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Another Jiren/Goku DBS CRT / Clarification

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Golden_Void

Golden_Void

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Just wondering, what puts Goku and Jiren below Zeno who is 2-C via destroying the future 12 physical universes, when they shook an infinite void (Jiren was super casual)? Not trying to say they're stronger than Zeno or anything ;). As I remember, I think this is why they have 3-A.

Grand Priest apparently felt like the energy of the spirit bomb was threatening, given he shielded the Zenos while the spirit bomb was still active, Belmod and Champa were also concerned about it.

Then we have Shin's statement , that Jiren (while casual) was the strongest enemy they've ever faced. Looking back at the enemies Shin has seen, that gives us Majin Buu, Black, Zamasu, Fusion Zamasu, and Infinite Zamasu, and only 1 being out of that entire list isn't trash. Meanwhile, Goku was at his absolute peak . And Goku and crew did manage to "fight" Infinite Zamasu, albeit briefly .

Also, is it likely that Jiren has gravity manipulation? He managed to do this with a glance.

This probably won't be applied, but I thought it would be nice to mention.
"Stellar black holes form when the center of a very massive star collapses in upon itself. This collapse also causes a supernova, or an exploding star, that blasts part of the star into space. "

The spirit bomb goes from reaching maximum expansion, to turning black and compressing in size and becomes a "black hole".

This probably won't be touched upon too much due to people saying it doesn't act like a black hole, but there were many gravitational effects (such as floating rocks being crushed ).

Definitely some gravity manipulation going on regardless."
 
Dont forget that Whis made the statement of Jiren to be on par Or surpassing a god of destruction while Jiren was casual and Belmond said SSBx20 would be worrisome if he fought it but for Jiren it's a piece of cake, once again, while Jiren was suppressed.

We have Whis saying casyal Jiren>Gods and a god himself putting Jiren above himself while he's casual.
 
Floating rocks and energy has been seen from just pure Ki use before, I do not think gravity control was at any point here. If Jiren could make black holes he could likely destroy the entire roster with even more ease than he seems to be doing already.


As for "infinite void" that may have been exageration, not sure how you would gauge "void" as anything anyway.
 
Let me list arguments for the black hole


It was caused by the spirit bomb expanding then shrinking, untill it finally collapsed in in itself, just like a real star.

It seemed draw in everything it had time to, including Goku and particles of light.

It drew in rocks towards itself, not just causing them to float.

Also Jiren can already manhandle everyone, but this wouldn't be for him.
 
Yes I read that but if nothing exists then how can it be gauged as anything worth noting? Surely influencing "nothing" is hardly a feat. On the other hand, the void has the Arena in it, so perhaps he just means he shook the arena.

To each their own but I see no value in it, I am more interested in the fact Goku despite his power cannot face down Jiren, not sure how hes going to beat him.
 
They said infinite, including Elder Kai, who has universal+ clairvoyance and all seeing eyes.

And it was stated multiple times, by multiple sources.

And shaking infinity, even if thst infinity is still basucally nothing, is still infinity.
 
VoidReaper said:
Yes I read that but if nothing exists then how can it be gauged as anything worth noting? Surely influencing "nothing" is hardly a feat. On the other hand, the void has the Arena in it, so perhaps he just means he shook the arena.
To each their own but I see no value in it, I am more interested in the fact Goku despite his power cannot face down Jiren, not sure how hes going to beat him.
Click to expand...
If it was only the arena then the Supreme Kai would not "correct himself" quote "the fighting stage, no, the whole world of void" the fighting stage in the case = arena
 
I guess the whole world could include more than the fighting stage, like the podiums the Gods are sitting in and Zenos "box"


"And shaking infinity, even if thst infinity is still basucally nothing, is still infinity."


I guess you could reduce it to he "shook nothing", course, I suspect its just exageration to boost the drama of the scene/Gokus transformation.
 
Except it happened twice, and was reiterated multiple times by multiple sources.

And they still needed to cross the entirety of infinite space.
 
Ask? We don't need to ask, he said it blatantly, in fact he originally said it was just the fighting area but then corrected himself because it was wrong a second later.

Don't think this wasnt discussed, it was discussed over the course of 2-3 threads.

We're on this topic now because the rest was discussed between like 20+ people including staff.
 
Well we just discussed it just now. In any case another thing said in the OP was that they "fought" infnite Zamassu, I would not say fireing a few ineffective ki blasts conssitutes as a fight...I felt they were pretty helpless there.
 
VoidReaper said:
Well we just discussed it just now. In any case another thing said in the OP was that they "fought" infnite Zamassu, I would not say fireing a few ineffective ki blasts conssitutes as a fight...I felt they were pretty helpless there.
Click to expand...
Yeah, agree with you in this one, they were useless, BUT, they did survive attacks from infinite Zamasu thou, and for me that always were a good feat
 
For the low 2-C statement, I think we need to wait for with more evidence.

For one, Goku wasnt the only one facing I.Z. so just because Jiren is Gokus strongest opponent doesn't mean Jiren is neccesarily above a guy who was against everyone. And Goku didnt even fight Infinite Zamasu. He only fought a far weaker version of Zamasu and got curb stomped. At least to my knowledge as i believe we count this as a PIS. For all we know Shins statement can at best only apply to Fusion Zamasu, a 3-A. Not Infinite Zamasu.

Second, Shin kinda isnt the most reliable source. He even thought Pui-Pui and Zakon were too strong for Goku, Vegeta and Gohan once and hasnt shown anything to suggest he can be taken seriously.
 
Read what Shin says, he didn't say the toughest enemy Goku fought, he said the the opponent We've faced.


And that's a poor example, he thought they were too strong for them, that is untill he seen their power then he was like, holy shit, babidi is screwed.
 
Exactly, Shin clearly thought of fodder as too much for the 3 of them when it would have been logical to simply see what they can do. And that KINDA isnt an excuse.

Even when Vegeta stomped Pui-Pui, Shin still underestimated them as demonstrated when he was worried for Goku fighting Zakon. Why still worry when clearly they've shown to be leagues above them?

The only time he mightve been right was when Gohan was facing Dabura and that doesn't really count me thinks since it was more Gohan being weak than Dabura being a threat. Vegeta even said himself if he or Goku were to fight him they'd very likely win just as easily as they did before.

EDIT: Also regarding the statement, so Shin says the power feels different. What exactly is here that allows us to assume he's stronger than Infinite Zamasu when even a far weaker version of him was too much for Goku before?
 
"Exactly, Shin clearly thought of fodder as too much for the 3 of them when it would have been logical to simply see what they can do. And that KINDA isnt an excuse."

It kinda is. He didn't see Pui Pui was fodder for "mortals". He had yet to see their true power. As such it is indeed a good excuse.

"Even when Vegeta stomped Pui-Pui, Shin still underestimated them as demonstrated when he was worried for Goku fighting Zakon."

Yeah, he was worried about him fighting a being MUCH stronger than the last and could absorb energy. Completely logical.

That last point is irrelevant. And I HIGHLY doubt Shin would lie about something like this. Especially seeing as he was there for Infinite Zamasu.

Either way, I still agree we should wait.
 
>let's assume every random person I meet can shitstomps plabet-star busting monsters enhanced by a tiny wizard

Also Yakon>Pui-Pui.

Which Goku needed to go SSJ for, so Vegeta stomping Pui in base means Nothing if the next enemy needed SSJ to beat.
 
Shin may have been wrong in the past but that doesn't mean he's always wrong. He has a tendency to underestimate mortals, but if he was wrong about Jiren Beerus or Whis would have corrected him.
 
@Dragon

Well since we both agree on the same thing in the end I'll leave those points alone now.

However, for the very last point, yes he's seen Infinite Zamasu but has he actually felt his level of power? For one, Shin mostly was concerned about Zamasu just being un-fightable due to being the universe and in the process of going on. More importantly second, if I recall correctly none of them could actually feel his power for well, obvious reasons. Aka, a being becoming the universe (Low 2-C) being infinitely beyond the scope of Tier 3's to even be sensed (and isnt Shin still Tier 4? Correct me if I'm wrong pls)

@TheJ-Man

You mean those planet-star level characters that current Goku and co. at the time could just flick away?

But fair on the Zakon point.

@Lord Griffin

Yes but what says he's suddenly right now? I'd agree to this too if Shin actually shown development to show he can be taken just as seriously as at least Elder Kaioshin sama. In addition, Shin only says that the power feels different, not that its neccesarily stronger. Comparing him to Zamasu makes little sense since one is a deity who became at least the universes space-time and the other is just a really strong dude in a tournament. What's assuming he's not talking about Fusion Zamasu, someone they've actually fought, instead of Infinite Zamasu who without Zen'o was literally unable to be fought against?
 
"However, for the very last point, yes he's seen Infinite Zamasu but has he actually felt his level of power? For one, Shin mostly was concerned about Zamasu just being un-fightable due to being the universe and in the process of going on. More importantly second, if I recall correctly none of them could actually feel his power for well, obvious reasons. Aka, a being becoming the universe (Low 2-C) being infinitely beyond the scope of Tier 3's to even be sensed (and isnt Shin still Tier 4? Correct me if I'm wrong pls)"

He did feel him. I highly doubt if Beerus and Whis could sense him, the God of Creation could not.
 
Whis doing 1v1 doesn't mean much. That wouldn't tell us if he'd actually win or if it did, all he'd need to do is just destroy the universe like Zen'o did to kill him.

@Dragon

I see. I dont have anything to say to that really so i'll just wait for someone else to if they ever do.

Long story short, I still think we should wait for more evidence before making such a huge junmp based off one thing so far. Thats all Im saying.
 
Well Whis never did it so he isn't becoming Low 2-C off of that otherwise we would have long made him that since the Zamasu Arc.

All I'm saying is I think more evidence is needed. If majority thinks otherwise then so be it on this.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
For one, Goku wasnt the only one facing I.Z. so just because Jiren is Gokus strongest opponent doesn't mean Jiren is neccesarily above a guy who was against everyone. And Goku didnt even fight Infinite Zamasu. He only fought a far weaker version of Zamasu and got curb stomped. At least to my knowledge as i believe we count this as a PIS. For all we know Shins statement can at best only apply to Fusion Zamasu, a 3-A. Not Infinite Zamasu.
Click to expand...
Disregarding the stuff I didn't include from here...

1. Yes, he faced IZ with Trunks and Vegeta. But at that level of power, dividing by 3 makes an invisible difference to the tiering.

2. Yes he did fight Infinite Zamasu. There's the three examples I listed above. Then there's the fact that they actually resisted taking damage from him before getting rekt by his attack . Both Shin and Gowasu even put up a shield in defense to IZ's attacks, so I think he has pretty good first hand knowledge. IZ's attacks were also shown turning buildings and fodder into nothing .

Plus ever since Elder Kai came back, Shin's knowledge on things has increased. You constantly see Elder Kai badgering him on his knowledge of situations. And yes, Goku did fight a weaker Zamasu. He fought off a Holy Wrath on his own, which Vegeta and Trunks didn't do, and proceeded to smash Zamasu's face and further his grotesque mutation.
 
As far as the gravity thing goes, it was shown that Jiren's glare is what turned the spirit bomb into a "black hole". J-Man posted a comment on that above ^

Plus, Goku transforming developed a gravitational pull that dragged boulders and rocks from across the stage to his direction. Transforming usually causes rocks to tremble and levitate in the immediate area, so it's possible that it is different.
 
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