Allowing Rance on the wiki.

[Mr. Bambu]

If you can index the series without referencing its sexual content then i dont see a complaint.

this was, and I am reiterating this now, one of the core arguments for MGQ.

time is a circle.

 

[Deagonx]

If you can index the series without referencing its sexual content then i dont see a complaint.

You could do that for literally any series, so this argument is moot, lest you propose no verse is off limits no matter what.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

this was, and I am reiterating this now, one of the core arguments for MGQ.

time is a circle.

The difference is MGQhas sex at the core of its combat, Rance does not.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The difference is MGQhas sex at the core of its combat, Rance does not.

You just referenced a bit ago that sex does play into the gameplay directly, though. Raising stats and all that.

Not that this is actually the core issue being tackled, but even so the point is invalid.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

You just referenced a bit ago that sex does play into the gameplay directly, though. Raising stats and all that.

Not that this is actually the core issue being tackled, but even so the point is invalid.

Rance can potentially do this. No physical case of this happens during gamepllay, you gain exp from killing enemies like any other jrpg.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So you're saying you have a gameplay reason to go and do the nasty to increase your success in combat. So you have no real distinction from MGQ outside of how much it plays into it- not that this is an important facet of the discussion, I just want it to be known that this is the summary. Games can have a little bit of hardcore pornographic content, as a treat

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

So you're saying you have a gameplay reason to go and do the nasty to increase your success in combat. So you have no real distinction from MGQ outside of how much it plays into it- not that this is an important facet of the discussion, I just want it to be known that this is the summary. Games can have a little bit of hardcore pornographic content, as a treat

bro is intentionally misinterepting stuff atp

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Provided with every opportunity to display the verse as anything other than pornography, you have instead opted to paint it even worse, your only fallback being previously disregarded points and an irrelevant rating system.

If you lack the means to bolster your claim, then drop it and let Fandom decide whether the rape-to-gain-stat-amp verse is acceptable or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if the game is strongly focused on idealising rape, I obviously do not want it in our wiki.

However, other verses we feature are focused on idealising completely amoral and dystopian psychopathic supremacist and power-mad god-complex fascist nihilism (such as the "SCP Foundation"); completely joyless and hopeless might makes right, thrill-killing, fascism, and Nazi-level experimentation on human subjects (such as "Bleach"), and many similarly absolutely reprehensible memetic mind-cancers, including plenty of the ones listed in the "really dislike" section of my wiki user page, so I technically think it is a double-standard to target sexually reprehensible fictions only, given that genocidal totalitarian psychopathic nihilistic amoral supremacism, or torture, mutilation, degradation, and mass-murder done for giggles, as in "Rick and Morty" or "Family Guy", is probably even morally worse. Isn't "Bastard!!!" an even worse version of much the same themes that Rance has for example?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Well, if the game is strongly focused on idealising rape, I obviously do not want it in our wiki.

However, other verses we feature are focused on idealising completely amoral and dystopian psychopathic supremacist and power-mad god-complex fascist nihilism (such as the "SCP Foundation"); completely joyless and hopeless might makes right, thrill-killing, fascism, and Nazi-level experimentation on human subjects (such as "Bleach"), and many similarly absolutely reprehensible memetic mind-cancers, including plenty of the ones listed in the "really dislike" section of my wiki user page, so I technically think it is a double-standard to target sexually reprehensible fictions only, given that genocidal totalitarian psychopathic nihilistic amoral supremacism, or torture, mutilation, degradation, and mass-murder done for giggles, as in "Rick and Morty" or "Family Guy", is probably even morally worse. Isn't "Bastard!!!" an even worse version of much the same themes that Rance has for example?

Ant, I don't know how better to communicate this to you, but as someone who really isn't fond of SCP, they absolutely aren't idealizing the reality in which the SCP universe takes place, nor do I think Rick and Morty and Family Guy actually recommend or want the things done in their show to happen. I don't know enough about the other two to speak on them.

Rance is a different beast than most of that in that it does appear to outright promote rape as at least a desirable thing, but I dunno how much you want to argue from the point of moral philosophy.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am rather literalminded, so it is hard for me to fit this together in my head. It all seems very amoral or immoral to me.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I think arguing from intent is inherently flawed anyway, given it requires us to make assumptions divorced from both the art and the viewers that cant realistically be applied consistently everywhere without looking like hypocrites. given that while sure stuff like rick and morty could be assumed to not be endorsing its content; Ant is still absolutely correct that there are fictional stories that do contain questionable motifs that don't seem to get criticized or acknowledge as bad in the context of their own series, these things are often brushed away for the sake of "entertainment" the most obvious and blatant examples of this being murder and torture, something most people would consider amoral, the only difference here being that sexual content is seen as more taboo because people are likely less desensitized to it.

Not that i actually care if we have Hentai characters or whatever on the site but if we want to draw a clear line in the sand we have to establish something far more coherent that just intention.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. I am rather literalminded, so it is hard for me to fit this together in my head. It all seems very amoral or immoral to me.

To me, the morality is less important than the type of content.

Simply put, the basic formula for Rance games involves you playing Rance, running around fighting monsters/villains and then sleeping with and/or raping literally every single woman you encounter with h-scenes provided for each of those encounters.

It's pornography. I'm not casting aspersions on people that enjoy it, I just think it's quite clearly not something we should have on the wiki.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

To me, the morality is less important than the type of content.

Simply put, the basic formula for Rance games involves you playing Rance, running around fighting monsters/villains and then sleeping with and/or raping literally every single woman you encounter with h-scenes provided for each of those encounters.

It's pornography. I'm not casting aspersions on people that enjoy it, I just think it's quite clearly not something we should have on the wiki.

At least try to research a bit. The h-scenes are not important at all unless you want to 100% the game. This is like saying botw is about getting the 999 korok seeds, which is an idiotic take. If an official patch can remove this content without affecting the story, then surely it isnt that important to experiencing the game like you say it is. in fact: pretty much all the h content can be avoided in the base game, so its really not important

 

[Deagonx]

Frankly, the comparison of h-scenes in an hentai game series to Korok seeds in BotW is the take that I find fairly ridiculous, and we could do without your constant insulting of the staff members that disagree with you.

If an official patch can remove this content without affecting the story, then surely it isnt that important to experiencing the game like you say it is. in fact: pretty much all the h content can be avoided in the base game, so its really not important

Like I said, removability is not a reasonable angle to approach this, there's a SFW version of Kuroinu on Steam where all the h-scenes are skipped and all the character models that are too risqué are literally shadowed out. That doesn't make Kuroinu appropriate for the wiki. You can remove the h-scenes from many h-games and still play them.

With this approach, we would feasibly justify just about any h-game as being playable as a normal VN if you simply install a patch which skips over the numerous scenes where something 18+ is occurring and say "Well now we can put this on the wiki since clearly those h-scenes weren't the focal point."

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I think arguing from intent is inherently flawed anyway, given it requires us to make assumptions divorced from both the art and the viewers that cant realistically be applied consistently everywhere without looking like hypocrites. given that while sure stuff like rick and morty could be assumed to not be endorsing its content; Ant is still absolutely correct that there are fictional stories that do contain questionable motifs that don't seem to get criticized or acknowledge as bad in the context of their own series, these things are often brushed away for the sake of "entertainment" the most obvious and blatant examples of this being murder and torture, something most people would consider amoral, the only difference here being that sexual content is seen as more taboo because people are likely less desensitized to it.

Not that i actually care if we have Hentai characters or whatever on the site but if we want to draw a clear line in the sand we have to establish something far more coherent that just intention.

From where, then, would you want to argue, out of curiosity? Pornography is defined by its intent to illicit arousal, whereas the rape scene so often mentioned in Berserk is meant to illicit disgust- thus the two are different. I don't think it's as vague a line as you're painting it, and I think the average person can use insight to determine these intents.

 

[Deagonx]

I'm going to repeat myself a bit and clarify my full thoughts in a more collected manner rather than having them strewn about this thread, specifically about criteria that I don't think is functional as a defeater to the possibility of a verse being considered pornography, rather than simply containing erotic elements.

Removability

I understand the argument, but I do not think a criteria can be effective if it fails to filter out content that is explicitly and obviously pornographic. For whatever ambiguity might exist in the Rance series, there are series that are unambiguously pornographic and specifically intended for that purpose. I'll again reference Kuroinu, a nukige series with multiple hentai adaptations, where the story is little more than a pretext to setting up the various sex scenes that occur in the series. There is a SFW version on Steam with the h-scenes removed (or blacked out) and NSFW character models blacked out.

This doesn't mean it isn't pornography, because removability is not a reasonable premise for determining such a thing, because it fails to filter out series and content that are pornographic. If you pick any random hentai (anime) series and simply black out the screen when sex is happening, that doesn't mean it isn't ****. This would limit us solely to removing games which include sexual content as a intrinsic mechanical function, which the vast majority of h-games do not, as many are simply Visual Novels where you click until the scenes happen, or include barebones gameplay that stand between the player and the scenes, like games where you simply have to get through some basic candy-crush style levels that unlock the scenes.

Does this mean we should see these games as "Level 3" Candy Crush clones or VNs, because you the base steam versions are SFW but there is a patch with every game that unlocks the NSFW content? No, their intent is pornography, so they shouldn't be added. Any VN-style h-game could have the scenes removed, but that doesn't make it Fate.

Writing/Gameplay Quality

On the other hand, what about games that have clearly invested a lot of effort into their gameplay instead of simply offering some low-effort obstacle to keep you engaged between was is essentially just selling a collection of pictures? Again, setting aside the fact that the notion is very subjective and thus hard to pin down some arbitrary line at which the gameplay or story is too deep to merely consider it pornography, the fact of the matter is that many of these games -- which are explicitly and intentionally pornographic -- have complex and enjoyable gameplay or high quality writing. This does not take away from the fact that it is pornography. I consider Bible Black to have good writing, but it's still ****. The rituals don't turn women into futanari as a metaphorical deconstruction on the intersection of religion and femininity, it's just ****.

The primary question for whether or not a verse should be considered pornographic is intent and presentation, which are subjective but can be approached with a modicum of common sense. Rance isn't even really so close to the line that it needs to have a long argument about it. It is an h-game series, it's purpose is ****. It has hentai adaptations just like Kuroinu, there are numerous h-scenes in every single game. Rance, the character, goes around and has sex with every single girl in the series. If you see a cover of a Rance game, and you see Rance in the middle surrounded by anywhere from 5-12 women, there are h-scenes of Rance with every single woman on the cover, and more who aren't on the cover.

The quality of the lore, the removability of these h-scenes, or the depth of the gameplay mechanics just aren't effective defeaters to this fact, because they fail to filter out other verses which are even more obviously pornographic. We shouldn't include this verse as it's in violation of our policies.

 

[Antvasima]

I have received a reply from Sannse:

"Hi Antvasima,

I don't know the games, but I've looked around. It's not clear to me whether the sex scenes are explicit/pornographic. I get some very strong results when I search for "Rance hentai" (I recommend being careful with those search terms), but it's not clear whether they are from the games or fan art.

If they are directly from the game, and part of the game is to find and trigger these scenes, then I would put it at level 4.

I see it mentioned that it's on another wiki, that's something I will have to look at separately in the future.

I hope this helps!

Regards,

-- Sannse"

 

[Deagonx]

I get some very strong results when I search for "Rance hentai" (I recommend being careful with those search terms), but it's not clear whether they are from the games or fan art.

If they are directly from the game, and part of the game is to find and trigger these scenes, then I would put it at level 4.

Indeed, they are from the game itself. So this settles the matter as far as fandom is concerned. Should we close this thread then?

 

[First_Witch]

Offtopic but I really hope we didnt get a active and longlasting Fanwiki deleted because we did, what is tantamount to snitching to the Fandom staff

 

[Deagonx]

Offtopic but I really hope we didnt get a active and longlasting Fanwiki deleted because we did, what is tantamount to snitching to the Fandom staff

Eh, their rules are their rules. They have the right to determine what is and isn't allowed on their website. I'm sure if they do determine its in violation of their policies the admins of the wiki will be given the opportunity to save the data they have and find another home for the wiki. But it's understandable that Fandom wouldn't want a wiki which is dedicated to a game company most famous for a series in which the title character goes around assaulting every woman in his sight, but who is also the hero of the story.

 

[KingNanaya]

Indeed, they are from the game itself. So this settles the matter as far as fandom is concerned. Should we close this thread then?

as far as I know, the stuff that's animated is not in the official game

 

[Mr. Bambu]

as far as I know, the stuff that's animated is not in the official game

Neither are they fanart, no? I had thought it was just an adaptation of the first game put to video.

 

[KingNanaya]

Neither are they fanart, no? I had thought it was just an adaptation of the first game put to video.

I thought they were some scenes from the games

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I thought they were some scenes from the games

I think that would then qualify for Sannse's statement above. Nevermind that in doing this we presume they were only speaking of the video hentai results, as opposed to the actual openly stated to be H-scenes from the game.

 

[KingNanaya]

I think that would then qualify for Sannse's statement above. Nevermind that in doing this we presume they were only speaking of the video hentai results, as opposed to the actual openly stated to be H-scenes from the game.

if the existence of animated H-scenes are enough for rejection/deletion, then why do we allow Redo of Healer? it has the same content, if not worse, but it was accepted. I'm not in favor of either, but it should at least be consistent.

please nuke both

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Neither are they fanart, no? I had thought it was just an adaptation of the first game put to video.

it's a bastardized version of the first game that isnt considered canon, yes

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think I'm starting to lean toward disagreeing with Rance's addition tbh, because even if it's a poor adaptation and isn't canon, it's still a straight-up official hentai of the Rance series, which speaks volumes

At the same time, what's being discussed is the games so... I suppose I'm neutral

 

[Deagonx]

as far as I know, the stuff that's animated is not in the official game

That's true, but this discussion isn't about the animation, but the games. What the fandom rep is referring to is the art in the games.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I think I'm starting to lean toward disagreeing with Rance's addition tbh, because even if it's a poor adaptation and isn't canon, it's still a straight-up official hentai of the Rance series, which speaks volumes

But if we start on this path now, do we ban anything that has a silver of similar content? Berserk for example, straight up has a horse rape a girl, and also have many other depictions of rape. The wiki also accepted the original tsukihime ( which was added before the remakes) which literally has a scene where Shiki came in his pants from cutting arcueid into 17 pieces.

And its important to know the distiction between eroge and nukige.

Eroge : Has erotic content, but is not part of the main focus of the game, and is usually part of a greater plot. ( not ****)

Nukige: Has erotic content, which is the main focus of the game, and is not usually part of a greater plot. (is ****)

Rance is classified as an eroge, and the newer games have been stated to have a small amount of erotic content for the length of the games

 

[Deagonx]

then why do we allow Redo of Healer? it has the same content, if not worse, but it was accepted. I'm not in favor of either, but it should at least be consistent.

Looking at the discussion that was had about it, it seems that Redo was allowed because it isn't pornography. Rance very much is. However, this is not really the place to compare and contrast the two (nor is the comparison particularly relevant to the addition or removal of either). Rance appears to be in violation of our site standards and fandom appears to be opposed to it.

If you believe Redo is also against our site standards, you could make a new thread for that but from what I am reading of the first discussion, there seems to be pretty wide spread agreement among staff that the verse is not ****, and Rance is.

do we ban anything that has a silver of similar content? Berserk for example, straight up has a horse rape a girl, and also have many other depictions of rape. The wiki also accepted the original tsukihime ( which was added before the remakes) which literally has a scene where Shiki came in his pants from cutting arcueid into 17 pieces.

Like was mentioned, it is a matter of the presentation, intent, and the extent to which the series focuses on that type of content.

Eroge : Has erotic content, but is not part of the main focus of the game, and is usually part of a greater plot. ( not ****)

Nukige: Has erotic content, which is the main focus of the game, and is not usually part of a greater plot. (is ****)

Rance is classified as an eroge

Based on this criteria, I would classify Rance as a nukige. The h-scenes are a large part of the game and plot, and Rance's most prominent characteristic is what drives these h-scenes. There are many Rance games, so 1 or 2 of them being relatively light on h-scenes doesn't really matter if the series as a whole is squarely focused on erotic content (unlike, say, Fate, in which most of the games have no erotic content and the ones that do have very limited erotic content).

 

[CloverDragon03]

Based on this criteria, I would classify Rance as a nukige.

If Rance is officially classified as an eroge, though, then what you personally classify it as doesn't exactly matter

 

[Deagonx]

If Rance is officially classified as an eroge, though, then what you personally classify it as doesn't exactly matter

I'm going off of the descriptions of these terms as provided by Marshadow. Though, what is an "official" classification? And what administrative body determines that?

 

[KingNanaya]

That's true, but this discussion isn't about the animation, but the games. What the fandom rep is referring to is the art in the games.

I don't know the games, but I've looked around. It's not clear to me whether the sex scenes are explicit/pornographic. I get some very strong results when I search for "Rance hentai" (I recommend being careful with those search terms), but it's not clear whether they are from the games or fan art.

If they are directly from the game, and part of the game is to find and trigger these scenes, then I would put it at level 4.

the entire plot of Redo is revenge rape, yet it's still cateory 3 (somehow). from my very limited knowledge, the main focus of rance is some random quest for someone and along the way rance is just... rance. the main goal of the game isn't getting the scenes, but doing whatever quest you're given at the start. rance just happens to be a deplorable piece of garbage.

 

[KingNanaya]

Though, what is an "official" classification? And what administrative body determines that?

the producers, pretty sure

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Though, what is an "official" classification? And what administrative body determines that?

It's a Japanese fanon term, so basically Japanese players

 

[Mr. Bambu]

if the existence of animated H-scenes are enough for rejection/deletion, then why do we allow Redo of Healer? it has the same content, if not worse, but it was accepted. I'm not in favor of either, but it should at least be consistent.

please nuke both

I, personally, would be in favor of that, yeah. I was outvoted before though before it didn't warrant forwarding to Fandom for review.

Regardless. We did forward this to Fandom, and Fandom has given their answer. Rance isn't being added.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Can the thread be closed? Since the official highers already gave their answer and any further discussion will be counter-productive.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You typed that and posted it the literal instant I closed it

 

[Antvasima]

Offtopic but I really hope we didnt get a active and longlasting Fanwiki deleted because we did, what is tantamount to snitching to the Fandom staff

Yes, that would be very unfortunate.