All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'm asking why. What's the issue with that?

It does hurt the suspension of disbelief when say Krillin somehow goes from nowhere near even Gero to stomping SSJ3 Vegito just cause he trained for like a week

 

[TiltedFN]

It does hurt the suspension of disbelief when say Krillin somehow goes from nowhere near even Gero to stomping SSJ3 Vegito just cause he trained for like a week

What about the other universes? Why can nobody be worthy of making Goku and Vegeta transform besides the "God tiers"? Who are the God tiers in this case? Beerus? Angels?

And about the Z-fighters, sure powercliffing exist, but that's a "problem" for shonen in general. Like, you aren't gonna see Krillin make Goku go God form or something, or tien. And especially not Yamcha. Even base humans back in Z are stronger than like Mecha Frieza by the time of the time skip in the Android Saga? Would you hold them under the same scrutiny? What about Krillin nearly being able to kill Nappa, Frieza, and maybe even Vegeta with a Kienzen? Krillin being stronger than Raditz? The other Z-fighters? Why is this such a problem with characters getting stronger when an overarching theme of Dragon Ball is self-improvement? What is "realistically" supposed to mean here?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Yes it can Ruffy, but like I mentioned DBH has anti-feats too, but won't be downgraded because it's got a lot of feats backing up there rating.

I don't like DBH

 

[Huesito88]

I don't like DBH

It's a example

 

[StekFence]

Just like other characters, he claims to have infinite speed, taking blitz Mach 18 and the speed of light, but guess who can’t get infinite speed

Sorry, but can you explain this. I don’t recall Mach speed being mentioned in db for a while

 

[CryoTheMayo]

A narrative time limit is the reason Sonic and Megaman are getting downgrade off the infinite speed, so yeah Fusion is kinda of a Anti-feat.

Fusion isn't really one. Because we are seen and told that it becomes more unstable the more energy you use in it. So Fusion is not just time limited, it is also energy limited. In the DBS Anime I can't recall any instances of any fusion defusing from time alone. Gogeta doesn't defuse. Vegito defuses from energy instability. Kefla is just overpowered and her potaras get shattered. Gotenks defuses offscreen.

The DBS Manga, on the other hand, does have Fusion timer coming into play. Part of the strategy against God Zamasu is waiting out the timer and we see Gotenks defused toward the end of the Cell Max fight. Which does indicate passage of time.

However all of this is ultimately moot. Because virtually every single Immeasurable/Infinite Speed character has the exact same kind of 'antifeats'. You'd be hard-pressed to find one without them.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Fusion isn't really one.

Is for Gogeta SSJ4 atleast. The "energy limit" you said decreased his fusion time from 30 minutes to 10 minutes. And is implied that he spend 10 minutes fused while fighting.

Even If you want to use that, Buutenks also defuses when Gotenks time limit wore off. And Goku don't say anything about energy, is specifically their time limit.

The energy limit is a good argument tho, It could be used to disqualify the fusion time was Anti-feats

However all of this is ultimately moot.

Not really? Anti-feats by the narrative are very big counters for scaling, that's why everyone on MCU is subsonic speed. It depends on the verse and the feats in question.

Dragon Ball Super for Infinite speed should be fine.

You'd be hard-pressed to find one without them.

This guy was my first trought when you said this.

 

[Robo432343]

If we get infinite speed super would there really be anything left holding back arguments for immeasurable super characters?

Goatku's profile has a note for this

Due to the vast amount of inconsistencies between various feats, statements, and information given about Time-Skip, such as the mechanics explained by Vados and Whis, (that it is merely limited Time Travel that stores time) being directly contradicted on multiple occasions, including feats like freezing Goku in time (twice), Hit's own words, and Word of God, or what even qualifies as Time-Skip, as Tides of Time (Hit's Dimension-Shift) was initially stated not to be, but this was contradicted later in the Tournament of Power, or regarding how Time-Skip has a reliant Dimension connected to it for Time Storage contradicts Hit's testimony regarding how he never made Time-Skip do more than its initial basic function before, (and the basic mechanics, as he needs to skip time first to then store it, contradicting even that description), etc. has created a patchwork of incoherence. Due to this, and how the Time Freezing and Travelling related parts of the ability must both be simultaneously true for the plot of the Dragon Ball Super Anime to make sense (as Vados/Whis explanation is the sole reason he has his greater Time Dimension abilities thoughout the Assassination Arc and the Tournament of Power, and he needs the abilities to also specifically be Time Stop for certain major plot sequences, like Time Cage, {a Time Stop ability which is explicitly described as "Time-Skip in Reverse"} to affect Jiren), as well as the fact they are used interchangeably at several points, our community has decided to index the ability as both Time Travel and Time Stop, and to simply reconcile the best we can by ignoring these glaring contradictions to get the most accurate listing of Hit's ability. As such, Goku's ability to get around these abilities will be indexed as they would be if this inconsistency did not exist. This includes immeasurable speed, (as it is through raw speed that Goku uses to meet Hit in his limited travel through time), which we accept as an Outlier. This is due to multiple reasons, such as how it contradicts elements in the series like travel time between points (as combat speed and travel speed are often directly connected in Dragon Ball) or Goku's reliance on Instant Transmission, (as if he was immeasurable, he could simply run to locations), or how it contradicts the most blatant setpiece of all, the Tournament of Power (which occurs across 48 minutes. If everyone was fighting at immeasurable speeds, or even individual characters, this could not be possible).

 

[Hasty12345]

Sorry, but can you explain this. I don’t recall Mach speed being mentioned in db for a while

Luffy is not talking about DB

 

[Huesito88]

Luffy is not talking about DB

Yeah I thought it would've been obvious what he was talking about

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Is for Gogeta SSJ4 atleast. The "energy limit" you said decreased his fusion time from 30 minutes to 10 minutes. And is implied that he spend 10 minutes fused while fighting.

Gogeta had an explicit reason for why he screwed around. And I specified the DBS Anime. I don't care about GT.

Even If you want to use that, Buutenks also defuses when Gotenks time limit wore off. And Goku don't say anything about energy, is specifically their time limit.

And no one is arguing that Buutenks is Immeasurable Speed. At most you can maybe argue he's Infinite Speed if you buy infinite uni.

Not really? Anti-feats by the narrative are very big counters for scaling, that's why everyone on MCU is subsonic speed. It depends on the verse and the feats in question.

You said not really then agreed with me that it's moot. No duh it's going to vary case-by-case verse-to-verse.

This guy was my first trought when you said this.

Simon isn't generally Immeasurable Speed. He has Immeasurable attack speed in one key. He also doesn't have outright Infinite Speed, just likely. The fact such qualifiers exist is, most likely, because there is context to disqualify him from just having a general outright Immeasurable Speed or Infinite Speed.

To put it another way, none of Simon's keys can actually act at Immeasurable Speeds. He just has attacks that have immeasurable speed. That would imply he can be blitzed by non-immeasurable characters before he can even act. So he at most has Infinite Speed. Except that's just a likely key anyway, which suggests there is an issue with him having outright Infinite Speed.

 

[TiltedFN]

Gogeta had an explicit reason for why he screwed around. And I specified the DBS Anime. I don't care about GT.

And no one is arguing that Buutenks is Immeasurable Speed. At most you can maybe argue he's Infinite Speed if you buy infinite uni.

You said not really then agreed with me that it's moot. No duh it's going to vary case-by-case verse-to-verse.

Simon isn't generally Immeasurable Speed. He has Immeasurable attack speed in one key. He also doesn't have outright Infinite Speed, just likely. The fact such qualifiers exist is, most likely, because there is context to disqualify him from just having a general outright Immeasurable Speed or Infinite Speed.

To put it another way, none of Simon's keys can actually act at Immeasurable Speeds. He just has attacks that have immeasurable speed. That would imply he can be blitzed by non-immeasurable characters before he can even act. So he at most has Infinite Speed. Except that's just a likely key anyway, which suggests there is an issue with him having outright Infinite Speed.

Can't you argue planet level Buutenks?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Can't you argue planet level Buutenks?

Impossible. Buutenks never destroyed a planet. At most he threw a blast to the other side of Earth. Best I can give him is Tier 6.

 

[Vietthai96]

Is for Gogeta SSJ4 atleast. The "energy limit" you said decreased his fusion time from 30 minutes to 10 minutes. And is implied that he spend 10 minutes fused while fighting.

Bro, he spents more than half of his fight yapping and laughing, trolling at Omega Shenron.

Like, all fusion battle have fused character yapping alot in the middle of the fight, Vegito trolling at Buuhan, SSJ4 Gogeta trolling at Omega Shenron, SSB Vegito also yapping at Fusion Zamasu and dude also yapping back. The only fusion fight that almost continuously fighting from the start to the end was Gogeta vs Broly, almost

 

[supertomioka]

Goatku's profile has a note for this

But the problems here would also contradict infinite speed

 

[Fezzih_007]

Gogeta had an explicit reason for why he screwed around. And I specified the DBS Anime. I don't care about GT.

I was thinking about SSJ4 Gogeta when I typed about the time limit, since we also talking about Toei too, not just DBS.

Bro, he spents more than half of his fight yapping and laughing, trolling at Omega Shenron.

I know, but there's the end of the fight when he's about to finish off Omega with a Big Bang Kamehameha, and he just defuses because of the time limit. He actually being serious, but he still defuses because of time.

And no one is arguing that Buutenks is Immeasurable Speed.
At most you can maybe argue he's Infinite Speed if you buy infinite uni.

Toei Buu is already infinite speed, that's what I talking about. I don't think I even mentioned Immeasurable speed.

You said not really then agreed with me that it's moot.

I missurdestood what you said, mb.

Simon isn't generally Immeasurable speed. Except that's just a likely key anyway, which suggests there is an issue with him having outright Infinite Speed.

Well yeah, but the point Simon don't really have any anti-feats for his ratings.

Also, Simon page is outdated. There's no scans for most of his abilities and ratings. I really wouldn't use his page right now to argue. He legit have a infinite speed that is not used currently.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Bro, he spents more than half of his fight yapping and laughing, trolling at Omega Shenron.

Like, all fusion battle have fused character yapping alot in the middle of the fight, Vegito trolling at Buuhan, SSJ4 Gogeta trolling at Omega Shenron, SSB Vegito also yapping at Fusion Zamasu and dude also yapping back. The only fusion fight that almost continuously fighting from the start to the end was Gogeta vs Broly, almost

Yet SSJ4 Gogeta was defused while charging an attack and Vegito while punching Zamasu.

Even if they spent 99.9999999% of their time talking and had 1 attosecond of fusion left, if they were moving at infinite speed on both occasions, the fusions should not have ended mid-fight. And, unless for some reason Gogeta and Vegito on that specific occasion decided to move infinitely slower than they usually do, and so did their enemies (otherwise they could've speedblitzed them. Even while weakened, a fraction of infinite speed is still infinite speed), then it is an anti-feat anyway.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I was thinking about SSJ4 Gogeta when I typed about the time limit, since we also talking about Toei too, not just DBS.

My focus is on DBS as that was the CRT made by Strym earlier.

I know, but there's the end of the fight when he's about to finish off Omega with a Big Bang Kamehameha, and he just defuses because of the time limit. He actually being serious, but he still defuses because of time.

Channeling an activate energy attack would consume energy. So it can be excused in a similar fashion to Blue Vegito's defusion.

Toei Buu is already infinite speed, that's what I talking about. I don't think I even mentioned Immeasurable speed.

And he isn't in Canon. Which is the main topic.

Also, Simon page is outdated. There's no scans for most of his abilities and ratings. I really wouldn't use his page right now to argue. He legit have a infinite speed that is not used currently.

We are on VSBW. You posted a character with a VSBW profile. We are discussing VSBW statistics. So I went by his VSBW profile. I'm not able to accurately gauge whether or not Simon being immeasurable or infinite speed is a genuinely consistent thing so I'm going off what has been indexed.

Regardless you already agreed Infinite Speed is valid for DBS so it's whatever. I feel like also noting immeasurable speed was also accepted for DBS. It just got dismissed as an outlier due to the ToP clock existing.

 

[XXBenShapiroXx]

Im crine these arguments are ass

Fusions basically only defuse because of energy consumption nowadays lmfao

Every sort of immeasurable speed verse has anti feats out the ass it's only an issue now because it's Dragon Bal

Its been years mfers need to get better counter arguements

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Calling an argument ass and whining over other verses having bad arguments isn't an argument. If you think other verses have anti-feats, go downgrade them, not use them to justify people disagreeing with infinite speed for DB and victimize yourself.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Calling an argument ass and whining over other verses having bad arguments isn't an argument. If you think other verses have anti-feats, go downgrade them, not use them to justify people disagreeing with infinite speed for DB and victimize yourself.

You're the one who decided to start whining about Infinite Speed DB. And no one tried to propose downgrades for other verses. That's a projection on your part. All that was stated is that it is very difficult to find infinite/immeasurable speed characters without antifeats. A factual statement.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

You're the one who decided to start whining about Infinite Speed DB.

I only expressed why I disagree with it, bruh.

And no one tried to propose downgrades for other verses. That's a projection on your part.

When did I say you were proposing to downgrading verses? I just told you that if other verses have antifeats that disqualify them for Immeasurable speed, just go downgrade them instead of saying "But DB is the same and has no immeasurable!". Or: "It wasn't an issue but now that it is about DB then it is!". You're talking as if a character having immeasurable is unchangeable.

All that was stated is that it is very difficult to find infinite/immeasurable speed characters without antifeats. A factual statement.

Yeah, when did I say it is not?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

-snip-

Not even reading. Just stop making a clown of yourself.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

If calling people who disagree with you clown makes you happy, that says a lot about yourself. Anyway, cool. Do whatever you want with your time.

 

[TiltedFN]

lol

 

[Robo432343]

Every sort of immeasurable speed verse has anti feats out the ass it's only an issue now because it's Dragon Bal

if it has anti feats it should be downgraded unless its very consistent

 

[StrymULTRA]

if it has anti feats it should be downgraded unless its very consistent

If these anti feats involve timers or random characters being able to see fights, then LOL

 

[Robo432343]

If these anti feats involve timers or random characters being able to see fights, then LOL

true
those aren't the best anti feats to use

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Can we downgrade MFTL++++++++++++++++++++ DBS due to Bulma being able to watch fights

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Can we downgrade MFTL++++++++++++++++++++ DBS due to Bulma being able to watch fights

Hmm...good point...Honestly, I'm starting to think Goku is only FTE when he uses the Afterimage. Normal humans can perceive his movements after all.

 

[StarShooter80]

Can we downgrade MFTL++++++++++++++++++++ DBS due to Bulma being able to watch fights

Agree downgrade the whole verse to subsonic

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Calling an argument ass and whining over other verses having bad arguments isn't an argument. If you think other verses have anti-feats, go downgrade them, not use them to justify people disagreeing with infinite speed for DB and victimize yourself.

Wow

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

When did I say you were proposing to downgrading verses? I just told you that if other verses have antifeats that disqualify them for Immeasurable speed, just go downgrade them instead of saying "But DB is the same and has no immeasurable!". Or: "It wasn't an issue but now that it is about DB then it is!". You're talking as if a character having immeasurable is unchangeable.

I’m almost certain that 90% of the verses on the wiki would be downgraded if we did that, and everyone would go back to MFTL or the speed of sound

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Tbh, most verses that have infinite speed or immeasurable speed are not treated as such in-verse. I personally agree that most of them should be downgraded way below.

Hell, even characters like Arale or speedsters like Flash only have "Immeasurable via time travel" for what other verses have a solid immeasurable rating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh, most verses that have infinite speed or immeasurable speed are not treated as such in-verse. I personally agree that most of them should be downgraded way below.

Hell, even characters like Arale or speedsters like Flash only have "Immeasurable via time travel" for what other verses have a solid immeasurable rating.

People saying shit like this then don't have the balls of trying because they know they'd get PACKED lmfao.

Only with DB people get this cocky.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Arale and Flash travelling across entire timelines is so cool. In DBH, I saw a few episodes where the characters crossed over into various different stories, but I didn’t look into it too deeply.

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I'm not trying it because I do not have the time needed to create a CRT that big and give it constant support. It isn't just balls what's needed for a huge CRT

 

[StrymULTRA]

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Whatever makes you sleep at night, boy.

 

[Vietthai96]

Guys