Anos VS Dante

[Tanin_iver]

Ok, I am tired of explaining at this point.

Secondly, AE1 is literally about the character itself being an abstraction, and if you want to affect the character, you need to affect the abstraction, how the hell is something that drives a person crazy affecting a LITERAL CONCEPT?

Dante is not affecting anyone, please try to get this. Its Anos and Venuz that is affecting themselves. THEMSELVES. Why are u trying to make the argument that Dante has to affect them, when he just needs to exist and they affect themselves because they are perceiving Dante not Dante trying to induce the effects.

 

[Huesito88]

Ok, I am tired of explaining at this point.

Dante is not affecting anyone, please try to get this. Its Anos and Venuz that is affecting themselves. THEMSELVES. Why are u trying to make the argument that Dante has to affect them, when he just needs to exist and they affect themselves because they are perceiving Dante not Dante trying to induce the effects.

He should just make a Q and A at this point or ask a Staff member because it seems he's not going to take your word for it.

 

[Dog3352]

Ok, I am tired of explaining at this point.

Dante is not affecting anyone, please try to get this. Its Anos and Venuz that is affecting themselves. THEMSELVES. Why are u trying to make the argument that Dante has to affect them, when he just needs to exist and they affect themselves because they are perceiving Dante not Dante trying to induce the effects.

3: Cognition: Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

Read the damn explanation, the characters affect themselves because they are crazy and trying to kill themselves, the Madness Manipulation comes from the opponent, it is an effect that the opponent himself will induce on the character.
Seriously, do you even read the explanation pages? How the hell wouldn't Dante be the one inducing Madness in his opponents if he's the one with Madness Manipulation?

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Ok, I am tired of explaining at this point.

Dante is not affecting anyone, please try to get this. Its Anos and Venuz that is affecting themselves. THEMSELVES. Why are u trying to make the argument that Dante has to affect them, when he just needs to exist and they affect themselves because they are perceiving Dante not Dante trying to induce the effects.

It depends on the nature of Dante's Madness 3, whether by seeing if his nature is strong enough to bypass their abstraction. It shouldn't be assumed that every type 3 nature being up on looking effect others by themselves up to CM or AE level.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Read the damn explanation, the characters affect themselves because they are crazy and trying to kill themselves, the Madness Manipulation comes from the opponent, it is an effect that the opponent himself will induce on the character.

He should just make a Q and A at this point or ask a Staff member because it seems he's not going to take your word for it.

As u can see, yeah.

3: Cognition: Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

I have to ask, can you read more than 5 words of the entire sentence?

 

[Eseseso]

With the concept being type 1, the order of destruction (which is the concept of Venuzdonoa, or Venuzdonoa itself in this case) is a CM type 1.

Ok, but is Anos's mind a concept?

 

[Dog3352]

He should just make a Q and A at this point or ask a Staff member because it seems he's not going to take your word for it.

No, that's not necessary, he's just taking the skill out of context.

Both the description of Madness Manipulation and Type 3 say that the opponent induces Madness in the target

Madness Manipulation is the ability to affect the sanity of other beings, usually in a manner that causes them to become insane. While often associated with Mind Manipulation, the methods used to achieve this effect tend to vary from character to character, with a number of these means overlapping with other, separate abilities instead.

3: Cognition: Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

 

[Dog3352]

As u can see, yeah.

I have to ask, can you read more than 5 words of the entire sentence?

This is literally inducing madness in the target, explain to me how this affects a literal concept without a single feat.

 

[Dog3352]

Yes, this total distortion of Madness is simply a joke, I'm going to school anyway, so I won't respond for a good few hours.

Something that literally needs to affect the target's perception/mind can simply ignore the fact that the opponent is a literal concept for no reason at all

Ok, but is Anos's mind a concept?

Venuz is a concept, no Anos.

Venuz passively regenerates Anos, is not affected by Madness, and can passively destroy the target.

 

[Tanin_iver]

This is literally inducing madness in the target, explain to me how this affects a literal concept without a single feat.

This is the target inducing the Madness to themselves. Don't try to change the power itself. Explain to me how The Concept that has cognition resists if it doesn't have a feat of resistance?

 

[Dog3352]

This is the target inducing the Madness to themselves. Don't try to change the power itself. Explain to me how The Concept that has cognition resists if it doesn't have a feat of resistance?

Because it is necessary to go through the abstraction itself to be able to affect anything on the target, that is literally the objective of AE1, it is basically as if the character's mind itself was a concept, and to affect the mind it would be necessary to affect the concept itself.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

This is the target inducing the Madness to themselves. Don't try to change the power itself. Explain to me how The Concept that has cognition resists if it doesn't have a feat of resistance?

Then where there is feat that shows Dante's Madness 3, effect the concept in the first place. Without effecting there is no question for whether it can resist or not.

 

[Tatsumi504]

@Robo432343 why didn't you let this shit storm stay dead?
Same arguments as before, Passive madness hax vs passive CM 1 destruction. Venuzdonoa, MEoCD just erases dante along with his madness hax, shekina

 

[Tanin_iver]

Because it is necessary to go through the abstraction itself to be able to affect anything on the target, that is literally the objective of AE1, it is basically as if the character's mind itself was a concept, and to affect the mind it would be necessary to affect the concept itself.

This is not Type 2

Users of this type rely upon directly interacting with the minds of their victims, utilizing various forms of mental attacks to drive them insane.

This is Type 3

Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

Hope u are able to discern the difference now. Venuz and Anos affect themself as a side effect of the nature of Dante, like literally written on the explanation that u somehow missed, that the act of perceiving is affecting them not Dante trying to affect their mind in some way or going through some abstractions.

Then where there is feat that shows Dante's Madness 3, effect the concept in the first place. Without effecting there is no question for whether it can resist or not.

Because Madness 3 doesn't deal with the character affecting the target, but the target affecting themselves through perception alone(read above). It is not reliant on the character having to affect the targets in the first place. Those are separate powers entirely. The act of perception has to deal with the mind of target, not its abstraction. Also, Dante can literally affect inanimate objects(literally mindless) just to be clear.

@Robo432343 why didn't you let this shit storm stay dead?

Can agree, just let it die atp.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I am not here trying to argue the act of perceiving something is different for everyone, you are. You need to prove the claim that the act of perceiving which is literally irrelevant to whether u are Soul or Information or Concept is different in this case. This ability is fully durability circumventing because the character is not forcibly trying to induce its effects, the target is self inducing it to themselves. Its not that complicated to understand this.

Burden is not you. Not on me who is arguing based on wiki rules. If you disagree make a staff thread and make your arguments gets accepted and make that listed in AE page that Information= Soul = CM

 

[Tanin_iver]

Burden is not you.

Nani

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Nani

 

[Spectra_Schiffer]

It's nice to see that my first thread is still going, but it's scary to remember that this was my first thread

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Because Madness 3 doesn't deal with the character affecting the target, but the target affecting themselves through perception alone(read above). It is not reliant on the character having to affect the targets in the first place. Those are separate powers entirely. The act of perception has to deal with the mind of target, not its abstraction. Also, Dante can literally affect inanimate objects(literally mindless) just to be clear.

You got it wrong. It effect the characters because they look at a Madness 3 being, without looking them there would be no effect, meaning nature of which the type 3 being and up to what level they can effect them does matters. And Venuzdonoa is a formless blade which exists just as a concept.

 

[Tanin_iver]

It's nice to see that my first thread is still going, but it's scary to remember that this was my first thread

Blame @Robo432343

You got it wrong. It effect the characters because they look at a Madness 3 being, without looking them there would be no effect, meaning nature of which the type 3 being and up to what level they can effect them does matters.

Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

Just attempting to perceive them is enough as said in the explanation itself.
Anyways, its better to declare ceasefire for both our sanity's sake and let this thread die.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Blame @Robo432343


Just attempting to perceive them is enough as said in the explanation itself.

perceiving means seeing only. So it means madness type 3 beings effects the characters not the other way around, which you were arguing till now.

Anyways, its better to declare ceasefire for both our sanity's sake and let this thread die.

Agree.

 

[Tanin_iver]

perceiving means seeing only.

Not exactly.
Perceive:

1. (a) to attain awareness or understanding of; (b) to regard as being such
2. to become aware of through the senses

See:

1. (a) to perceive by the eye; (b) to perceive or detect as if by sight
2. (a) to be aware of; (b) to imagine as a possibility; (c) to form a mental picture of; (d) to perceive the meaning or importance of;

So it means madness type 3 beings effects the characters not the other way around

Heh? What do you even mean bro?

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Not exactly.
Perceive:

See:

I mean seeing comes under perceiving too.

Heh? What do you even mean bro?

You said type 3 beings doesn't effect/induce other characters but they effect themselves. But it's the other way around. The type 3 beings effects them after they were perceived or looked into them. And it depends on what level type 3 being has nature is. For example some only make other characters loose their sanity where some can directly kill them based on the feats shown. Same way it's also be showed to have a feat that they can effect other characters who are abstraction type 1 CM and not simply assume it.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Anos FRA

 

[Tanin_iver]

You said type 3 beings doesn't effect/induce other characters but they effect themselves. But it's the other way around.

This is Type 2

Users of this type rely upon directly interacting with the minds of their victims, utilizing various forms of mental attacks to drive them insane.

This is Type 3

Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

I don't see a point with discussing this anymore. You disagree with the wikis definitions. The wiki itself contradicts your claims. You are trying to forcefully conflate Type 2 to Type 3 when the wiki itself declares them as distinct types.
Type 3 is a side effect. Type 2 the user attacks the mind to induce effects.
I understand that u don't want to acknowledge the difference between them but it is what it is.

I mean seeing comes under perceiving too.

Here, seeing/perceiving is meant with regards to cognition or comprehension, just pointing that out.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I don't see a point with discussing this anymore. You disagree with the wikis definitions. The wiki itself contradicts your claims. You are trying to forcefully conflate Type 2 to Type 3 when the wiki itself declares them as distinct types.
Type 3 is a side effect. Type 2 the user attacks the mind to induce effects.
I understand that u don't want to acknowledge the difference between them but it is what it is.

I am not disagreeing with wiki definitions. I am only saying without perciveing the madness type 3 being one can't be effected by it. That's all. Though my main point is this.

For example some only make other characters loose their sanity where some can directly kill them based on the feats shown. Same way it's also be showed to have a feat that they can effect other characters who are abstraction type 1 CM and not simply assume it.

Even in madness type 3 page it's specified there are limitations to how much level you can effect them. Either loose sanity or kill.

Those who possess this type drive others insane as a side-effect of the nature of their being, with the very act of looking at or attempting to perceive them being enough to send victims into a state of madness or terror. More extreme forms are capable of outright killing those who suffer from their effects.

The same way you can't assume abstraction type 1 CM will be effected too. There should be a feat for it. But your ignoring this part completely.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Even in madness type 3 page it's specified there are limitations to how much level you can effect them. Either loose sanity or kill.

Just pointing out that losing sanity is an incap on its own. Also, it was specified in the thread before, the lowest fodders can make make people kill themselves gouge out their eyeballs and eat them. Demons themselves don't feel fear and or despair. The High Tiers like the likes of Dante can affect weaker Demons and even inanimate objects which don't even have any mind(basically immune) for cognition in the first place.

The same way you can't assume abstraction type 1 CM will be effected too.

Idk, why u keep repeating this. It only matters if its Type 2, because the user has to affect the mind of the victim. For Type 3, the victims affect themselves by perceiving the user. Please, stop conflating the two. Their abstraction is irrelevant as the abstraction doesn't stop them from perceiving their opponents.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Madness type 3 is truly one of the biggest bullshit on the wiki; while cognition and perception themselves are nothing more than mental processes, our pages mentione of a kind of madness that beyond even the biochemical processes and metaphysical mind.

 

[Robo432343]

We all forgot that Dante’s madness hax is 4-D
So yh it’s bypassing coz Anos or Venuz does not have higher dimensional existence lol and does not have the layers to resist it

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

What is even being argued about here?

 

[Huesito88]

What is even being argued about here?

What's accepted in the standards

 

[Robo432343]

What is even being argued about here?

They saying that Anos can bypass Dante’s madness hax because he does not have feats of interacting with CM 1 based abstract existence

But we completely forgot that Dante’s madness hax is 4-D with more than 20 layers

 

[Dog3352]

What is even being argued about here?

Taking advantage of the fact that you are someone very experienced in VBW, and will definitely know this, there is an issue that (for some reason) is being discussed in the CRT.

Can Madness Manipulation type 3 affect someone with AE1 in CM1 without any ability to interact/affect CM1?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I mean, I guess it depends on how the person with AE Type 1 perceives the world.

If an AE Type 1 being sees the world just like a normal person does, then there's no reason they shouldn't be blinded if they stared directly at the sun or if someone used Light Manipulation on them. Esepcially they don't have any feats showing that's something they can handle. I would imagine the same would go for Madness Type 3. It's based on someone seeing something so horrifying or infinite or incomprehensible that your mind can't understand it properly and goes insane in an attempt to do so.

It also depends on what the AE Type 1 being has seen before. In some verses, seeing the being who exists outside of the universe can make a person go mad, but if a character has already seen something like that and been fine, then the Madness Type 3 wouldn't have any effect, as stated on the ability page.

Those who are capable of perceiving, understanding and/or experiencing that which is naturally extreme or incomprehensible should be able to ignore this.

 

[Dog3352]

I mean, I guess it depends on how the person with AE Type 1 perceives the world.

If an AE Type 1 being sees the world just like a normal person does, then there's no reason they shouldn't be blinded if they stared directly at the sun or if someone used Light Manipulation on them. Esepcially they don't have any feats showing that's something they can handle. I would imagine the same would go for Madness Type 3. It's based on someone seeing something so horrifying or infinite or incomprehensible that your mind can't understand it properly and goes insane in an attempt to do so.

It also depends on what the AE Type 1 being has seen before. In some verses, seeing the being who exists outside of the universe can make a person go mad, but if a character has already seen something like that and been fine, then the Madness Type 3 wouldn't have any effect, as stated on the ability page.

In the case of Venuzdonoa, she is a concept in itself, she has no mind or anything, just a passive weapon that is a concept in itself.
In this case, the easiest question would be to say whether Madness type 3 can affect a CM type 1 without feats the ability to affect the CM, or whether it would be able to affect a character whose existence is literally a concept, without mind, thought, soul , emotions, etc.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

In the case of Venuzdonoa, she is a concept in itself, she has no mind or anything, just a passive weapon that is a concept in itself.

Is the argument that Dante can madness hax Venuzdonoa?

You can't really use a cognition-based hax on something that doesn't have a mind and doesn't perceive things. Just like you can't use soul manipulation on a rock unless there's some weird feat of that being the case.

 

[Huesito88]

Is the argument that Dante can madness hax Venuzdonoa?

You can't really use a cognition-based hax on something that doesn't have a mind and doesn't perceive things. Just like you can't use soul manipulation on a rock unless there's some weird feat of that being the case.

Dante has feats of this (As stupid as that sounds, but this is fiction)

 

[Robo432343]

Who tf cares about venuz tho
Anos does not embody Venus, he is the one who is being madness haxed

 

[Dog3352]

Is the argument that Dante can madness hax Venuzdonoa?

You can't really use a cognition-based hax on something that doesn't have a mind and doesn't perceive things. Just like you can't use soul manipulation on a rock unless there's some weird feat of that being the case.

If I'm not mistaken, Dante is able to affect objects with Madness Type 3, so my question is whether he can affect something that is a concept in itself, something that has no physical aspect, no soul, mind, emotions or anything like that, simply a concept in the shape of a sword.

 

[Dog3352]

Who tf cares about venuz tho
Anos does not embody Venus, he is the one who is being madness haxed

Passive HGR, therefore impotent, since if Anos kills himself, Venuz will regenerate him, and will passively destroy anything that threatens it.