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An attempt at making an Outsider Match work #1 (Deva vs Griffith)

Griffith starts with what is basically predestined causality manip and social influencing (yes actually, he exudes enough big dick energy to make people religious fanatics of him).
 
Chariot190 said:
Griffith starts with what is basically predestined causality manip and social influencing (yes actually, he exudes enough big dick energy to make people religious fanatics of him).
Click to expand...
The astral deva resists both

Hey, Pepper, where are they fighting? This will determine the starting phase of the fight for the Deva, as they will always appear as animals equal to them in strength to others. This animal will depend on the sort of area they are in, as they change it based on the environment.

The animal form does not exclude them of using their other abilities.

However, the Deva might go into their true form immediately if it can determine that Griffith is evil (which they can do by using Detect Evil). Though for that, it needs to be a bit closer, as the ability only works up to 18 meters.

Scans of their overall behavior.
 
How good is the social influence res? It doesn't explain or give an example?
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I personally don't have access to the priest spell compendium, so have asked for other supporters to elaborate.
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The spells are
This spell makes the priest appear weak, sick, injured, and emotionally distressed so as to engender a sympathetic response in anyone encountering the priest. It effectively disguises any unusual physical characteristics of menacing (fangs or claws, for example) and makes any drawn weapons or worn armor appear to be on menacing objects or heavy, but tattered, clothing (such as making a sword appear to be a walking staff). While this spell is in effect any creature of Low intelligence or greater (Intelligence 5+) except a crocodile or were-crocodile, that enters the area of effect must make a successful saving throw vs. spell or immediately move to the priest’s side at its full normal moment rate or faster to offer assistance. Weapons and shields are mopped in the haste to provide aid unless already sheathed or strapped on. Should the priest choose to attack as would-be benefactors approach, the latter are automatically surprised, and the priest has a 4 attack bonus during the round of surprise. This spell lasts for up to 1 hour per level of the priest. Any attack by the priest instantly ends the spell. Those who observe the priest cast the spell are also immune to its effects.
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This spell fills the shukenja with great oratory ability, allowing the priest to explain the wonders of his or her religion to others. When cast, the shukenja sermonizes about the precepts of his or her ethos, attempting to sway or convert his listeners. For the duration of the spell casting, the shukenja is considered to have an 18 Charisma. Furthermore, the caster's words are inspired, providing hope and faith to all who listen. Everyone in the area of effect must make a saving throw vs death. Those who successfully make the saving throw are uneffected by the spell; those who fail are affected. They understand the true meaning of the shukenja's words and become followers of his or her ways.
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Also like, having Charisma above 18 the game just treats the character as basically magic with early versions having stuff like "If you have a Charisma score of over 18 you automatically generate a fasciate sspell-like effect" which has the following properties:
Causes the target to see the caster as a person they trust and love if the target fails the saving throw. Non-intelligent creatures are not affected. The target responds appropriately, following the caster around as long as this doesn't pose a risk to their safety. The target can be persuaded to perform tasks for the caster - each request allows the target to roll 3d6. If this total exceeds the caster's Charisma, the spell is shattered. Requests that cost the target something add +1 to the roll, and requests that put them in harm's way add +2 to +6. When the spell is broken, the target is likely filled with rage and hate for the caster who manipulated their emotions so cruelly. The spell does not end until it is broken.

The spell can be used on creatures of animal intelligence, but such creatures remain under the effect of the spell for only 1d4 days. If the caster has treated the creature well, fed it, and attended to its needs, there is a 2% chance per point of Charisma that the creature willingly befriends the caster after this duration. Otherwise, the creature simply leaves quietly (if it was well treated but does not become a friend), or attacks (if it was ill treated).
Click to expand...
All in all a Deva isn't really going to be swayed by Griffith's words or anything.
 
Griffiths charisma doesn't really require words. Though some of that does sound a lot like Griffiths stuff, but at the same time, his was so potent that someone actively rebelling against him, the natural order, and basically God began having a mental breakdown being in his presence and was convinced if he made contact he'd give up everything despite literally being a war and hating Griffith.. But shrug.

Does Deva have causality resistance, I don't see it on the profile? Griffith has a passive causality res that makes it so he can't even really be touched or effected by anything and also makes it so he ultimately wins.

Griffith also just whipped out some new stuff so idk what we wanna do about that
 
azontr said:
Anything stopping Griffith's passives?
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maybe Deva's reality warping, but it won't be enough with this

" Non-Physical Interaction (Easily destroyed Ganishka's fog form which exists on astral plane), Incorporeality (Cannot be harmed by any normal means), Spatial Manipulation (Could grab a space-cutting slash from Skull Knight's Sword of Actuation by warping space), Attack Reflection (Should be able, like Void, to reflect attacks via his space-warping)"
Voting Femto, as much as i HATE HIM LOL
 
Guts' dragon slayer was utterly incapable of interacting with him in recent chapters, phasing right through him, even after numerous attacks. And that thing has NPI and can strike beings who's true self is on the astral plane so Griffith has some layered shit going on.

But his profile kinda stinky so shrug
 
Chariot190 said:
Guts' dragon slayer was utterly incapable of interacting with him in recent chapters, phasing right through him, even after numerous attacks. And that thing has NPI and can strike beings who's true self is on the astral plane so Griffith has some layered shit going on.

But his profile kinda stinky so shrug
Click to expand...
layered incorporeality? think it configure stomp, now, doesn't it?
 
I'ts not really layered incorporeality and more due fact that guts got haxed stomped by passive casual/plot hax and was unable to do anything to him, i'm think.
 
Axl233 said:
I'ts not really layered incorporeality and more due fact that guts got haxed stomped by passive casual/plot hax and was unable to do anything to him, i'm think.
Click to expand...
I can end up sounding like a fanboy, but i don't really think plot hax/script is enough to justify being against NPI+Skilled Guts+Skilled Caska+a f*ck ton of stuff
on that forest with a ton of elfs
on a story on the level of Berserk.

And even if it's not layered, those 3 things combined may not make Deva able to affect him in any way at all
 
noninho said:
I can end up sounding like a fanboy, but i don't really think plot hax/script is enough to justify being against NPI+Skilled Guts+Skilled Caska+a f*ck ton of stuff
on that forest with a ton of elfs
on a story on the level of Berserk.

And even if it's not layered, those 3 things combined may not make Deva able to affect him in any way at all
Click to expand...
Man that sucks, i was really cheering for Griffith to get smited by a DnD celestial here.I'm don't want to give him a W vote.
 
Axl233 said:
I'ts not really layered incorporeality and more due fact that guts got haxed stomped by passive casual/plot hax and was unable to do anything to him, i'm think.
Click to expand...
Layered intangibility through passive causality hax 🤔
which says a lot given it wounded slan, who also has passives, and guts has some minor degree of resistance to that as well
 
Peppersalt43 said:
Maybe we should wait for the D&D supporters to show up before making claims like that?
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for it to get in equal terms it would require Deva to get layered NPI, which he doesn't have any in his powers list

and i mentioned other things that would make him harder to hit
 
noninho said:
for it to get in equal terms it would require Deva to get layered NPI
Click to expand...
Magic does have this.

It can hit incorporeal creatures that reside on the ethereal plane. Half of the time, tbf. But it is entirely possible for the Deva to interact, even through causality (which is resisted).
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Magic does have this.

It can hit incorporeal creatures that reside on the ethereal plane.
Click to expand...
That's the thing tho, The DS can do that, and has done that. It's actually the basis for its NPI and why it can strike noncorporal entities or wound a God Hand who exists simultaneously on the ethereal plane not withstanding there's layers of the astral plane in Berserk and Femto resides in like the second deepest layer

This straight-up doesn't work on Griffith, Guts' attacks went straight through him, even after numerous point-blank attacks.
 
Chariot190 said:
That's the thing tho, The DS can do that, and has done that. It's actually the basis for its NPI and why it can strike noncorporal entities or wound a God Hand who exists simultaneously on the ethereal plane not withstanding there's layers of the astral plane in Berserk and Femto resides in like the second deepest layer

This straight-up doesn't work on Griffith, Guts' attacks went straight through him, even after numerous point-blank attacks.
Click to expand...
No no, you see. Incorporeal is a form of non-corporeality and intangibility. Think, a shadow.

But when this type of creature also reside in the Ethereal, it normally can't even be reached (it's simultaneously spatial intangibility and spectral).

It's double intangibility.

Abjuration and force magic doesn't care. The Deva has access to Dispel Evil, an abjuration magic that can target the double intangibility (and even more, straight banish evil back to their plane of origin).
 
Chariot190 said:
not withstanding there's layers of the astral plane in Berserk and Femto resides in like the second deepest layer
Click to expand...
These things can also be targeted normally by magic, ignoring even the incorporeal and ethereal statuses, btw. The Deva itself has that property, it exists simultaneously in up to 3 planes.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
No no, you see. Incorporeal is a form of non-corporeality and intangibility. Think, a shadow.

But when this type of creature also reside in the Ethereal, it normally can't even be reached (it's simultaneously spatial intangibility and spectral).

It's double intangibility.

Abjuration and force magic doesn't care. The Deva has access to Dispel Evil, an abjuration magic that can target the double intangibility (and even more, straight banish evil back to their plane of origin).
Click to expand...
None of that explains how he can hit Griffith though.

And I don't mean multiple types of intangibility, I mean literally Intangibility+1. Not to mention, does Deva even have the range to interact with Griffith? Tens of meters ain't cutting it, you need at least an interdimensional range (Probably 3).

Guts has a cool sword that can wound Slan, who's real body exists on the Astral Plane, and he can do so by interacting with a body that isn't that body. Despite that, The Dragon Slayer is incapable of interacting with Griffith.
What you're describing Deva can do just sounds like what the DS can do, which as mentioned, is powerless against Griffith.

I think you're conflating "double intangibility" (as in, multiple forms of intangibility at once) with layered intangibility,
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
These things can also be targeted normally by magic, ignoring even the incorporeal and ethereal statuses, btw. The Deva itself has that property, it exists simultaneously in up to 3 planes.
Click to expand...
3 planes, but how deep? Femto can **** around 3 layers deep (layers not in hax potency, but rather the astral world has stages to it, think almost like circles of hell type shit). It's not just interdimensional per say, but layers into it.
But again, I think youre confusing having multiple types of intangibility with layered intangibility. What you're describing seems similar to the Other God Hand and how they work, but in Femto's case, he's clearly just built diff and stuff that works on them doesn't on him.

I could be misunderstanding you but eh.
 
Chariot190 said:
Not to mention, does Deva even have the range to interact with Griffith? Tens of meters ain't cutting it, you need at least an interdimensional range (Probably 3).
Click to expand...
Has that with Magic. Profiles are outdated as ****.
Chariot190 said:
I think you're conflating "double intangibility" (as in, multiple forms of intangibility at once) with layered intangibility,
Click to expand...
I'm saying it's both. When you are in the Ethereal, you are incorporeal. So when two creatures exist in the Ethereal, they interact with each other. A creature that's incorporeal while at the same time residing in the Ethereal, it's intangible to other Ethereal creatures. Abjuration and force magic bypass that. (And also Ghost Touch weapons, but Deva doesn't have that)

Chariot190 said:
3 planes, but how deep? Femto can **** around 3 layers deep (layers not in hax potency, but rather the astral world has stages to it, think almost like circles of hell type shit). It's not just interdimensional per say, but layers into it.
Click to expand...
Unironically: All of them

The Abyss has 666 known layers. Doesn't matter if a demon is at the astral, layer #44 of the abyss and the grey wastes plane, while another is at the ethereal, layer #34 of the abyss and limbo. The same fireball hits both if they aren't incorporeal in the first place. (If they are incorporeal, it's 50/50)
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
I'm saying it's both. When you are in the Ethereal, you are incorporeal. So when two creatures exist in the Ethereal, they interact with each other. A creature that's incorporeal while at the same time residing in the Ethereal, it's intangible to other Ethereal creatures. Abjuration and force magic bypass that. (And also Ghost Touch weapons, but Deva doesn't have that)
Click to expand...
So basically just those two attacks only. Now the question is, does Griffith and those share the same mechanics behind the layered bullshit, because we still need to know if the layered NPI is the right type.
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
The Abyss has 666 known layers. Doesn't matter if a demon is at the astral, layer #44 of the abyss and the grey wastes plane, while another is at the ethereal, layer #34 of the abyss and limbo. The same fireball hits both if they aren't incorporeal in the first place. (If they are incorporeal, it's 50/50)
Click to expand...
Pretty broken but ok.

How good is Deva's causality resistance? I ask because Griffith >>> Guts, who has some passive resistance (as in, is that layered too?).
 
Chariot190 said:
So basically just those two attacks only. Now the question is, does Griffith and those share the same mechanics behind the layered bullshit, because we still need to know if the layered NPI is the right type.
Click to expand...
The Deva as abjuration has:
  • Dispel Magic (power nullification that can be targetted or AoE; if targetted, it can cancel any personal buff, including passive abilities, for at least 6 seconds; if AoE, it applies the same, but cannot affect Griffiths personal equipment) [12 layers] [can use it at-will]
  • Dispel Evil (produces an Aura that can protect against physical attacks (including magic based), deflecting them (we have detailed it in the past as a attack reflection). If the Deva then touches an evil creature, it produces de BFR effect) [10 layers to resist the BFR] [can use it at-will]
  • Holy Aura (produces the same kind of aura as Dispel Evil, in addition to giving 4 layers of resistances; if Griffith attacks the Deva in melee, it can get blinded) [the blindness is 13 layers] [can use it at-will]
  • Blade Barrier (both an abjuration and force effect; exactly what it sounds, it produces a wall of moving blades to damage; can also be used as a pseudo shield) [can be used only once per day, tho]

Chariot190 said:
How good is Deva's causality resistance? I ask because Griffith >>> Guts, who has some passive resistance (as in, is that layered too?).
Click to expand...
The Deva has a passive "field" that cancels supernatural effects that try to affect it. This is its Spell Resistance, which can straight up cancel even AoE effects that try to interact with it up to 20 layers.
If Griffith bypasses that, the Deva still has 12 to 14 layers of resistances to the other effects (the Causality specifically it's very likely one that scales to the 14 layers).
 
Chariot190 said:
Now the question is, does Griffith and those share the same mechanics behind the layered bullshit, because we still need to know if the layered NPI is the right type.
Click to expand...
Now this specifically: When a creature is Ethereal, they are made up of the same thing that Ghosts are made up (is stupidly extensive what that is, as the Ethereal is also called the everything, or that it is made up of the possibility of things).

The Astral Plane is effectively it's counterpart, as when a creature enters it, it's made up of "the mental/psychic" stuff.

So if you are Ethereal: Made up of whatever a spirit is composed of.
If you are Astral: Made up of whatever the mind is composed of.

Both of these things together can make up the full soul, which are also conceptual in D&D (they are called Petitioners when they are reduced to just "a soul", and are tied to an Outer Plane; the abyss is one of those).

The Deva, as an Outsider, is also its own soul in body and mind.
 
Chariot190 said:
idk what the **** you're talking about anymore, I don't do D&D Gonna need this in English.
Click to expand...
TL;DR
The Deva likely resists or straight up cancels anything Griffith does to it, to then eventually BFR him straight to whatever realm spawns whatever the **** Femto is (?)

Edit: Oh yeah, that deflecting aura I mentioned? The Deva also has it passively as well on top of everything else
 
I'm going to need an actual explanation in English, otherwise we wouldn't even be doingt this.
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
to then eventually BFR him straight to whatever realm spawns whatever the **** Femto is (?)
Click to expand...
And then what? He'd just come back? If anything that'd make it harder to actually kill him as he can exist there and in the place they're fighting simultaneously.
Femto has some pseudo omni-presence/multi-location abstract type shit going on.
 
Chariot190 said:
then what? He'd just come back? If anything that'd make it harder to actually kill him as he can exist there and in the place they're fighting simultaneously.
Click to expand...
So incon, pretty much, as the deva can simply keep BFR.

Chariot190 said:
Femto has some pseudo omni-presence/multi-location abstract type shit going on.
Click to expand...
Outsiders are also tied to their plane of origin, as they are born from them through the belief of mortals, so effectively they can keep coming back, though unfortunately not fast enough to matter for this fight

Chariot190 said:
I'm going to need an actual explanation in English, otherwise we wouldn't even be doingt this.
Click to expand...
Intangible ghosts can interact with each other. If one of them is deemed incorporeal, then the other ghost can't touch it. Apply that also to mental/conceptual shit, and that's the layers of NPI force and abjuration effects interact with.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Intangible ghosts can interact with each other. If one of them is deemed incorporeal, then the other ghost can't touch it. Apply that also to mental/conceptual shit, and that's the layers of NPI force and abjuration effects interact with.
Click to expand...
Wait do we assume ghosts by default can't touch each other? I was under the impression ghosts can just do that in general, if we assume ghosts need NPI and add that to the scaling chains of intangibility bullshit I could probably wank meek out a few upgrades for things.
this included
 
Chariot190 said:
Wait do we assume ghosts by default can't touch each other? I was under the impression ghosts can just do that in general, if we assume ghosts need NPI and add that to the scaling chains of intangibility bullshit I could probably wank meek out a few upgrades for things.
this included
Click to expand...
No no. That's how it is in D&D ayy

When you are in the Ethereal, you are a ghost. A creature on the material can't touch it except when you use magic (50/50). If the games also considers you "Incorporeal", then you are also intangible to other ghosts while in the Ethereal. Abjuration Magic and Force effects bypass that.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Kinda both, because of what it means to be ethereal, which is what I explained above

Edit: Let me get you some scans ayy
Click to expand...


TL;DR When an incorporeal creature (meaning, intangible) on the Material Plane, converts itself to the Ethereal Plane, they retain their natural intangibility even from the existence of Etherealness. They become effectively intangible+1, as you say.

From an in-game perspective, the relevant creature that displays this trait by default, would be The Ghost, as they are both natives of the Material and the Ethereal, and have the incorporeal subtype whether manifested or not.
 
not right now ive been busy the past few days and my free time has gone toward Majora CRT/RE4. ill reply eventually thou if nobody else does, idk when eventually is though
 
no im saying there should be berserk revisions not that there are any.

Berserk on the wiki is outdated
 
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