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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread


Future Piccolo, after fusing with Nail (1,000,000+) <<< Future 18, when she killed Piccolo < Young Future Trunks ~< 18, when she fought Young Trunks <<< SS Young Trunks (50,000,000+) < Future Gohan < SS Future Gohan (2,500,000,000+) < Future 17, using less than 50% of his strength < Future 17, using 100% of his strength (5,000,000,000+) ~< Post-Yardrat SS Future Goku.

Therefore, Post-Yardrat Goku's Battle Power has a lower limit of 50,000,000+ and an upper limit of 100,000,000+; and after Goku, Piccolo, and Gohan train for three years, they should individually have Battle Powers of 150,000,000+.
 
I have posted the topic I discussed here regarding Infinite Zamasu eventually possessing NEP 1 and BDE 1, along with interaction with them.

vsbattles.com

Adding NEP 1 and BDE 1, along with some interaction additions with them.

I previously discussed this topic with some Dragon Ball fans, and several experienced members agreed with it, so I would like to bring it up here. I may also be absent from the thread for a long time, so if it gets accepted, anyone can apply the changes. The purpose of this thread is to add NEP...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
BlackeJan said:
I forgot but how strong is MSSJ? like is it as strong as ASSJ or Grade 3?
Click to expand...
Toei continuity states Grade 4 is > other grades through secondary material, but for manga Grade 4 is just Grade 1 with no stamina drain to my understanding. There are probably some guidebook statements lying around that could make it a discussion.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
It's just as strong as Grade 1 with no stamina drain, it's the same principle as Perfected SSJB. ASSJ and Grade 3 are stronger.
Click to expand...
Before grade 1 Karin said that Goku can't compete with Perfect Cell(by reading his ki), who was at that time weaker than Grade 3 Trunks in terms of sheer ki. In Grade 4 Goku's ki was bigger than Trunks's ki in Grade 3 even after traning in ROSAT
 
Mgebrat282 said:
Before grade 1 Karin said that Goku can't compete with Perfect Cell(by reading his ki), who was at that time weaker than Grade 3 Trunks in terms of sheer ki. In Grade 4 Goku's ki was bigger than Trunks's ki in Grade 3 even after traning in ROSAT
Click to expand...
Goku was already in Grade 4 while Karin evaluated him. Once you have Grade 4, you cannot just "revert" back to Grade 1.
 
BlackeJan said:
I forgot but how strong is MSSJ? like is it as strong as ASSJ or Grade 3?
Click to expand...
Likely stronger than both. Goku spent a good chunk of his time in the HTC observing Gohan and the difference between them and Vegeta/Trunks had nothing to do with baseline power, it was simply Grade 4 being superior. When Vegeta explains Grade 4 to Trunks, and I am going off raws here not the Viz translation, he explains that Grade 4 is superior because it removes most of the strain of powering up. Meaning a Grade 4 Super Saiyan can power up to higher levels than the other grades with minimal power loss.

Now why 'likely'? Well, as I said nothing points to Goku's baseline power being suddenly greater than Vegeta's. Goku's emphasis in his training was developing Super Saiyan. That is the difference between them. Vegeta clearly states that Goku had surpassed him when Goku was only only halfway to full power. This, at least, would make Grade 4 >2x stronger than Grade 2. Grade 3 has a statement in one guidebook of being 10x Grade 2 or Grade 1 IIRC but I personally doubt that given it'd mean it surpasses Super Saiyan 3 in brute power boost...which is inconsistent with SS3's portrayal in the Buu Saga. So it depends on how stong you think Grade 3 is and how you want to interpret Vegeta's comment.

Just to clarify further so no one misunderstands. Grade 2 and 3 may have a higher peak of power but powering up in those states is far more strenuous and therefore decreases the user's power. Making their effective power significantly lower. Comparatively Grade 4 likely has a lower peak of power but it remains steady at a higher level than Grade 2, and probably, Grade 3. Making it far more practical.
 
Mgebrat282 said:
Before grade 1 Karin said that Goku can't compete with Perfect Cell(by reading his ki)
Click to expand...
If Korin can sense Goku's full power from inside of him, he can sense Cell's full power as well, just as Krillin had.
XXBenShapiroXx said:
Toei continuity states Grade 4 is > other grades through secondary material
Click to expand...
In the television anime, Goku says all the same things about Grade 4 that he does in the original series—about how the normal form is the most optimized and the goal is to maximize efficiency over power—and I'm sure you could find a number of different anime-based guides that say the same. I'll have to go through them after work.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Likely stronger than both. Goku spent a good chunk of his time in the HTC observing Gohan and the difference between them and Vegeta/Trunks had nothing to do with baseline power, it was simply Grade 4 being superior. When Vegeta explains Grade 4 to Trunks, and I am going off raws here not the Viz translation, he explains that Grade 4 is superior because it removes most of the strain of powering up. Meaning a Grade 4 Super Saiyan can power up to higher levels than the other grades with minimal power loss.

Now why 'likely'? Well, as I said nothing points to Goku's baseline power being suddenly greater than Vegeta's. Goku's emphasis in his training was developing Super Saiyan. That is the difference between them. Vegeta clearly states that Goku had surpassed him when Goku was only only halfway to full power. This, at least, would make Grade 4 >2x stronger than Grade 2. Grade 3 has a statement in one guidebook of being 10x Grade 2 or Grade 1 IIRC but I personally doubt that given it'd mean it surpasses Super Saiyan 3 in brute power boost...which is inconsistent with SS3's portrayal in the Buu Saga. So it depends on how stong you think Grade 3 is and how you want to interpret Vegeta's comment.

Just to clarify further so no one misunderstands. Grade 2 and 3 may have a higher peak of power but powering up in those states is far more strenuous and therefore decreases the user's power. Making their effective power significantly lower. Comparatively Grade 4 likely has a lower peak of power but it remains steady at a higher level than Grade 2, and probably, Grade 3. Making it far more practical.
Click to expand...
Lol, people genuinely think Trunks landing a hit on Cell in Grade 3 would do above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan level Damage. Cell was either lying about Trunks' power being greater than his, or Cell got stronger during the 10 days.
 
Azertyhuuh said:
I have posted the topic I discussed here regarding Infinite Zamasu eventually possessing NEP 1 and BDE 1, along with interaction with them.

vsbattles.com

Adding NEP 1 and BDE 1, along with some interaction additions with them.

I previously discussed this topic with some Dragon Ball fans, and several experienced members agreed with it, so I would like to bring it up here. I may also be absent from the thread for a long time, so if it gets accepted, anyone can apply the changes. The purpose of this thread is to add NEP...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...

I think this could be NeP type 3, because it becomes 0(nothingness/world of void) and 1(space time)
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Well, as I said nothing points to Goku's baseline power being suddenly greater than Vegeta's.
Click to expand...
Nothing points to them being equal either.
CryoTheMayo said:
When Vegeta explains Grade 4 to Trunks, and I am going off raws here not the Viz translation, he explains that Grade 4 is superior because it removes most of the strain of powering up. Meaning a Grade 4 Super Saiyan can power up to higher levels than the other grades with minimal power loss.
Click to expand...
That's a huge leap in logic. Grade 1 has strains as well, and all Grade 4 does is remove it.
 
Honestly, I do hope soome guide comes out and fleshes the mssj form like what toei did, cuz I don't see why they don't simply try and master the grade 2 rather than 1
Nullflowerblush said:
Also, why do you guys think Super Saiyan 2 is only a 100x multiplier?
Click to expand...
Cuz that's the information we have, and chain scaling doesn't debunk it either as even small PL changes can result in massive AP gaps
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Every canon and semi-canon source says Super Saiyan 2 is twice as powerful as Super Saiyan, often citing or showing Grade 1.
Click to expand...
I don't think I've ever seen an official source explicitly state anything along the lines of "Super Saiyan 2 is twice as powerful as Grade 1 Super Saiyan", as opposed to the numerous times Super Saiyan 2 is explicitly described as surpassing Super Saiyan in general in all aspects, even directly comparing its power to that of Grade 3 Super Saiyan.

"Twice as powerful as Super Saiyan" could mean "Twice as powerful as Grade 3, the pinnacle of Super Saiyan's power" just as easily as it could mean "Twice as powerful as Grade 1, the lowest possible value".
 
Nullflowerblush said:
I don't think I've ever seen an official source explicitly state anything along the lines of "Super Saiyan 2 is twice as powerful as Grade 1 Super Saiyan", as opposed to the numerous times Super Saiyan 2 is explicitly described as surpassing Super Saiyan in general in all aspects, even directly comparing its power to that of Grade 3 Super Saiyan.
Click to expand...
That's because while Ascended Super Saiyan, and Grade 3 Super Saiyan have specific names in both ENG and JP, Grade 1, and Grade 4, are both just referred as "Super Saiyan". Also, which canon source directly compares SSJ2 to Grade 3?

Nullflowerblush said:
"Twice as powerful as Super Saiyan" could mean "Twice as powerful as Grade 3, the pinnacle of Super Saiyan's power" just as easily as it could mean "Twice as powerful as Grade 1, the lowest possible value".
Click to expand...
The first citation of Super Saiyan 2 being twice as powerful as Super Saiyan literally uses an image of Grade 1. For all intents and purposes, the evidence supports this side massively.
 
Mbpoops said:
Zamasu’s AE1 prolly gotta go new standards n such
Click to expand...
I don't think that's necessarily required. He was a being of pure will/thoughts before he merged with the universe, so even for that brief moment before fusing with the cosmos he was still an abstract being. I think it would be more reasonable to note on his profile that AE1 would only apply to his will state before he merges with the universe which then no longer applies once he's done so
 
GodlyCharmander said:
That's because while Ascended Super Saiyan, and Grade 3 Super Saiyan have specific names in both ENG and JP, Grade 1, and Grade 4, are both just referred as "Super Saiyan". Also, which canon source directly compares SSJ2 to Grade 3?


The first citation of Super Saiyan 2 being twice as powerful as Super Saiyan literally uses an image of Grade 1. For all intents and purposes, the evidence supports this side massively.
Click to expand...
In fact, in SEG:

"Further changes in Super Saiyan
By surpassing the "inner wall", Super Saiyans can transform even further! Goku has reached his third form.

Super Saiyan 2
Twice as strong as a Super Saiyan!
Although his appearance is the same as 1, his curly spirit shoots out sparks like lightning, and his hair stands up even more finely.

Super Saiyan 3
Four times stronger than Super Saiyan 2!
His hair grows and his eyebrows disappear. It is calmer than 2, but it consumes a lot of energy and the transformation time is limited."


Both the visual, and the text, draws direct comparison with Grade 1, or Grade 4. It is what they mean when they refer as "Super Saiyan 1".
 
GodlyCharmander said:
Also, which canon source directly compares SSJ2 to Grade 3?
Click to expand...
While it's never directly compared to Grade 3, it does have many statements or implications that would realistically make it superior to the previous Grades of Super Saiyan:


Also something else I recalled:
WZBMYGh.png

"Blinded by rage, Gohan finally shows his true power. But instead of his muscles swelling like Vegeta's, he barely changes in appearance, even though his strength is overwhelming and his fighting style approaches perfection."
Click to expand...
The form is directly compared to Vegeta's Grade 2, saying the key difference between them is just the muscles swelling up, which implies both have a similar boost in power from their previous states, which may imply Grade 2 is also a 2x multiplier. Meaning Grade 3 would be a 1000x boost, SSJ2 a 2000x boost, and SSJ3 a 8000x boost.
 
Also would you guys say that Vegeta and Trunks obtained Grade 4 by the time of the Cell Games?

A key difference between Grades 1 and 4 in the manga is how the speech bubbles are done, with Grade 1 having a spiky/angular speech bubble to show how the strain of the form has an effect on the voice, making it akin to other threatening or grey characters like Frieza, Cell, Piccolo and Vegeta. Meanwhile Grade 4 has the round speech bubble just like how the good/casual characters talk normally, to show how it doesn't have that strain on the body so the voice goes unaffected.

We see these angular speech bubbles with Trunks in the times he goes Super Saiyan 1 like against Frieza, compared to his base level round speech bubbles. However during the Cell Games he's shown having the round speech bubbles while in Super Saiyan, something only special towards Grade 4s, it's the same case in his epilogue against the remaining Androids in his future. While Vegeta's speech bubbles are still angular, at this time he's still a grey character and his regular speech bubbles are also still angular.

Another thing is, why isn't Vegeta and Trunks using Grade 2? It's never suggested it has more of a strain that Grade 1, just that it's a more powerful transformation. There's no reason to use regular Super Saiyan here, unless if it was the more refined form.
 
StarShooter80 said:
While it's never directly compared to Grade 3, it does have many statements or implications that would realistically make it superior to the previous Grades of Super Saiyan:
Click to expand...

Only the first scan is really convincing. The rest would work just as well if it referred to G1 or MSSJ. Also, the 10x Grade 3 thing is not valid, it comes from a spanish and french guide with no way to access the original shueisha script.


StarShooter80 said:
Also something else I recalled:
WZBMYGh.png


The form is directly compared to Vegeta's Grade 2.
Click to expand...
The implication here is that both forms are a powered-up version of Super Saiyan. Which, yeah?
 
Hol up, how does MSSJ have a different use in Toei and the manga? I thought it was explained in both parts the same way it was said
 
hey yall, wanted to share this here before thinking of doing a CRT

found a problem with the calc that affects 99% of the speed tiering of DBZ Toei

Feat is about Goku reacting to space rocks moving towards him while he is on his spaceship, the spaceship he used to get to namek in 6 days

the high end of the calc is accepted, it uses a statement of North Kai saying that Namek its outside his area, it just being assumed it means outside the milky way, so using a distance of earth to Andromeda Galaxy (2.5 Million Lightyears) to get the feat to over 150 million c


problem is, isnt the universe in DBZ toei supposed to be infinite?

The High 3A characters (Like Post RoSaT Goku) scale to SSJ Broly (specifies in his profile) destroying entire sections of the shoutern galaxy/southern Quadrant, with these referring to sections of the living universe, which refers to countless galaxies, also king kai saying he would be a imminent threat to the north galaxy, and paragus saying that Broly could destroy the universe

what matters here, is that North Kai ´´area´´ would be ´´countless of galaxies´´ which also means that Namek being outside his area means its ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth

so if countless of galaxies means infinite distance, then thats how far namek is from earth, and so Goku reacting to rocks moving while he is on the spaceship gives him infinite speed regarless of timeframe

of course, this meaning that even fodder characters like raditz downscaling to infinite speed, which it definitively sounds problematic

id give 3 ideas, 1 is the infinite speed, the 2nd being that instead of andromeda galaxy distance, it refers to the farthest known galaxy (Abel 2218) which according to common feats references, its 13 billion lightyears, this would upscales the feat by about 5200x times

3rd idea is just ignoring all this and keep using the andromeda galaxy

(i believe the original calc uses andromeda galaxy cuz, as a 10 year old calc, it may had not been established yet by the wiki that the NSEW galaxies refers to sections of the universe with countless galaxies, and not literally mere single galaxies of the size of milky way)

TL;DR : Namek would actually be ´´countless of galaxies´´ away from earth, massively upscaling the calc to even infinite speed
 
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