here) it DOES have it lol but like i said, if you only want to be technical and if you want the scan i can give it to you myself.
No need. I've already explained in a different thread why the unique capabilities of Pokemon unrelated to Arceus, and that it can't replicate with one of its plates, is not scalable to its moveset.
Im not talking about just pure power i mean it's status as a deity. Its overall standing over everything in pokemo
Which has nothing to do its poor Judgement.
I said this because you stated that since it would be asleep for a long time, it would be like yesterday for it.
Obviously. There is literally no connexion between this and what I said. The terminology "like yesterday" is descriptive to emphasize the feeling of immediacy. The feelings of betrayal and rage were still fresh.
It is impossible to translate this into "it can't tell the difference between different groups of people."
Anyway, it wasn't stated but it clearly was shown since Arceus immeidately started attacking the humans the second it arrived
It was explicitly stated Arceus would eradicate the humans. All humans.
It wasn't just angry at Damos and Marcus. It was angry at humanity. Again a reference to mythology.
like it did to Damos and Marcus before. All im saying is that Arceus should logically and realistically be able to notice this changes. If Arceus can sense a random meteor attacking a random irrelevant planet out of the countless universes pokemon has, then it should be able to see a difference between generations.
We were shown in first person Arceus clearly differentiating between Damos and Sheena.
Again a nigh omniscient being itself already lacks vital pieces of itself to prevent it from gaining true omniscience so they are already vulnerable from the very start.
You refuse to note Arceus was the one who gave the jewel in the first place when it was still whole. It was complete Arceus that made that rash decision.
For the rest of the paragraph you rationalize Arceus with human emotions and morality.
The very fact that you're using morality to do so, only proves my point that Arceus is ruled by its need to trust, than the wisdom of a nigh omniscient.
This is a legitimate character flaw of Arceus and as Antvasima said this thread is going nowhere. The majority agrees on the specified statistics so I think we're done here.
- Status
Similar threads
