Altair's Low 2-C rating and other stuff

[Xerkser500]

Just a few questions regarding Altairs tiering.

First, where was it stated that Altair needed an infinite amount of time to create an infinite amount of universes?

Second, I've heard some things about Altair being able to destroy the Re:Creator Multiverse with her Holopscion. So if that's true, why is she only Low 2-C?

Third, I'm also hearing that the Re:Creator verse is like 5-D or higher, so if thata true shouldnt it mean even more than Altairs above Low 2-C?

That's all.

 

[Xerkser500]

bump

 

[RM97]

1) Don't remember anything like that being stated at all.

2) Yeah via chain reaction.

3) The verse cosmology was proposed since it doesn't follow the dimensional tiering page.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

1. At the very end of the series when she is laying on the ground next to Setsuna she says she will make infinite worlds for eternity, or something to that effect.

2. Shaking the pillar of the world and causing Multiversal collapse is done by messing with the fundamental mechanics of the verse, not with her own power.

3. They aren't higher-D. The worlds that are made are merely additional universes, not higher dimensions.

 

[RM97]

She never says that tho. What she exactly says is: If your existence causes this world to become warped, then I'll create another universe for you in another world in another story. Forever. This time... As long as you want. And... You'll write my story... In the story that I'll create. You and I will create an infinite story... an infinite world. Everything flows.

That doesn't imply she can create infinite universes in infinite time or for all of eternity. Just that she'll create a Universe for setsuna to exist in with her forever. Moreover, she says the term Mugen no monogatari wa.. Mugen no Sekai when saying the infinite story... an infinite world could easily be interpreted as she was talking about Infinite Stories and Worlds since Jap has no plurals. This is also backed up by her statement while saving setsuna she states that: You gave me the power of the Holopsicon. Twisting fate isn't the only thing it can do. It can create something from nothing. An infinite power! You created me. That means I can create Worlds too.


So TL;DR Holopsicon is much more than just Low 2-C and I think we can give her tiering as something like At least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-A

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@RM97

She specifically says they will be writing that infinite story forever. That is infinite time. Also taking "infinite world" as "infinite universes" is already generous. An infinite singular universe is still Low 2-C as it is still within the bound of a space-time continuum.

Saying something is an "infinite power" is not proof in and of itself and even if it was, infinite power is just High 3-A.

 

[RM97]

She never says that at all. What I quoted was from the anime ep 21 from 17:15 to 17:45. She never states or implirs that she will be writing that infinite story forever. Granted we don't know what the time frame is but it's definitely not forever as the "forever" was used in the context of creating a world for Setsuna to exist in forever if the one she just created gets warped.

You're missing the point. She stated directly in Ep 21 from 15:55 to 16:10 that You gave me the power of the Holopsicon. Twisting fate isn't the only thing it can do. It can create something from nothing. An infinite power! You created me. That means I can create Worlds too. Holopsicon was outright said to be able to create worlds and this was even before she was boosted by the Audience EoS. It's not just simple low 2-c as she's even able to create universes for both her and setsuna to exist in and affect them.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@RM97

Forever is the time given. She says that they WILL create an infinite world, implying it isn't done yet and will take time. Since only one time has been given, forever, we cannot assume anything less than that.

Yes, she can create worlds. She made a universe and will be able to make many more universes in the future. That's worlds. However, there is nothing to show that she makes multiple worlds simultaneously rather than just making a world one after the other over time.

 

[RM97]

Forever is used in a complete different context here. It's used to imply that setsuna can freely exist in the new world for all of eternity. She even says this: Forever. This time... As long as you want. We can't just automatically assume that the term used here can be also applied for her feat of creating infinite universes just because its in the given dialogue even though she used it for a different context. It's not even directly stated about how much time it could take for them to create infinite universes.

But that's not the case tho. Her dialogue with setsuna implies otherwise. Add to the fact that even regular creators in the verse are capable of creating and influencing multiple universes created by them due to how the verse mechanics work and both Setsuna and Altair eclipse these creators and were outright referred to as Gods and Creators EoS. So it's plausable that they can create and influence multiple universes at the same time EoS.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@RM97

"We can't just automatically assume that the term used here can be also applied for her feat of creating infinite universes just because its in the given dialogue even though she used it for a different context."

She has no infinite universe creation feat. She will eventually create infinite universes as part of her and Setsuna's infinite story. Here is the full quote: "Forever. This time... As long as you want. And... You'll write my story... In the story that I'll create. You and I will create an infinite story... an infinite world." Setsuna will now live forever and she and Altair will write each others' stories, eventually creating an infinite story. Because of this we know three things:

1. Setsuna will live forever.

2. She will be writing stories and therefore universes.

3. The story they will write will be infinite.

How is it not safe to assume that an infinite story that is written over time would take an infinite number of time, especially since the characters are confirmed to live for an infinite duration? Is it directly stated that "it will take us an infinite amount of time to create this infinite story"? No, but it can be safely assumed and must be assumed without substantial evidence to the contrary. Even if both interpretations are equally valid we need to play it safe to avoid inflation of stats, and I personally thing that the interpretations are not equally valid and that the infinite creation instantly interpretation has far less evidence. If you wish we can ask other members to give their opinions, but I really don't think this is what you say it is.

 

[Xerkser500]

Bump

 

[RM97]

Lmao I posted the full quote so I know it. The entire "infinite universes in infinite time" thing is refuted by two things.

1) Setsuna will live forever. Cool, but it was used in the context of her living in the universe Altair created. Here's the full quote: If your existence causes this world to become warped, then I'll create another universe for you in another world in another story. Forever. This time... As long as you want. And... You'll write my story... In the story that I'll create. You and I will create an infinite story... an infinite world. Everything flows. Altair is directly stating how she'll make another world for Setsuna if she wants to live in it forever or if she wants to live in it as long as she wants. Her being living forever along with Altair in a single universe isn't equivalent of any sort of proof of the claim that they'll create infinite universes over an infinite time.

2) Yes she'll be writing infinite stories and universes but how does that prove that it'll take them infinite amount of time? Them living on forever wasn't at all used to refer to them creating infinite universes. Granted we don't have any idea how long that it'll take but we can't use one of the elements from the dialogue supporting a different context to back up the feat. Otherwise I could use the This time... As long as you want. to say that both of them would create infinite universes as long as Setsuna wants which could be anywhere from few seconds to all of eternity. Add to the fact that Re:C verse has this verse mechanic where creators can even create as well as influence Higher Dimensional beings as well as multiple universes simultaneously via their thoughts and imaginations and both Altair and Setsuna vastly transcend these creators' powers. Like I originally said, the tiering for her should be something like: At least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-A because it fits with what you and I arguing here aka if it takes them forever to create infinite universes then it'll be undefined but going by on screen feats it'll be at least Low 2-C. But if the infinite universes creation takes them anywhere from a few seconds to even Eons, then it'll be 2-A due to infinity being divided by any number no matter how small or large or complex barring infinity itself would still result in Infinity.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@RM97

1. Yes, she already made a world for her and will continue to expand it, probably even infinitely.

2. No higher-D beings were manipulated. The hound displayed no property of being higher-D even if the panel described it as such. Just clearing that up. The normal creators are only capable of manipulating universes because of the fundamental creative power of the verse, not because of their own power. Altair is the only one who brute forced a universe into being.

3. Yes, it could take seconds or eons to make infinite universes, but it is never specified. We can't give someone a massive stat like 2-A because of something that is only alluded too especially when the possible and even implied timeframe is eternity.

We're going in circles. If you want to get more opinion I'm fine with that, but right now we're not getting anywhere.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with Assalt.

 

[Xerkser500]

Where is the "Hound is 5-D" bit even coming from if I can ask?

 

[RM97]

The hounds were outright stated to Transcend Time and Space by the Guidebook plus the book magane was reading had the exact same quotes and refers to the same author from the original Lovecraftian story of the Hounds of Tindalos by Frank Belknap Long which heavily implies that the story of the Hounds is a part of the verse.

The hound displayed no property of being higher-D even if the panel described it as such

A really moot point because the Hounds appeared for only 5-10 secs in the entire series only to kill the shopkeeper. Even in the original story, they were able to enter into the universe to kill Chalmers, the protagonist, in his own room. This doesn't at all disprove them being higher dimensional especially when fiction has shown multiple times how higher dimensional beings can enter and exist in regular Universes. Moreover, in the original Lovecraftian story too they were stated to exist in a realm beyond time and existed before the birth of creation and existence. I'm not saying that makes them "High Multiverse+" level but it doesn't disprove in any way that they themselves are higher dimensional beings and exist in a realm beyond time and existence.

especially when the possible and even implied timeframe is eternity

Again, where are you getting the "eternity/forever" as the possible or implied time frame from??? That "forever" thing was used in a completely unrelated context for a different thing about Setsuna. You can't just link that just because it's used in the same dialogue as the creation of infinite universes. Sure, we don't know the exact time frame at all but we can't assume it's going to take all of eternity just because the word forever was present in a completely unrelated sentence and context.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@RM97

Having higher dimensions, especially Lovecraftian dimensions, is something that needs to not only be said, but explicitly proven. It is an exceptionally powerful cosmology and thus needs exceptional evidence. If they really are beyond all time and space they would roflstomp Altair, and I bet you know how ridiculous that sounds.

It's not an unrelated context. It is literally 1 sentence before it and is directly related. Even if it wasn't, we know that A. They will create an infinite world. B. They have eternity to do so. It is not stated, shown, or implied that Altair would blip that infinite world into being, and the fact that they would take time with writing it pretty much implies the exact opposite.

But now we're back to going in circles about what is and isn't implied and what interpretation is correct, and like I've said that isn't going anywhere.

 

[RM97]

The thing is we were only shown that "The Hounds of Tindalos" from Lovecraftian fiction exists as part of the verse. There's no proof that everything in Lovecraftian fiction exists as part of the verse. Evidence is already there in the scans where the Hounds are outright stated to be the same thing as the OG Frank Belknap Long's story in Magane's book with the guidebook even providing additional information that the Hounds transcend all of Time and Space thereby solidifying their interpretation to be the same thing as the OG Lovecraftian creature. Also, why would them being beyond all time and space equate to they would roflstomp Altair??? Even in the original story of the Hounds they were never implied to be capable of doing anything on even Universal lvl, let alone High Multiverse+ lvl. Even Azzy created the page in the wiki Hounds of Tindalos and he also gives the same reasoning for their unknown tier. Does this disprove that the hounds are higher dimensional beings?? Not at all when the lore outright states them being coming from a realm that transcends existence, matter, force, time, and space. Furthermore, if we go by the verse cosmology mechanics where the creations/world created are parallel to the real world, then it'll just make the real world 5D in nature as it's parallel to the realm of the Hounds. Furthermore, it backed up by statements of how the real world is Multi-Layered and deep enough to create other worlds. It'll even make sense as to how the real world is completely different than most of the Storyworld universes and how Magane was able to summon the Hounds in the real world,etc. Only counters people can give is that "this will just make the humans 5D which isn't the case". That's not a counter at all especially when most fiction treat dimensional tiering differently than what we follow. There's verses where regular 3D humans exist in a 10D universe but it doesn't make them 10D. But that's a discussion for another day so I digress.

It's completely unrelated and exists two sentences before the infinite universes creation sentence. It's true that it's not shown or implied that Altair will just blip infinite universes into existence, but it's also not implied that it'll take them forever. But in order to solve this confusion, I proposed the At least Low 2-C, Possibly 2-A rating which complies with both interpretation of the dialogue aka At least Low 2-C if it takes them eternity to create infinite universes and possibly 2-A if it takes them any given time frame barring eternity/infinite time to create infinite universes. And if we apply the proposed cosmology of the verse where the real world is possibly 5D, then it'd be At least Low 2-C, Possibly High 2-A (Created, destroyed, and recreated a Universe casually for Setsuna and stated to create infinite universes in an unknown time frame which can be anywhere from instantaneous to all of eternity. Said Universe created by Altair for Setsuna is parallel to the Real World as per the guidebook which itself exists Parallel to the realms of the Hounds that exists beyond all of Time and Space with the real world being described as Multi-Layered and deep)

 

[Xerkser500]

Bump

 

[Xerkser500]

Bump

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'd ask Lancer to comment but he is MIA. Have any of the other re:CREATORS supporters been contacted about this?

 

[Xerkser500]

I'd ask Lancer to comment but he is MIA. Have any of the other re:CREATORS supporters been contacted about this?

Who else is notabe to comment here? I only knew of you and Celestial due to witnessing past threads is all.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

It seems like the other supporters are inactive, so it is just myself and Celestial.

If you want more staff opinion, feel free to contact several of the active members and politely request their input.

 

[Xerkser500]

Done. Ive messaged 3 staff for now.

 

[Dragopentling]

I'd only agree with 2A if she could create or destroy an infinite number of universes within a finite amount of time.

 

[Xerkser500]

Sorry, forgot about this. So bumping.