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Another TSSDK Upgrade

@Elizhaa

First we know that Great spirit are concepts


"In nothingness power finds its fill.
That is a holy spirit. The great holy spirit is the source of power.
Among these, light and darkness, the two great spirits.
Who came to exist at the same moment as the world.
But, the world was without form, a ephemeral existence.
Light and shadow, darkness and the light. Two existences that shall never interweave.
One day, the great spirit time was born.
The child of light and darkness.
And thus the world began to move.
The moving world spun, without purpose, around itself.
Inside the flowing currents of life and death,
Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, and Sky―these five great spirits were born.
And since then, these were the great eight spirits. Until the light consumes the world, erasing darkness. Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world."


and then Angel , Demon , and Spirits are fragment of Great spirits

" Demons are an existence like spirits or angels. It seemed to be an existence that received power receives from the spirit of Darkness, and specialized in the demonic attribute.

Similarly, the Angel specialized in the holy attribute of the spirit of Light, the exception to this seemed to be called a Spirit."

"By the way, great spirits did not have ego―they were masses of energy.
The Fire Spirit was just an excess fragment of the entire mass.
Like a monster, this fragment gained self awareness.
And this self-aware fragment of pure energy thus became a monster. in a few words-paranormal phenomena is what it is, not that i understand or i want understand, but i do get what she want us to do, the point is " Create Another Fragment is that it?"


Great Spirits are concepts, the sentient spirits are fragments of concepts, does that mean Spirits are also conceptual?

And They are lack Souls and only gain a soul when summoned into the material world:

"Summoning.It means to be summoned to the material world from the spiritual world.
By obtaining a temporary body, the pleasures of the surface could be tasted.
That is smell, touch and taste.
I could collect enough information to control the world.
A summoned demon without an ego seems to be affected by the personality of the Summoning master.
Various kind of information is received from the summoner's side.
According to the contents of the request, it seemed that I could obtain a lump of information called "Soul".*We could evolve into higher beings if we collected a lot of "Souls"."



Beings in the Level of True Demon Lord and True Dragon are able to Perma kill Spirits, Angel, and Demons by destroying its Fragments (Concepts)


"And then, that guy appeared.

Since being in this world, I felt fear for the first time.

The existence of a genuinely strong being was carved into my soul.

A demon with red hair.

He appeared before us, and easily swept us away like we were just insects.

My followers and I were exterminated.


"Fumu. There's no resistance. Boring"


Along with fear, I felt hatred gushing forth from the depths of my heart.

My subordinates, my companions were…!

Amidst the anger, an ability awakened inside me."


- Diablo When killed Demons in Underworld, Venom survive due to regenerator skill


for more evidence in gaiden chapters Veldora is fine when he tanked an attack that can destroy the concept of time

"If it is considered to be a transition of time, if the expansive power disappears from this universe, the concept of time is lost.

ÒÇÇIf expansion of the universe is positive energy, the phenomenon occurring in front of you is a negative energy. Negative energy is special, it is not of the property of defending and doing something.

ÒÇÇVeldora is not affected by nearly all interference waves.

That is that "probability manipulation" is all-purpose.

ÒÇÇEven if this was an attack from an enemy, it would have never worked.

ÒÇÇEven if the world is destroyed, Veldora can move to other dimensions without being affected.

ÒÇÇ


ÒÇÇEnergy is gone - that is, time has stopped - even in the world, it is possible to work without problems with Veldora."


This actually an upgrade for Veldora or True dragons for be able to tank a Low 2C explosion

Furthermore Rimuru before EOS is able to survive a Low 2C Explosion


"That's right. We were hurled to beyond space and time due to Yuuki's attack. The lifespan of the planet has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn't yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn't destroy the world itself yet. When he was at the phase where he destroyed the celestial bodies as well as the space-time continuum, I presume that Yuuki's lifespan had come to an end. However, I can't judge whether his wish was fulfilled or not. After that, we wandered around as we drifted in the space and I witnessed the end of this universe."


That Rimuru is after he awake from his sleep for Countless Years in the Void, and keep in mind that Rimuru state fo existance after EOS and Before EOS Rimuru is the same And That also means Rimuru is able to Resist a conceptual Manip from The Last Great Spirit who born in the future that Erasing All

"And since then, these were the great eight spirits. Until the light consumes the world, erasing darkness. Until a new spirit is born, erasing all. Life and death, heralding the coming end of the world."


When Yuuki send him to end and space time the last great spirit already born which mean at that time Rimuru is still the same PTD Rimuru


So i think we have to add Conceptual Manipulation (Destruction) to True Dragons and existence who comparable to them, and Resistance to Conceptual manipulation for Rimuru.
Yeah, its kunda outdated, i give this when we fused LN and WN so i Will erase the LN part in this argument
 
I see @NeoSuperior's point. I will review your points later since it is late night for me, @GLHF22.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
What about the Probability Manipulation Resistance I mentioned?
My opinion still remain the same.

By the way, Veldora was using Parallel Existence when fighting Dagruel. His main body was explicitely stated to be within Rimuru during the fight so he also essentially fighting with his clones.
 
Aware, I'm just saying the fact that he was still harmed and tattered from the Quesar Break, despite thinning his existence as much as possible even before his clones, should be enough.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Aware, I'm just saying the fact that he was still harmed and tattered from the Quesar Break, despite thinning his existence as much as possible even before his clones, should be enough.
I don't see how manipulating probabilty to survice an attack like Quesar Break with an extremely high probability of death give resistance to Probabiltiy Manipulation
 
If you manipulate your probability to evade an attack to its upmost limit, and still get damaged severely, is that not a resistance to probability to manipulation to still hit your target?
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
If you manipulate your probability to evade an attack to its upmost limit, and still get damaged severely, is that not a resistance to probability to manipulation to still hit your target?
The attack was akin to a black hole which effect were omnidirectional and nearly unavoidable anway,

It not like we had to what a percentage that Veldora could manipulate probabilty to make a clear jugment of resistance.
 
False, we do. It was not unavoidable, considering Veldora used probability manipulation to escape, and still got hit.

"Making good use of Ultimate Skill『Chaotic Lord Nyarlathotep』, Veldora thinned his existence probability to the utmost limit, and was barely able to evade the interference wave of the destructive energy. However, several of the clones failed in evasion, they were all annihilated."

Again, if you manipulate your probability to it's upmost limit, yet still get hit and your clones are killed, this is a clear cut resistance to probability manipulation.
 
About what percentage he can manipulate it. Considering he usually increases or decreases it by 50%, and this is again his "upmost limit", it's easily over 50%.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
About what percentage he can manipulate it. Considering he usually increases or decreases it by 50%, and this is again his "upmost limit", it's easily over 50%.
Dagruel pretty much thought it was there no escaping his attacka amd it was impossible to survive his attack taking a diract hit. So, yeah, like I said before before survive was near impossible and yes I known the probabiilty Veldora can manipulation is easily over 50%.

Chapter 218

ÒÇîI got you, Veldora. Eat this! Quasar Break[2]!!ÒÇì


A great earthquake shook this cut out space.

The inside of the space was filled with super dimensional vibration with Dagruel as its epicenter.

Irreversible, interfering destructive waves were generated and emitting invisible lights. Dagruel consumed 60% of his energy to bring forth absorption light rays.

Dagruel converted his own body into a pseudo-black hole, absorbing and destroying all matters inside the space.

At that time, because of the generated friction which exceeding the isolation space, dazzling light begun to overflow.

No matter what kind of life form, if they receive the interference of this overwhelmingly high energy concentration, it might be impossible for them to preserve their own existence.

Not just disintegrated, they would be swallowed into the black hole and disappear.

However, the majority of the absorbed energy was used by Dagruel to maintained his own existence. It didn't meant that Dagruel can absorb everything, so as a special attack, it can't be used continuously.

Dagruel had the conviction on his special attack, and checked the result.


The completely isolated space that Dagruel created closed together when he absorbed the radiated light rays.

However, it seemed that some distortion remained in the dimension, even affecting the real world.

It could be said as a scar of transcendental destruction―― although it would assimilate with the surroundings and returned to normal once time flows.

There should be no one who able to survive that attack……


ÒÇîUhhhhhhhh….. tha, that just now is very dangerous you know――ÒÇì


Dagruel was astonished with his eyes wide opened.


ÒÇîIm, impossible! You able to survive that!?ÒÇì


Dagruel shouted due to the rest of the shock.

It was his strongest attack that should eliminate anyone completely.

For Dagruel to be surprised was normal.

In the isolated space, there was no escape. Yet, for Veldora to survive after receiving the direct hit should be impossible.

But, it's a fact that Veldora survived.


ÒÇî……Ku, Kuha, Kuahahahaha!

So, something like this isn't a big deal for me!ÒÇì


When you observe him carefully, Veldora was not unharmed.

His wings were tattered, and his whole body was injured all over. He just pretended to be okay.

In fact, he was not completely evading the attack just now.

Making good use of Ultimate Skill『Chaotic Lord Nyarlathotep』, Veldora thinned his existence probability to the utmost limit, and was barely able to evade the interference wave of the destructive energy. However, several of the clones failed in evasion, they were all annihilated.

It's a terrifying technique, and if Veldora was even a bit late, Veldora would be definitely destroyed.


Veldora integrated all of his remaining clones and checked the current situation.

His remaining energy currently was at 50%, he included the amount that was lost to Shion.

(I consumed a lot. However, it's all according to the calculation!)

Dgaruel and Veldora were almost even.

Veldora had about 30% of his energy taken by Shion before the fight began.

Therefore, to overturn the disadvantageous situation, it was necessary to make Dagruel wasted his.

The current situation of the amount of their remaining energy are, Veldora at 50% against Dagruel with 40%. A reversal.

However, it was good because he succeeded in the gamble, the probability of his survival was very small against the attack.

Veldora gambled that he could evade it with Ultimate Skill『Chaotic Lord Nyarlathotep』.

Veldrora had won the gamble.

…… In the first place, even if he lose the gamble, he act with the prediction that there was no doubt that he could be regenerated by Rimuru.

(If I know that it's possible for me to regenerate, I'm not going to be scared of any dangerous battle! Kuahahaha!)

Veldora laughed loudly with his true feelings that can't be let out.

This was exactly the reason why Veldora said Dagruel had no chance to win against him.
 
Yes, and that fact of the matter is that Veldora used his probability manipulation to its maximum capacity, evaded, but still gravely injured by the attack just means Dagruel was able to pierce his probability manipulation.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Yes, and that fact of the matter is that Veldora used his probability manipulation to its maximum capacity, evaded, but still gravely injured by the attack just means Dagruel was able to pierce his probability manipulation.
I know there is case by case format so I am neutral.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Yes, and that fact of the matter is that Veldora used his probability manipulation to its maximum capacity, evaded, but still gravely injured by the attack just means Dagruel was able to pierce his probability manipulation.
I wonder about that , the probability of veldora surviving dagruel's technique was stated to be "very small" from the begin with [but not zero%) . so I think it's natural for veldora to get injured
 
Where was it stated to be small? Even if it was, the fact that he manipulated his probability to escape, and was still injured, means Dagruel could overpower his probability manipulation.
 
it's stated in chap 218 above ƒæå "However, it was good because he succeeded in the gamble, the probability of his survival was very small against the attack."
 
I just remember smthn . apparently veldora's faust was able to hax uriel's (100%) perfect barrier with ease , chap 173

――Calculation miss? Unexpected situation? Unable to compute――

《Error. Calculations showed it was 100% probability―― 》

(Now isn't the time to space out! Veldora has Faust's probability manipulation. It has the capability to bypass your perfectly calculated scenarios. Or should I say control the result? Calculation-based actions won't work against Veldora. Don't think, feel! Worrying doesn't suit you! I'll deal with him, so you deal with Velgrynd!)

《―― Under-. I understand. 》


so , draguel's resistance to prob manip was legit I guessƒñö
 
btw I wonder why chap 59 takes so long , myb the translator can't stand seeing many corpse including shion's or smthn ? it's depressing chap indeed
 
I am not sure if CP agreed to it. I am personally confused about how the resistance to concept manipulation is supposed to work.

As I already mentioned earlier, it's this issue isn't simple. We lack some VS Battles rules knowledge here, specifically for what concept manipulation generally is. Does it have to inherently be able to bypass any "lower" defenses or does it have to fulfill both conceptual and "lower" conditions, or can it differ from case to case?

In this case: Does "conceptual absorption" only get resisted by conceptual resistance? Can "conceptual absorption" be resisted via only absorption resistance? Or not? Or does the defender need both conceptual resistance AND absorption resistance?

I am not sure what the exact standards for VS Battles are that need to be met. Can someone clarify?
 
CP seems fairly busy with other stuff and doesn't seem to want to spend too much time with WN stuff. Same goes for me, as I only involve myself with WN stuff for the significant changes like concept stuff and (4D or) 5D stuff.

But it won't hurt if you just ask him. Otherwise you'd need to find another admin or discussion moderator.
 
All i will say is if you wanna apply concept resistance to Velgrynd you will have to change how demons and angels are viewed on this site, i made a crt thread a long time ago and it was agreed they are type 2 abstracts meaning they are reliant on concepts as opposed to type 1 abstracts where they are concepts, "conceptual existences" was deemed too vague by another admin to accept type 1.

If you want to argue demons and angels are pure concepts, gonna need some other staff for that, i have no interest in it, but as how they are currently accepted on here, they can't have resistance to concept manipulation because they aren't concepts, merely reliant on them.
 
Something I wanted to ask, from earlier in the thread. Is this biological manipulation, too?

Veldora standing in the center of the prismatic darkness sphere. In front of him is Dagruel.

ÒÇî――you, did you change the world with me as the seedbed?ÒÇì ÒÇîHmph. Rather than changing, the correct answer would be I return it to its origin. Because Fertile Paradox actually isn't an attack. I gave this land my divine protection. Using the corpses as the nourishment, I quicken the growth of nature. I restored this land where the magic disaster happened before to normal, in order to restore it to soil with good harvests. By the way, your body will be the core. It's impossible to cancel this effect―― After all, it's because this is a restoration ability.ÒÇì

Also, forgot to add, Dagruel's aura is stated to be holy. Holy manipulation maybe?

ÒÇîI aware of it. Such a cunning thing and also provoking, you know――ÒÇì ÒÇîKuaahhahhahha! I'll accept it as a compliment. What? You don't need to worry. Your holy aura will be restored after hundreds of years at the quickest, or at the latest after a thousand years. Your current state would be restored completely and naturally reborn. At that time, the normalization of this land might also be completed.ÒÇì
 
Keeping this for reference.

Proposed P&A changes are:


Proposed Resistances are:

 
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