An attempt at making an Outsider Match work #1 (Deva vs Griffith)

[Chariot190]

Magic does have this.

It can hit incorporeal creatures that reside on the ethereal plane.

That's the thing tho, The DS can do that, and has done that. It's actually the basis for its NPI and why it can strike noncorporal entities or wound a God Hand who exists simultaneously on the ethereal plane not withstanding there's layers of the astral plane in Berserk and Femto resides in like the second deepest layer

This straight-up doesn't work on Griffith, Guts' attacks went straight through him, even after numerous point-blank attacks.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's the thing tho, The DS can do that, and has done that. It's actually the basis for its NPI and why it can strike noncorporal entities or wound a God Hand who exists simultaneously on the ethereal plane not withstanding there's layers of the astral plane in Berserk and Femto resides in like the second deepest layer

This straight-up doesn't work on Griffith, Guts' attacks went straight through him, even after numerous point-blank attacks.

No no, you see. Incorporeal is a form of non-corporeality and intangibility. Think, a shadow.

But when this type of creature also reside in the Ethereal, it normally can't even be reached (it's simultaneously spatial intangibility and spectral).

It's double intangibility.

Abjuration and force magic doesn't care. The Deva has access to Dispel Evil, an abjuration magic that can target the double intangibility (and even more, straight banish evil back to their plane of origin).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

not withstanding there's layers of the astral plane in Berserk and Femto resides in like the second deepest layer

These things can also be targeted normally by magic, ignoring even the incorporeal and ethereal statuses, btw. The Deva itself has that property, it exists simultaneously in up to 3 planes.

 

[Chariot190]

No no, you see. Incorporeal is a form of non-corporeality and intangibility. Think, a shadow.

But when this type of creature also reside in the Ethereal, it normally can't even be reached (it's simultaneously spatial intangibility and spectral).

It's double intangibility.

Abjuration and force magic doesn't care. The Deva has access to Dispel Evil, an abjuration magic that can target the double intangibility (and even more, straight banish evil back to their plane of origin).

None of that explains how he can hit Griffith though.

And I don't mean multiple types of intangibility, I mean literally Intangibility+1. Not to mention, does Deva even have the range to interact with Griffith? Tens of meters ain't cutting it, you need at least an interdimensional range (Probably 3).

Guts has a cool sword that can wound Slan, who's real body exists on the Astral Plane, and he can do so by interacting with a body that isn't that body. Despite that, The Dragon Slayer is incapable of interacting with Griffith.
What you're describing Deva can do just sounds like what the DS can do, which as mentioned, is powerless against Griffith.

I think you're conflating "double intangibility" (as in, multiple forms of intangibility at once) with layered intangibility,

These things can also be targeted normally by magic, ignoring even the incorporeal and ethereal statuses, btw. The Deva itself has that property, it exists simultaneously in up to 3 planes.

3 planes, but how deep? Femto can **** around 3 layers deep (layers not in hax potency, but rather the astral world has stages to it, think almost like circles of hell type shit). It's not just interdimensional per say, but layers into it.
But again, I think youre confusing having multiple types of intangibility with layered intangibility. What you're describing seems similar to the Other God Hand and how they work, but in Femto's case, he's clearly just built diff and stuff that works on them doesn't on him.

I could be misunderstanding you but eh.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Not to mention, does Deva even have the range to interact with Griffith? Tens of meters ain't cutting it, you need at least an interdimensional range (Probably 3).

Has that with Magic. Profiles are outdated as ****.

I think you're conflating "double intangibility" (as in, multiple forms of intangibility at once) with layered intangibility,

I'm saying it's both. When you are in the Ethereal, you are incorporeal. So when two creatures exist in the Ethereal, they interact with each other. A creature that's incorporeal while at the same time residing in the Ethereal, it's intangible to other Ethereal creatures. Abjuration and force magic bypass that. (And also Ghost Touch weapons, but Deva doesn't have that)

3 planes, but how deep? Femto can **** around 3 layers deep (layers not in hax potency, but rather the astral world has stages to it, think almost like circles of hell type shit). It's not just interdimensional per say, but layers into it.

Unironically: All of them

The Abyss has 666 known layers. Doesn't matter if a demon is at the astral, layer #44 of the abyss and the grey wastes plane, while another is at the ethereal, layer #34 of the abyss and limbo. The same fireball hits both if they aren't incorporeal in the first place. (If they are incorporeal, it's 50/50)

 

[Chariot190]

I'm saying it's both. When you are in the Ethereal, you are incorporeal. So when two creatures exist in the Ethereal, they interact with each other. A creature that's incorporeal while at the same time residing in the Ethereal, it's intangible to other Ethereal creatures. Abjuration and force magic bypass that. (And also Ghost Touch weapons, but Deva doesn't have that)

So basically just those two attacks only. Now the question is, does Griffith and those share the same mechanics behind the layered bullshit, because we still need to know if the layered NPI is the right type.

The Abyss has 666 known layers. Doesn't matter if a demon is at the astral, layer #44 of the abyss and the grey wastes plane, while another is at the ethereal, layer #34 of the abyss and limbo. The same fireball hits both if they aren't incorporeal in the first place. (If they are incorporeal, it's 50/50)

Pretty broken but ok.

How good is Deva's causality resistance? I ask because Griffith >>> Guts, who has some passive resistance (as in, is that layered too?).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So basically just those two attacks only. Now the question is, does Griffith and those share the same mechanics behind the layered bullshit, because we still need to know if the layered NPI is the right type.

The Deva as abjuration has:

• Dispel Magic (power nullification that can be targetted or AoE; if targetted, it can cancel any personal buff, including passive abilities, for at least 6 seconds; if AoE, it applies the same, but cannot affect Griffiths personal equipment) [12 layers] [can use it at-will]
• Dispel Evil (produces an Aura that can protect against physical attacks (including magic based), deflecting them (we have detailed it in the past as a attack reflection). If the Deva then touches an evil creature, it produces de BFR effect) [10 layers to resist the BFR] [can use it at-will]
• Holy Aura (produces the same kind of aura as Dispel Evil, in addition to giving 4 layers of resistances; if Griffith attacks the Deva in melee, it can get blinded) [the blindness is 13 layers] [can use it at-will]
• Blade Barrier (both an abjuration and force effect; exactly what it sounds, it produces a wall of moving blades to damage; can also be used as a pseudo shield) [can be used only once per day, tho]

How good is Deva's causality resistance? I ask because Griffith >>> Guts, who has some passive resistance (as in, is that layered too?).

The Deva has a passive "field" that cancels supernatural effects that try to affect it. This is its Spell Resistance, which can straight up cancel even AoE effects that try to interact with it up to 20 layers.
If Griffith bypasses that, the Deva still has 12 to 14 layers of resistances to the other effects (the Causality specifically it's very likely one that scales to the 14 layers).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Now the question is, does Griffith and those share the same mechanics behind the layered bullshit, because we still need to know if the layered NPI is the right type.

Now this specifically: When a creature is Ethereal, they are made up of the same thing that Ghosts are made up (is stupidly extensive what that is, as the Ethereal is also called the everything, or that it is made up of the possibility of things).

The Astral Plane is effectively it's counterpart, as when a creature enters it, it's made up of "the mental/psychic" stuff.

So if you are Ethereal: Made up of whatever a spirit is composed of.
If you are Astral: Made up of whatever the mind is composed of.

Both of these things together can make up the full soul, which are also conceptual in D&D (they are called Petitioners when they are reduced to just "a soul", and are tied to an Outer Plane; the abyss is one of those).

The Deva, as an Outsider, is also its own soul in body and mind.

 

[Chariot190]

idk what the **** you're talking about anymore, I don't do D&D Gonna need this in English.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

idk what the **** you're talking about anymore, I don't do D&D Gonna need this in English.

TL;DR
The Deva likely resists or straight up cancels anything Griffith does to it, to then eventually BFR him straight to whatever realm spawns whatever the **** Femto is (?)

Edit: Oh yeah, that deflecting aura I mentioned? The Deva also has it passively as well on top of everything else

 

[Chariot190]

I'm going to need an actual explanation in English, otherwise we wouldn't even be doingt this.

to then eventually BFR him straight to whatever realm spawns whatever the **** Femto is (?)

And then what? He'd just come back? If anything that'd make it harder to actually kill him as he can exist there and in the place they're fighting simultaneously.
Femto has some pseudo omni-presence/multi-location abstract type shit going on.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

then what? He'd just come back? If anything that'd make it harder to actually kill him as he can exist there and in the place they're fighting simultaneously.

So incon, pretty much, as the deva can simply keep BFR.

Femto has some pseudo omni-presence/multi-location abstract type shit going on.

Outsiders are also tied to their plane of origin, as they are born from them through the belief of mortals, so effectively they can keep coming back, though unfortunately not fast enough to matter for this fight

I'm going to need an actual explanation in English, otherwise we wouldn't even be doingt this.

Intangible ghosts can interact with each other. If one of them is deemed incorporeal, then the other ghost can't touch it. Apply that also to mental/conceptual shit, and that's the layers of NPI force and abjuration effects interact with.

 

[Chariot190]

Intangible ghosts can interact with each other. If one of them is deemed incorporeal, then the other ghost can't touch it. Apply that also to mental/conceptual shit, and that's the layers of NPI force and abjuration effects interact with.

Wait do we assume ghosts by default can't touch each other? I was under the impression ghosts can just do that in general, if we assume ghosts need NPI and add that to the scaling chains of intangibility bullshit I could probably wank meek out a few upgrades for things.
this included

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Wait do we assume ghosts by default can't touch each other? I was under the impression ghosts can just do that in general, if we assume ghosts need NPI and add that to the scaling chains of intangibility bullshit I could probably wank meek out a few upgrades for things.
this included

No no. That's how it is in D&D ayy

When you are in the Ethereal, you are a ghost. A creature on the material can't touch it except when you use magic (50/50). If the games also considers you "Incorporeal", then you are also intangible to other ghosts while in the Ethereal. Abjuration Magic and Force effects bypass that.

 

[Chariot190]

game

is this canon lore, or fucky game loophole rulings

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

is this canon lore, or fucky game loophole rulings

Kinda both, because of what it means to be ethereal, which is what I explained above

Edit: Let me get you some scans ayy

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Kinda both, because of what it means to be ethereal, which is what I explained above

Edit: Let me get you some scans ayy

TL;DR When an incorporeal creature (meaning, intangible) on the Material Plane, converts itself to the Ethereal Plane, they retain their natural intangibility even from the existence of Etherealness. They become effectively intangible+1, as you say.

From an in-game perspective, the relevant creature that displays this trait by default, would be The Ghost, as they are both natives of the Material and the Ethereal, and have the incorporeal subtype whether manifested or not.

 

[Peppersalt43]

Bump, lets continue the discussion

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well, voting incon for now.

 

[Peppersalt43]

@Chariot190 or @noninho, you wanna say anything about this?

 

[Chariot190]

not right now ive been busy the past few days and my free time has gone toward Majora CRT/RE4. ill reply eventually thou if nobody else does, idk when eventually is though

 

[Peppersalt43]

OK, what about you, @noninho?

 

[Peppersalt43]

Well that was fun

Bump

 

[Nierre]

berserk revisions

 

[Peppersalt43]

berserk revisions

Oh for ***** sake, the one time people actually used this ******* thread

What's getting affected?

 

[Nierre]

no im saying there should be berserk revisions not that there are any.

Berserk on the wiki is outdated

 

[Peppersalt43]

Anyway, bump

 

[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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[Peppersalt43]

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