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Attempting the impossible, I'll be going over feats and information that support sage mode granting a 10x speed increase. Also towards the end I'll be addressing the brought up contradictions that led to the multiplier being dropped as a whole
CM = curse mark
ST = sage transformation (full transformation)
SM = sage mode
Curse mark ~ sage transformation
Regardless of what’s being amped, one thing the CMs all have in common is their origin, ST
Karin even states that the CM allows hosts to achieve the same state, which means not the same stats being amped, but the same amp multiplier. Why? Because KT already addressed the fact that CM doesn’t amp all stats, which I’ve come to agree with. So if it doesn’t amp all stats like ST and doesn’t share the same amp or at least have one comparable to ST, it's not achieving the same state by any shape or form. This supports the amp being at least equal, along with the obvious ST being superior to CM. Look at CM2 sasuke's showings against deidara for example, his amp clearly wasn't as noticeable as sage transformation's
Sage transformation ~ sage mode
Since I’ve shown why CM and ST have the same amp relativity, I’ll now show that the ST amp affects speed and translates to SM (reminder that jugo's ST power comes from utilizing senjutsu like SM)
Fully transformed jugo reacted to the 4th raikage in his lightning cloak. C states that he’s impressed with sasuke and jugo, because they’re keeping up with the raikage’s speed and reflexes (this is a showing of increase for speed and durability to support ST affecting multiple stats. Vsb already accepts it as an AP boost)
To put this into perspective, killer B who is slower than the raikage easily evaded a partially transformed jugo. This supports the fact that it’s a 1 to 1 amp to AP, because he was too slow for base killer b, but while fully transformed could react to and block a lightning cloaked raikage. This is consistent because VSB accepts jugo as MHS+, and with a 10x amplifier he reaches sub rel which is what the raikage’s speed is currently listed as, which supports the fact that he needed full ST to react to and block him
Some other situations to support sage mode's speed amp, SM is stated to be faster than KCM1, it was used to finally blitz the 3rd raikage and deal damage after failing with KCM1. This applies to reactions and speed because naruto even mentions that he has to move out of the way "really fast" to successfully counter. What makes this impressive is the fact that he used KCM1 to blitz the 4th raikage, it was this speed that was used as a comparison to minato by him, tsunade and B. That supports the speed amp being noticeable enough for a multiplier, which fits our standard for multipliers being given
Second example is kabuto going from MHS+ to sub rel after achieving perfect sage mode, which again supports a 10x speed increase
Last example is mitsuki using ST to blitz orochimaru and log, while simultaneously stealing the seed. This is less quantifiable but still clearly shows a very noticeable speed increase
We know that ST is a way of attaining SM, so naturally the CM’s origin is inferior to the true stage it’s trying to attain. In other words, sage mode would amplify its user by the very least, curse mark’s weakest amplifier (10x)
Because the weakest CM wouldn't have a higher amp than its own origin and true stage of its origin. Even the narrative supports my point by giving clear evidence of ST/SM's superiority over CM which justifies at least the same multiplier being given
Lastly I’ll be addressing the feats that are claimed to contradict SM receiving the CM amplifier in this thread
https://vsbattles.com/threads/curse-mark-and-sage-mode-multiplier-removal-crt.119609/
Base naruto compared to sage mode
“A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson. An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.”
“Did he take the hits as if he tanked them or as if he was relative? Of course not.
The fact that they could keep up is an issue. Ofc they shouldn't be relative for sending him flying, but the fact that he took the hit and could still fight him is a problem.”
I don’t see a big problem with this first part, the kick wasn’t meant to deal tons of damage. It was one stationary kick to create distance so that he can set up his rasenshuriken, and it still sent him flying. Had it worked how naruto wanted with no interference from the preta path, then pain could’ve possibly taken considerable damage. This was the purpose of every rasenshuriken because he couldn't afford to waste a single one
As for the 2 path combo, it didn’t hurt him at all. Naruto literally laughed in pain’s face and insulted him lol
Lastly, the kick pain took was still way more than anything he received from base naruto
It's important to remember that pain's objective wasn't to kill naruto, but to capture him. Not every blow was lethal or intended to be
Base naruto compared to Six paths sage mode + kcm
- Boruto (momoshiki)
“Base Naruto got kicked in the face through a stadium by Momoshiki and isn't hurt (anime).”
“Base Naruto fought against Momoshiki and took hits from him (anime and manga).”
This can be explained by momoshiki’s objective being to extract nine tails from naruto, not kill him, similar to the pain situation
In his confrontation with fused momoshiki, naruto instantly gains the upper hand and sends him flying after activating SPSM. This is SPSM naruto's only showing of physical feats against fused momoshiki and he was in control the entire time. While in base form he could only briefly keep up while on the defensive end
- Boruto (delta)
“Base Naruto took hits from Delta and could slam her into the ground, kept up with her in speed, etc. (anime and manga).”
She took no damage from him slamming her
Delta and naruto both began going full power after he kept up in base and switched to SPSM. Naruto blatantly acknowledges that her power is increasing and that she’s getting serious, so he does the same
- Boruto (jigensshiki)
“Base Naruto kicked Isshiki in his face and left a wound (manga).”
“Base Naruto took a few knees from Isshiki (manga).”
“Wound” is a strong word, he caught isshiki off guard and left a scratch
This is base naruto to an on guard base jigen, And to an on guard isshiki. While in SPSM he could at least do stuff like this against karma amped jigen, this against isshiki, and this too which is far better than anything he’s shown in base
As for the single stomp he took in base, not the few knees(?) It wasn’t meant to be a killing blow. He used naruto as bait then literally threatened to kill him after the stomp happened
Also, isshiki was already severely drained. Naruto didn’t even take that damage from a healthy isshiki, but an extremely weakened one. His life span shrunk to a few minutes by the time he stomped him
Base naruto compared to Six paths sage mode + kcm (continued)
- Base and CS1 jugo compared to CS2 jugo
“CS1 Jugo is comparable to Suigetsu for their feats of clashing.”
“Suigetsu could block a hit from Ay. The same Ay who could punch into CS2 Jugo, who's supposed to be 10x stronger than the one that fought Suigetsu.”
Again my whole argument is that the 10x amp comes from full transformation, same way jirobo’s 10x amp was stated only in his second stage. In other words he didn’t have that amp in his fight with suigetsu
And suigetsu himself admitted that he would’ve lost both of his arms if he couldn’t turn his body into water. So that wouldn’t be him matching the raikage’s strength, it would be using intangibility to circumvent the drawbacks of trying to match somebody more powerful
So to conclude, the 10x multiplier should be applied to the speed of perfect sage mode users and obviously affect characters who are relative. That's about it, lmk what you think
CM = curse mark
ST = sage transformation (full transformation)
SM = sage mode
Curse mark ~ sage transformation
Regardless of what’s being amped, one thing the CMs all have in common is their origin, ST
Karin even states that the CM allows hosts to achieve the same state, which means not the same stats being amped, but the same amp multiplier. Why? Because KT already addressed the fact that CM doesn’t amp all stats, which I’ve come to agree with. So if it doesn’t amp all stats like ST and doesn’t share the same amp or at least have one comparable to ST, it's not achieving the same state by any shape or form. This supports the amp being at least equal, along with the obvious ST being superior to CM. Look at CM2 sasuke's showings against deidara for example, his amp clearly wasn't as noticeable as sage transformation's
Sage transformation ~ sage mode
Since I’ve shown why CM and ST have the same amp relativity, I’ll now show that the ST amp affects speed and translates to SM (reminder that jugo's ST power comes from utilizing senjutsu like SM)
Fully transformed jugo reacted to the 4th raikage in his lightning cloak. C states that he’s impressed with sasuke and jugo, because they’re keeping up with the raikage’s speed and reflexes (this is a showing of increase for speed and durability to support ST affecting multiple stats. Vsb already accepts it as an AP boost)
To put this into perspective, killer B who is slower than the raikage easily evaded a partially transformed jugo. This supports the fact that it’s a 1 to 1 amp to AP, because he was too slow for base killer b, but while fully transformed could react to and block a lightning cloaked raikage. This is consistent because VSB accepts jugo as MHS+, and with a 10x amplifier he reaches sub rel which is what the raikage’s speed is currently listed as, which supports the fact that he needed full ST to react to and block him
Some other situations to support sage mode's speed amp, SM is stated to be faster than KCM1, it was used to finally blitz the 3rd raikage and deal damage after failing with KCM1. This applies to reactions and speed because naruto even mentions that he has to move out of the way "really fast" to successfully counter. What makes this impressive is the fact that he used KCM1 to blitz the 4th raikage, it was this speed that was used as a comparison to minato by him, tsunade and B. That supports the speed amp being noticeable enough for a multiplier, which fits our standard for multipliers being given
Second example is kabuto going from MHS+ to sub rel after achieving perfect sage mode, which again supports a 10x speed increase
Last example is mitsuki using ST to blitz orochimaru and log, while simultaneously stealing the seed. This is less quantifiable but still clearly shows a very noticeable speed increase
We know that ST is a way of attaining SM, so naturally the CM’s origin is inferior to the true stage it’s trying to attain. In other words, sage mode would amplify its user by the very least, curse mark’s weakest amplifier (10x)
Because the weakest CM wouldn't have a higher amp than its own origin and true stage of its origin. Even the narrative supports my point by giving clear evidence of ST/SM's superiority over CM which justifies at least the same multiplier being given
Lastly I’ll be addressing the feats that are claimed to contradict SM receiving the CM amplifier in this thread
https://vsbattles.com/threads/curse-mark-and-sage-mode-multiplier-removal-crt.119609/
Base naruto compared to sage mode
“A Pain who was matching base Naruto's AP could block and take a kick from SM Naruto with minimal injuries.A quick 2 Pain combo could hurt Naruto and put him in a full nelson. An even more tired, weakened, and injured Pain could take a kick from SM Naruto.”
“Did he take the hits as if he tanked them or as if he was relative? Of course not.
The fact that they could keep up is an issue. Ofc they shouldn't be relative for sending him flying, but the fact that he took the hit and could still fight him is a problem.”
I don’t see a big problem with this first part, the kick wasn’t meant to deal tons of damage. It was one stationary kick to create distance so that he can set up his rasenshuriken, and it still sent him flying. Had it worked how naruto wanted with no interference from the preta path, then pain could’ve possibly taken considerable damage. This was the purpose of every rasenshuriken because he couldn't afford to waste a single one
As for the 2 path combo, it didn’t hurt him at all. Naruto literally laughed in pain’s face and insulted him lol
Lastly, the kick pain took was still way more than anything he received from base naruto
It's important to remember that pain's objective wasn't to kill naruto, but to capture him. Not every blow was lethal or intended to be
Base naruto compared to Six paths sage mode + kcm
- Boruto (momoshiki)
“Base Naruto got kicked in the face through a stadium by Momoshiki and isn't hurt (anime).”
“Base Naruto fought against Momoshiki and took hits from him (anime and manga).”
This can be explained by momoshiki’s objective being to extract nine tails from naruto, not kill him, similar to the pain situation
In his confrontation with fused momoshiki, naruto instantly gains the upper hand and sends him flying after activating SPSM. This is SPSM naruto's only showing of physical feats against fused momoshiki and he was in control the entire time. While in base form he could only briefly keep up while on the defensive end
- Boruto (delta)
“Base Naruto took hits from Delta and could slam her into the ground, kept up with her in speed, etc. (anime and manga).”
She took no damage from him slamming her
Delta and naruto both began going full power after he kept up in base and switched to SPSM. Naruto blatantly acknowledges that her power is increasing and that she’s getting serious, so he does the same
- Boruto (jigensshiki)
“Base Naruto kicked Isshiki in his face and left a wound (manga).”
“Base Naruto took a few knees from Isshiki (manga).”
“Wound” is a strong word, he caught isshiki off guard and left a scratch
This is base naruto to an on guard base jigen, And to an on guard isshiki. While in SPSM he could at least do stuff like this against karma amped jigen, this against isshiki, and this too which is far better than anything he’s shown in base
As for the single stomp he took in base, not the few knees(?) It wasn’t meant to be a killing blow. He used naruto as bait then literally threatened to kill him after the stomp happened
Also, isshiki was already severely drained. Naruto didn’t even take that damage from a healthy isshiki, but an extremely weakened one. His life span shrunk to a few minutes by the time he stomped him
Base naruto compared to Six paths sage mode + kcm (continued)
- Base and CS1 jugo compared to CS2 jugo
“CS1 Jugo is comparable to Suigetsu for their feats of clashing.”
“Suigetsu could block a hit from Ay. The same Ay who could punch into CS2 Jugo, who's supposed to be 10x stronger than the one that fought Suigetsu.”
Again my whole argument is that the 10x amp comes from full transformation, same way jirobo’s 10x amp was stated only in his second stage. In other words he didn’t have that amp in his fight with suigetsu
And suigetsu himself admitted that he would’ve lost both of his arms if he couldn’t turn his body into water. So that wouldn’t be him matching the raikage’s strength, it would be using intangibility to circumvent the drawbacks of trying to match somebody more powerful
So to conclude, the 10x multiplier should be applied to the speed of perfect sage mode users and obviously affect characters who are relative. That's about it, lmk what you think
