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R1; Both with full power, enraged.
R2: Speed Equalised
Votes:
Madoka: 4
Anti-Monitor: 2
R2: Speed Equalised
Votes:
Madoka: 4
Anti-Monitor: 2
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Anti-Monitor vs Madoka Kaname
- Thread starter Hellspawn_Barbarian
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Anti Monitor.
Both rounds.
Both rounds.
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Madoka first round via speed (Under the assumption that Anti-Monitor was around Peak Flash's speed)
Madoka second round via concept manipulation with very high dif (Really that concept manipulation is the only little advantage Madoka has lol)
@Kyle Ramos reasoning?
Madoka second round via concept manipulation with very high dif (Really that concept manipulation is the only little advantage Madoka has lol)
@Kyle Ramos reasoning?
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Bump.
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Anti-monitor stomps
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reasoning?SSJSSGGOKU said:
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Couldn't have put it better myself.SomebodyData said:
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BUMP
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One sided victory for Madoka
Firstly she's an abstract concept so anyone without conceptual manipulation cannot kill her
Secondly she can erase concepts herself
Anti monitor can do nothing to her while she can easily take the win
Firstly she's an abstract concept so anyone without conceptual manipulation cannot kill her
Secondly she can erase concepts herself
Anti monitor can do nothing to her while she can easily take the win
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@DontTalk
Well techically she created / became the concept of the law of cycles. Then theres wraiths but idk if she even made them, as they appeared after Madoka began to rewrite reality which would imply that but still their exact origins are unknown. Theres also the fact that when you make a wish with Kyubey you really just gain the ability to grant that wish, ie Kyoko wished her father to have followers, but she can create followers for herself or anyone too, Sayaka wished to heal her waifu but now she has the ability to heal herself and others as well and etc. So it would seem that Kyubey grants the ability, rather than the actual wish.
Well techically she created / became the concept of the law of cycles. Then theres wraiths but idk if she even made them, as they appeared after Madoka began to rewrite reality which would imply that but still their exact origins are unknown. Theres also the fact that when you make a wish with Kyubey you really just gain the ability to grant that wish, ie Kyoko wished her father to have followers, but she can create followers for herself or anyone too, Sayaka wished to heal her waifu but now she has the ability to heal herself and others as well and etc. So it would seem that Kyubey grants the ability, rather than the actual wish.
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Well, wraiths are basically just a part effect of the balance of despair and hope having to stay intact, so that the despair not spread through witches anymore had to manifest in some other way, as far as I interpreted it.
About the abilities: The abilities to some degree relate to the wishes, but aren't exactly the same as homura had timestop even though her wish technically was fulfilled through going back in time, which she couldn't do by will, but only at the moment she failed to save madoka IIRC.
I honestly am a bit sceptical about Madokas post wish (godess madokas) fighting capability to be honest. She could outright not interact with anyone anymore, which makes fighting someone, which is only possible through interaction given that you have to affect your target in some way, pretty much impossible. To be honest as far as I remember the series (only watched it and the movies ones a long time ago) she didn't display the ability to affect anything not directly related to her initial wish after entering godess state, which makes me sceptical on her even being capable of effective reality warping or generally fighting against some random unrelated enemy like Anti-monitor to be honest.
About the abilities: The abilities to some degree relate to the wishes, but aren't exactly the same as homura had timestop even though her wish technically was fulfilled through going back in time, which she couldn't do by will, but only at the moment she failed to save madoka IIRC.
I honestly am a bit sceptical about Madokas post wish (godess madokas) fighting capability to be honest. She could outright not interact with anyone anymore, which makes fighting someone, which is only possible through interaction given that you have to affect your target in some way, pretty much impossible. To be honest as far as I remember the series (only watched it and the movies ones a long time ago) she didn't display the ability to affect anything not directly related to her initial wish after entering godess state, which makes me sceptical on her even being capable of effective reality warping or generally fighting against some random unrelated enemy like Anti-monitor to be honest.
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Hmmm, but then wouldn't the despair have to rival the hope from Madoka? The gap wouldn't be solvable by simple wraiths, it would have to be something that would be the contrast to both Goddess Madoka and witches.DontTalk said:
Actually, Homura is never shown to be forced to go back in time when Madoka dies, heck, in both the PSP game (secondary canon tho) and in Homura's Revenge (Another universe that has the same mechanics of a magical girl's wish) she was shown to do it while Madoka was alive. Theres also the fact that in one timeline in the anime, Homura went back in time a long time after Madoka had been a witch.
Correct, well sort of. She was able to manifest herself only when: the universe is in danger, and when the Isolation Zone is semi-active. That said, she also was able to create a heaven (actually she also became said heaven) for magical girls, something that was not originally in her wish. That and erase the minds of everyone except for a selected few.
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R1: Don't know if AM can hit Madoka, don't know if Madoka can kill AM.
R2: Probably AM due to vastly superior combat-related powers.
R2: Probably AM due to vastly superior combat-related powers.
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Wait what? Isn't Madoka faster?Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
can you name a few?
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Madokas hope is matched by the despair as she became godess. Basically as she overcame that and paradoxed out of existence her hope and despair likely matched up and by that overall became zero more or less. At least that is what I think. So the gap is likely not that large.
About the ability: Well, we don't really know. Her wish after all was only to make it so that witches doesn't exist, so its more or less questionable if, even if she got a corresponding ability set, its extents to applications other than her wish, so I am uncertain about that.
Madoka could only manifest in the isolation zone case, since it was related to her wish to deal with homuras soul gem, I think. Not sure when the "universe is in danger thing" happened.
I also don't remember anything about heaven, so I also can not really say much to that. And mind erasure is a long shot from reality warping, but why did she do that again? I mean all minds were erased when she pardoxed out of existence. This is from the movie with the isolation zone, right? Wasn't that also related to her wish than, since she used the fact that some still knew her, as she needed that help to deal with homuras soul gem, or am I misremembering that?
About the ability: Well, we don't really know. Her wish after all was only to make it so that witches doesn't exist, so its more or less questionable if, even if she got a corresponding ability set, its extents to applications other than her wish, so I am uncertain about that.
Madoka could only manifest in the isolation zone case, since it was related to her wish to deal with homuras soul gem, I think. Not sure when the "universe is in danger thing" happened.
I also don't remember anything about heaven, so I also can not really say much to that. And mind erasure is a long shot from reality warping, but why did she do that again? I mean all minds were erased when she pardoxed out of existence. This is from the movie with the isolation zone, right? Wasn't that also related to her wish than, since she used the fact that some still knew her, as she needed that help to deal with homuras soul gem, or am I misremembering that?
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She is. That's why I said I don't know if AM could hit her.SomebodyData said:
Transmuting matter, energy, and reality, having a relatively invulnerable true form (even when put next to beings of similar power, such as the Spectre), able to purge things from reality, etc.
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I'm sorry but what does Anti-Monitor have that Madoka doesn't?Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
"Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Invulnerability, Energy Manipulation, Transmutation, Anti-Matter Manipulation, Reality Manipulation, Time Manipulation, immortality"
Besides transmutation Madoka has all of those abilites. Plus more like "Intangibility, Telepathy, Familiar Summoning, Magic Resistence, Mind Manipulation Resistence" and conceptual manipulation.
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The fact that most of his abilities are more suited for combat, and that he can actually take direct effect on reality.Ryukama said:
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2 votes goes to Anti-Monitor and that is only for Round 2, Round 1 is undecided for those who voted for Anti-Monitor.
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The paradox part came from the fact that she killed her own future witch self, while Kyubey does mention the probelm of so much hope, it is never touched upon completely, in fact Madoka essentially prevented the despair that would be brought by her witch before it spreads it, meaning that as per the Law of Hope and Despair in Madoka Magica, that despair requirement has yet to be fulfilledDontTalk said:
Eh, true, but like I said, the fact that other magical girls weren't limited (even the weakest, Sayaka) makes me have massive doubts that it would be restricted to only witches)
She manifested only because of the semi-active Isolation Zone's barrier preventing her from being omniprescent inside, the wish had little to do in this case, as she never physically manifested as a Goddess to magical girls, contary to when she was still a magical girl going around saving magical girls.
The universe in danger thing was her own witch, who was already born and technically not part of her wish because of that.
Sorry about the wording on that one, ya see when I stated that one, I was regarding the fact that Madoka allowed Homura and her little brother to keep their memories which weren't part of her wish.
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Also why does speed equalize assume that AM can touch Madoka, but that speed unequalized means that Madoka cant touch AM? The fact that she cant interact really doesn't have anything to do with her speed...
Also, aren't we using the standard, "Madoka can touch X and X can touch Madoka"?
Also, aren't we using the standard, "Madoka can touch X and X can touch Madoka"?
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I don't think anyone said she couldn't?SomebodyData said:
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Natse's responce, though I assumed that you also meant that when you said Madoka wouldn't kill AM, (why wouldn't she btw?)Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Couldn't. Not wouldn't. Which had nothing to do with her being unable to interact with him. Just me not being sure she could actually get rid of him, for good.SomebodyData said:
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Copy.
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Sorry for not being more specific and not focusing on the more bigger DC comic events, but what abilities exactly prevent Madoka from killing him?
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The fact that literally nothing so far has actually killed him. He survived the COIE. He survived being a Black Lantern power battery for years and years and years. He survived Prime betraying him when he was incredibly weakened. He even survived the multiverse resetting (N52).SomebodyData said:
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That kinda sounds like a NLF? A multiverse resetting sounds something a 2-A character should be able to do. A 4-D being should be able to withstand being the source of energy for 3-D items for quite a while (Just look at the difference in energy required to destroy a universe and to destroy a multiverse), even when extremely weakened.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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"The universe in danger thing was her own witch, who was already born and technically not part of her wish because of that."
She wanted to destroy all witches throughout all of time and all universes, so why would that not be part of her wish?
Well, if she was forced into manifesting through the isolation zone, than it isn't really a display of her being capable of doing something on her own, as the incubators would be the ones who did it then.
About the abilities: Well, the real question is if the conceptual stuff was direct effect or indirect effect. In my opinion specuating on that and how powerful an ability like that would even be is kinda questionable.
I am also quite certain that if she could change teh world that freely she would have done a lot more to help her friends in the other universes and maybe create a avatar of herself to live in the verses or something like that. Basically I believe that her wielding the power this unrestricted casues plot holes that we wouldn't have otherwise.
Either way as per page also currenty states rewriting the laws and concepts of the multiverse was a one time power of her and she never really did anything of that level after that I am leaning for anti-monitor here in both rounds, because madoka in my opinion can not manifest her power in an offensive way as she pleases.
She wanted to destroy all witches throughout all of time and all universes, so why would that not be part of her wish?
Well, if she was forced into manifesting through the isolation zone, than it isn't really a display of her being capable of doing something on her own, as the incubators would be the ones who did it then.
About the abilities: Well, the real question is if the conceptual stuff was direct effect or indirect effect. In my opinion specuating on that and how powerful an ability like that would even be is kinda questionable.
I am also quite certain that if she could change teh world that freely she would have done a lot more to help her friends in the other universes and maybe create a avatar of herself to live in the verses or something like that. Basically I believe that her wielding the power this unrestricted casues plot holes that we wouldn't have otherwise.
Either way as per page also currenty states rewriting the laws and concepts of the multiverse was a one time power of her and she never really did anything of that level after that I am leaning for anti-monitor here in both rounds, because madoka in my opinion can not manifest her power in an offensive way as she pleases.
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i'm pretty sure DarkLK said Madoka wasn't suitable in a Versus match due to the nature of her powers. (The 2-A version anyway)
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To be honest I don't know. This best I could say is that maybe Kremhild was no longer a witch, and had transcended it. After all, Madoka's wish was to destroy them before they were born, something she didn't do in this case.
I should state however that Homura has stated towards the end of Rebellion that she'll wipe out the world after shes done playing with humanity and has taken care of the wraiths.
Although, we could always ask DarkLK, he probably knows far more about PMMM than both us.
I should state however that Homura has stated towards the end of Rebellion that she'll wipe out the world after shes done playing with humanity and has taken care of the wraiths.
Although, we could always ask DarkLK, he probably knows far more about PMMM than both us.
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I don't know how that's a NLF. Another 2-A character beat up on AM for a while and he was perfectly fine. Madoka hasn't demonstrated anything impressive enough to kill him off, which is why I'm unsure.SomebodyData said:
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@DontTalk well it doesn't have to be tomorrow, and considering this topic seems somewhat rare but has some influence on the wiki, I doubt we would be wasting his time or annoying him (Like the amount of times he had to step in to the TTGL conversations)
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