• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

Hol up, how does MSSJ have a different use in Toei and the manga? I thought it was explained in both parts the same way it was said
 
hey yall, wanted to share this here before thinking of doing a CRT

found a problem with the calc that affects 99% of the speed tiering of DBZ Toei

Feat is about Goku reacting to space rocks moving towards him while he is on his spaceship, the spaceship he used to get to namek in 6 days

the high end of the calc is accepted, it uses a statement of North Kai saying that Namek its outside his area, it just being assumed it means outside the milky way, so using a distance of earth to Andromeda Galaxy (2.5 Million Lightyears) to get the feat to over 150 million c


problem is, isnt the universe in DBZ toei supposed to be infinite?

The High 3A characters (Like Post RoSaT Goku) scale to SSJ Broly (specifies in his profile) destroying entire sections of the shoutern galaxy/southern Quadrant, with these referring to sections of the living universe, which refers to countless galaxies, also king kai saying he would be a imminent threat to the north galaxy, and paragus saying that Broly could destroy the universe

what matters here, is that North Kai ´´area´´ would be ´´countless of galaxies´´ which also means that Namek being outside his area means its ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth

so if countless of galaxies means infinite distance, then thats how far namek is from earth, and so Goku reacting to rocks moving while he is on the spaceship gives him infinite speed regarless of timeframe

of course, this meaning that even fodder characters like raditz downscaling to infinite speed, which it definitively sounds problematic

id give 3 ideas, 1 is the infinite speed, the 2nd being that instead of andromeda galaxy distance, it refers to the farthest known galaxy (Abel 2218) which according to common feats references, its 13 billion lightyears, this would upscales the feat by about 5200x times

3rd idea is just ignoring all this and keep using the andromeda galaxy

(i believe the original calc uses andromeda galaxy cuz, as a 10 year old calc, it may had not been established yet by the wiki that the NSEW galaxies refers to sections of the universe with countless galaxies, and not literally mere single galaxies of the size of milky way)

TL;DR : Namek would actually be ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth, massively upscaling the calc to even infinite speed
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Also, which canon source directly compares SSJ2 to Grade 3?
Click to expand...
Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)
An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!
Click to expand...
From "Super Saiyan Evolution Theory Timetable", Dragon Ball Z: The History of Trunks Anime Film Comic

I have only been thinking about the one. At least, the one direct comparison.

For example,
  • Super Saiyan 2 is described as a "power beyond that of a Super Saiyan" compared to had Goku achieved, and Goku was capable of becoming a Third Grade Super Saiyan.
After witnessing Android 16's destruction at the hands of Cell during the Cell Games, Gohan's rage finally consumed him, and he was able to do what even Goku couldn't: achieve a power beyond that of a Super Saiyan.
Click to expand...
From "Z-Encyclopedia: Characters", Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot
  • Second Grade and Third Grade are, at times, grouped together as mere extensions of Super Saiyan 1 in places where Super Saiyan 2 is considered as completely surpassing Super Saiyan 1.
The Second and Third Grades are simply powered-up versions of the First Grade, and Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks are able to transform into them.
Click to expand...
From "The Super Saiyan Pedigree", Supplemental Daizenshuu: TV Animation Part 3
Super Saiyan
A legendary Saiyan warrior who, while possessing a calm heart, has been awakened by rage. Their distinguishing features are golden hair that stands on end, green pupils, and a large power-up.

There are various types of Super Saiyans, which are largely divided up into 4 patterns: Super Saiyan 1, 2, 3, and 4. [Note how Grade 2, 3, or 4 are not included in the list separate from Super Saiyan 1.]
Click to expand...
Super Saiyan 1
The transformation which Son Goku displayed in his battle with Freeza on Planet Namek was “Super Saiyan 1”!! Proposed conditions for the transformation include such points as “intense anger or sorrow”, “high battle power”, “a gentle heart”, and “a dangerous situation”. The main external features are an aura and golden hair on one’s head which stands straight up, and after the transformation one’s battle power increases remarkably!! One theory is that it becomes as much as 50 times what it is normally!! There’s also types like Grade Two, which raises power and speed through ki, and Grade Three, which relies too much on power!!
Click to expand...
From "Super Saiyan Evolution Chapter", Dragon Ball GT Perfect File Volume 1

Also, also,
Kaioken Derivative Technique: Super Kaioken
Used during the match against Paikuhan during the Afterlife Martial Arts Tournament. After powering up to Super Saiyan Second Grade, he amplifies the ki in his body for an instant to draw out his abilities. In the Super Saiyan state, he catches up to Paikuhan, who couldn't read his movements, and had enough power to blow him away in a single blow. Before acquiring Super Saiyan 2, it is a combined technique that was used only once.
Click to expand...
The language of the description implies Goku's Super Kaio-ken, which is a combination of Second Grade Super Saiyan and at least the basic Kaio-ken, was a half-measure of sorts before he could achieve the power of a Super Saiyan 2.
 
cough cough
vsbattles.com

Namek GBE revision/Calc replacement

Okey so this thread is to replace this calculation Namek size and GBE for this new I made it was said that Namek's stars are Suns and have our Sun size, but the term "Sun" is used commonly in fiction as just a "star", which we can see on official site several times, like "smaller suns" "bigger...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Breadbear83 said:
hey yall, wanted to share this here before thinking of doing a CRT

found a problem with the calc that affects 99% of the speed tiering of DBZ Toei

Feat is about Goku reacting to space rocks moving towards him while he is on his spaceship, the spaceship he used to get to namek in 6 days

the high end of the calc is accepted, it uses a statement of North Kai saying that Namek its outside his area, it just being assumed it means outside the milky way, so using a distance of earth to Andromeda Galaxy (2.5 Million Lightyears) to get the feat to over 150 million c


problem is, isnt the universe in DBZ toei supposed to be infinite?

The High 3A characters (Like Post RoSaT Goku) scale to SSJ Broly (specifies in his profile) destroying entire sections of the shoutern galaxy/southern Quadrant, with these referring to sections of the living universe, which refers to countless galaxies, also king kai saying he would be a imminent threat to the north galaxy, and paragus saying that Broly could destroy the universe

what matters here, is that North Kai ´´area´´ would be ´´countless of galaxies´´ which also means that Namek being outside his area means its ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth

so if countless of galaxies means infinite distance, then thats how far namek is from earth, and so Goku reacting to rocks moving while he is on the spaceship gives him infinite speed regarless of timeframe

of course, this meaning that even fodder characters like raditz downscaling to infinite speed, which it definitively sounds problematic

id give 3 ideas, 1 is the infinite speed, the 2nd being that instead of andromeda galaxy distance, it refers to the farthest known galaxy (Abel 2218) which according to common feats references, its 13 billion lightyears, this would upscales the feat by about 5200x times

3rd idea is just ignoring all this and keep using the andromeda galaxy

(i believe the original calc uses andromeda galaxy cuz, as a 10 year old calc, it may had not been established yet by the wiki that the NSEW galaxies refers to sections of the universe with countless galaxies, and not literally mere single galaxies of the size of milky way)

TL;DR : Namek would actually be ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth, massively upscaling the calc to even infinite speed
Click to expand...
gonna cough too, cough cough
 
Nullflowerblush said:
From "Super Saiyan Evolution Theory Timetable", Dragon Ball Z: The History of Trunks Anime Film Comic

I have only been thinking about the one. At least, the one direct comparison.

For example,
  • Super Saiyan 2 is described as a "power beyond that of a Super Saiyan" compared to had Goku achieved, and Goku was capable of becoming a Third Grade Super Saiyan.

From "Z-Encyclopedia: Characters", Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot
  • Second Grade and Third Grade are, at times, grouped together as mere extensions of Super Saiyan 1 in places where Super Saiyan 2 is considered as completely surpassing Super Saiyan 1.

From "The Super Saiyan Pedigree", Supplemental Daizenshuu: TV Animation Part 3


From "Super Saiyan Evolution Chapter", Dragon Ball GT Perfect File Volume 1

Also, also,

The language of the description implies Goku's Super Kaio-ken, which is a combination of Second Grade Super Saiyan and at least the basic Kaio-ken, was a half-measure of sorts before he could achieve the power of a Super Saiyan 2.
Click to expand...
... I asked for canon sources, we already accepted Grade 4 > Grade 3 in the anime.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Nothing points to them being equal either.
Click to expand...
And nothing points to Base Goku far surpassing Base Vegeta either. The entire point of Goku surpassing Vegeta is all around their different ways of handling their Super Saiyan forms and evolving them.
GodlyCharmander said:
That's a huge leap in logic. Grade 1 has strains as well, and all Grade 4 does is remove it.
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing how this is a 'leap in logic'. We see characters regularly talk about charging their Ki. Such as Goku against Kid Buu or Gohan against Cell Max. The entire reason Goku can't kill Kid Buu himself is because Super Saiyan 3 is too strenuous on his body, causing him to lose Ki the more he powers up and weakening him. Grade 4 is stated by Vegeta to almost entirely eliminate strain when powering up. That is the entire reason Grade 4 is superior to Grade 2, which Vegeta used as a balanced overall power boost over Grade 1.

This is just basic logic. Have you ever played a video game where you have to manage some sort of energy source for abilities? Such as abilities that scale in potency with the level of energy you consume? It's essentially the same thing. Grade 4 is more efficient so it can fight at higher levels than Grade 2 (and likely 3) can. Because Grade 4 users can charge their Ki with minimal strain, allowing them to use higher levels of power with lower levels of power expenditure.

That is why Grade 2 is inferior. And a big part of why Grade 3 is inferior (barring the agility drop). Because their effective power output in a battle is lower than Grade 4. They strain the body too much to power up with, so their Ki drops faster. Not as poorly as Super Saiyan 3 but poor enough for Grade 4 to make all the difference.
 
StarShooter80 said:
Also would you guys say that Vegeta and Trunks obtained Grade 4 by the time of the Cell Games?
Click to expand...
Most likely, yeah. Vegeta figured out what Goku did. Then he went straight back into the Time Chamber. It'd be a little weird if he and Trunks didn't replicate them. The only issue is that they already strained their bodies from a full year of training so their bodies might not have acclimated as quickly or well.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
And nothing points to Base Goku far surpassing Base Vegeta either.
Click to expand...
So we're in neutral ground, and you don't have a single leg to stand on and question this.


CryoTheMayo said:
The entire reason Goku can't kill Kid Buu himself is because Super Saiyan 3 is too strenuous on his body, causing him to lose Ki the more he powers up and weakening him. Grade 4 is stated by Vegeta to almost entirely eliminate strain when powering up.
Click to expand...
When powering up to the Super Saiyan state at full power. The SSJ3 example perfectly agrees with this interpretation.

You taking a single line and interpreting it however you want is humourous.


CryoTheMayo said:
Have you ever played a video game where you have to manage some sort of energy source for abilities?
Click to expand...
Yes, if I have a perfect version of an ability that consumes energy, and it stops consuming energy, I'd describe it as removing strain.

CryoTheMayo said:
That is why Grade 2 is inferior. And a big part of why Grade 3 is inferior (barring the agility drop). Because their effective power output in a battle is lower than Grade 4.
Click to expand...
Headcanon.

Grade 2 and Grade 3 just consume mote energy and have other strains that make their power drop faster. Grade 4 is literally described as regular Super Saiyan in the manga. That line you don't want to use, huh? Convenient.
 
Breadbear83 said:
hey yall, wanted to share this here before thinking of doing a CRT

found a problem with the calc that affects 99% of the speed tiering of DBZ Toei

Feat is about Goku reacting to space rocks moving towards him while he is on his spaceship, the spaceship he used to get to namek in 6 days

the high end of the calc is accepted, it uses a statement of North Kai saying that Namek its outside his area, it just being assumed it means outside the milky way, so using a distance of earth to Andromeda Galaxy (2.5 Million Lightyears) to get the feat to over 150 million c


problem is, isnt the universe in DBZ toei supposed to be infinite?

The High 3A characters (Like Post RoSaT Goku) scale to SSJ Broly (specifies in his profile) destroying entire sections of the shoutern galaxy/southern Quadrant, with these referring to sections of the living universe, which refers to countless galaxies, also king kai saying he would be a imminent threat to the north galaxy, and paragus saying that Broly could destroy the universe

what matters here, is that North Kai ´´area´´ would be ´´countless of galaxies´´ which also means that Namek being outside his area means its ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth

so if countless of galaxies means infinite distance, then thats how far namek is from earth, and so Goku reacting to rocks moving while he is on the spaceship gives him infinite speed regarless of timeframe

of course, this meaning that even fodder characters like raditz downscaling to infinite speed, which it definitively sounds problematic

id give 3 ideas, 1 is the infinite speed, the 2nd being that instead of andromeda galaxy distance, it refers to the farthest known galaxy (Abel 2218) which according to common feats references, its 13 billion lightyears, this would upscales the feat by about 5200x times

3rd idea is just ignoring all this and keep using the andromeda galaxy

(i believe the original calc uses andromeda galaxy cuz, as a 10 year old calc, it may had not been established yet by the wiki that the NSEW galaxies refers to sections of the universe with countless galaxies, and not literally mere single galaxies of the size of milky way)

TL;DR : Namek would actually be ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth, massively upscaling the calc to even infinite speed
Click to expand...
Hey it's the universe in dbz Toei (the living world) supposed to be infinite in size? And so each SENW also being infinite in size?
 
Breadbear83 said:
Hey it's the universe in dbz Toei (the living world) supposed to be infinite in size? And so each SENW also being infinite in size?
Click to expand...
It's narratively inconsistent, why would a ship take 6 days to reach an infinitely distant place? Why would Goku have trouble teleporting to New Namek if he could teleport infinite distances?
 
GodlyCharmander said:
It's narratively inconsistent, why would a ship take 6 days to reach an infinitely distant place? Why would Goku have trouble teleporting to New Namek if he could teleport infinite distances?
Click to expand...
You are right in that, low tiers scaling being infinite it's already inconsistent

But in all case does using the distance of further galaxies like a Abell 2218 being 13 billion light-years form earth makes more sense? Cuz north galaxy it's still stated to be a quadrant of the universe of even countless of galaxies, not a mere singe galaxy like the original calc implied, so Andromeda Galaxy seems short
 
Breadbear83 said:
You are right in that, low tiers scaling being infinite it's already inconsistent

But in all case does using the distance of further galaxies like a Abell 2218 being 13 billion light-years form earth makes more sense? Cuz north galaxy it's still stated to be a quadrant of the universe of even countless of galaxies, not a mere singe galaxy like the original calc implied, so Andromeda Galaxy seems short
Click to expand...
Yeah but Earth is said to be at the edge of the galaxy, which... is also inconsistent, if they are infinite in size.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Yeah but Earth is said to be at the edge of the galaxy, which... is also inconsistent, if they are infinite in size.
Click to expand...
Not sure if the galaxy quadrants are supposed to literally be like a pizza divided into 4 slices (to say how the edges look like) but also "at the edge" in a observable universal scale could even mean millions, close to a billion light-years, and not necessarily namek has to also be on the edge of the next galaxy quadrants

The Andromeda Galaxy end may still be short even if the dbz Toei universe is "low balled" in the calc as "observable universe length" which is a method to remediate with the calc that I propose

Guess I'll make tomorrow the CRT and see what people think, gotta check if there space for another dragon ball CRT, some verses have limit for how many active CRTs right?
 
vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal

Staff thread permission from @Agnaa so no replies without permissions. A while back, I found out that this blog is linked on the Dragon Ball page, and it’s meant to explain the exact speed numbers for the franchise’s characters, specifically from Dragon Ball Z. The problem is that everything...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
vsbattles.com

Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal

Staff thread permission from @Agnaa so no replies without permissions. A while back, I found out that this blog is linked on the Dragon Ball page, and it’s meant to explain the exact speed numbers for the franchise’s characters, specifically from Dragon Ball Z. The problem is that everything...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
Oh, any staff willing to let me comment on this? I will cook, I promise.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Beginning of Super Vegeta vs SSJ3 Vegito be like according to VSBW


Seriously tho

This probably would get some good results considering the Demon Realm is like accepted as 4-A in size (And this guy is weaker than Vegito so it applies to DBZ too)
Click to expand...

I'm surprised no one is bringing this up in the Staff Thread right now.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Alternate Universe: Haxgon Ball Z
Replies
0
Views
295
ALEPHGOAT
Killerdrone123
  • Locked
Quick GT Goku addition
Replies
24
Views
3K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
FoxySonicMaster108
Dragon Ball Z: Anime and Movies being one thing?
Replies
2
Views
881
JustANormalPerson01
JustANormalPerson01
The_Impress
Our Own Dragon Ball Saga (Round 1): Goku vs. Stegron (Marvel) (7-0-0; Grace and Ended)
Replies
25
Views
3K
The_Impress
The_Impress
M3X_2.0
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal
2 3 4
Replies
144
Views
21K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Back
Top