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No, Dragon Ball should go back to Tier 11-C
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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
CelestialVortex01
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5-D cooking?
CelestialVortex01
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Alright, this was actually a good one I'm ngl
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You are not cooking, my grandma can cook better than this.
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Grandma is an amazing cook bruh
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I agree, this is very factual
StarShooter80
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I mean no disrespect at all to Michael but a large part about that post seems to either be misinterpreting some information or just not fully understanding it, like with the Hypertimeline bit it's explicitly referring to the timelines of the dragon ball series, I'm not sure how it can be confused with the macrocosm when even the cosmology page makes the distinction clear
Fezzih_007
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Not sure why in the 5D Zamasu thread, the OP and other supporters are like "let the staff decide with the current arguments" when the arguments are being bunk.
I can see why It would be tiring to discuss with Chariot, because he makes his reply way too long for no reason, just to repeat stuff he already said.
But just ignoring It not really a good strategy to get the thread acepted.
I can see why It would be tiring to discuss with Chariot, because he makes his reply way too long for no reason, just to repeat stuff he already said.
But just ignoring It not really a good strategy to get the thread acepted.
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Killerdrone123
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I had the same feeling but alas I got no proofWhen you know it was copy-pasted from something but you can't find where.
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Chariot’s arguments make sense… but OP’s arguments also make sense… I honestly don’t know what to say…
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No, Bulk Spaces are innately considered Higher Dimensional, but they aren't considered significantly so (applicable for rating) unless it's infinite in size.
This would be true if the explanation for Time Skip wasn't contradicted repeatedly. Given we split the diff, this happens.
It's made of Nothingness.
Because this isn't the Hypertimeline.
Those are referring to two different Subspaces. The Overarching Subspace lacks the concepts of Space and Time, and individual Subspaces have their own variations of Space and Time. For instance, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a Subspace, has space (which is a plane the size of a planet) and time (accelerated to have a year pass in a day) but still exists in the Overarching Subspace that lacks Space-Time. Similarly, for Toei, the Instant Transmission is instead Time-Transcendent and doesn't have a statement on how it's space works (so it's assumed to be normal). That's how this Subspace functions...but also exists in the Overarching Subspace.
Read earlier.
Those aren't the Subspace, and that leads to a different blog. Additionally, the Hypertimeline is the Timeline. The cosmology goes the Living Universe, which is one of multiple parts of the Macrocosm (a limited Multiverse), which is one of 12 Macrocosms (a bigger multiverse) alongside other dimensions within an even bigger and superior area of space-time (the Timeline) which holds the entirety of the Multiverse and History. (And this Timeline is one of several).
The Wiki isn't for versus debating. It's for indexing first and foremost. The debating is a nice after effect and perk from indexing. Hence things like "Non-Combat Applicable Light Manipulation," and whatnot. It's about being an accurate chronicle of abilities.
Arale messes with a lot of the nature of reality, so I'm not sure what you're arguing against. That said, I have no real reference for Doctor Slump, so I can't say what is and isn't valid.
Yes. She does. In her setting, she's the strongest thing there is. She literally bullies Tori-Bot, who is her author. And Tori-Bot is literally cited by the Daizenshuu to be the most powerful being in the Dragon World (it's Author). It just so happens that the Dragon World shares a setting with Doctor Slump. However, because of the gaglike nature of Doctor Slump, none of the natural consequences or nature of her part of the setting affects the Dragon World. For instance, Arale has visited countries that do not exist in Dragon Ball. She's popped the Sun. She's even canonically met GT Goku and DBS Super Goku without even changing timelines. As far as Arale goes, you can't really use her to disprove anything in the Dragon World, because she uniquely spits all over conventional logic. This even applied when she crossed over, as she split the Earth with a punch, within Dragon Ball, and yet simultaneously the next scene it was all back together, with Vegeta remarking on how that makes no sense. She can do whatever she wants, contradict the Dragon World, and there would be nothing wrong, because her powers as a "Gag Character" allow her to do that.
Why wouldn't we? So long as they're valid, they're valid.
Cool. Disprove Krillin's scaling, then?
Scaling Chains exist, my guy.
Again, the Wiki is meant for Indexing, not Debating. We just happen to do both. If you believe Arale doesn't actually manipulate plot, make a CRT.
Countless Timelines exist in Doctor Slump, though, and we know her Timeline is shared with the Dragon World (informing how large a Timeline in Doctor Slump is), thus the nature of her Cosmology is slightly different than the nature of the Dragon World, but natively incorpates elements from it. From the side of the Dragon World, there's only like 7 Timelines, not countless.
Arale's level of power is dictated by her own feats and manipulating the entirety of her narrative, which spans the cosmology. (Allegedly). That's wholly different from basic 4th Wall Breaks.
Why would she have done that in Dragon Ball? She's only ever appeared in Dragon Ball as crossovers and cameos, all of which have her scale above the Dragon World (even DBS Goku). That feat is from Doctor Slump, (her actual story), not Dragon Ball.
I have no idea what Gravity Drain is. Assuming it affects Gravity, due to the name, if Arale resists Gravity Manip separately from that, then she'd walk it off. If she doesn't, she doesn't, but would have the opportunity to manipulate the plot to prevent herself from being harmed by it (given she gets narrative precognition according to her profile).
This doesn't say she can't be affected. It just says her C&E is different from ordinary characters, so others would need to have the necessary scope to affect her (or resist) her powers.
Why would we? Nothing that happens in Doctor Slump happens in Dragon Ball. Her setting ignores the Dragon World for the most part. And making assumptions on how the Dragon World affects Penguin Village would be extremely bad practice, considering how her setting operates.
Read the blog.
Only Zeno is 5-D (currently).
Arale can tank attacks from SSB Goku, so assuming she's planet level makes no sense. Also, she's likely above Zeno as far as I'm aware. The only reason Beerus is cited to be dangerous to Arale is because he explicitly (in vague terms) is said to negate gag powers. And even then, it's questionable because Beerus was beat by a gag of him needing to poop. (Implying that's actually not the case).
Take that up with Staff. Plot Manip is an accepted ability that can do virtually anything, even nonsense, so it doing this isn't a valid counterargument unless you have sufficient reason to believe that there's missing context (and as I don't read Doctor Slump and the profile hasn't really been kept up with for awhile, if you prove it, you got it), or changing how Plot Manip works wiki-wide.
If the Plot Manip grants you a resistance in your story, then you have that resistance. You have to prove that the Profile is using the instance incorrectly or change how Plot Manip works to say otherwise.
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After looking at the Dragon Ball's blogs, there are some problems that I ran into which I wishes to point out a few issues in this wall of text and the parts i delete i am fine with as i never said i have issues with the Multiverse Theory. Its just no one scales to the whole cosmology as Zeno exist multiple times in each timeline.:
The RoSaT in fact is a small universe that exist next to this one, which was proven thanks to the wormhole Buu and Buu and Gotenks created
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The Void clearly have a concept of time and space, otherwise the ToP can´t happen and wouldn´t have a timelimit. Some statements are contradictions and outdated.
There is actually nothing infinite in Dragonball, because:
1/10 of the afterlife and the living world which are supposed to be infinity. You can´t break down infinity.
Assuming it is really seperated by space-time, why is time still running there with exact the same speed like in the living world? Remember when The Saiyans appear Goku has to speed up and return over the Snakepath back to the living world. Nummerous people died while he was on his way. So i don´t see the actual worth of having a seperated space-time, especially since the afterlife can´t exist without the living world. It isn´t even really any sort of transcendence either, atleast not in terms of supperiority.
O argumento de que o Afterli é muito maior do que um universo que eu também não vejo aqui. Qual é a evidência real disso?
Quebraram através de algumas dimensões, sim. E agora?Nós não sabemos nada sobre eles e eles também não parecem ser superiores à vida após a morte. Eles nem sequer aparecem como sendo de qualquer tipo de dimensões superiores, em vez de apenas algumas dimensões paralelas dentro do universo.
Há mais contexto para? Porque o que eu li no scan não diz exatamente que mata na hora. Alguém realmente caiu naquilo para obter resistência a isso? Também note que Arale tecnicamente teria que ser imune a ele, já que os robôs não podem "Morrer" em circunstâncias regulares.
Espaço Neutro
Então, basicamente um volume? Posso estar errado, mas o Sistema Tiering do VSB não nega exatamente um Bulk como sendo automaticamente uma dimensão superior, ou eles mudaram as regras agora?
É mais como Hit pode usar seu poder em todos os lugares, porque ele traz "Tempo" consigo mesmo. Seu próprio poder gerou o tempo e deter o dito tempo.
Não vejam como é que isto proporciona algo de hipertimeline se levarmos em conta o Hit.
Mundo do Vazio
Tem uma fisiologia, senão Jiren seria incapaz de abalá-la. Também não está além da existência dimensional, pois eles lutam neste "Mundo", "Dimensão". Pelo menos eles não usaram mais a declaração do infinito. Eterno soa melhor.
Separados sim. Hipertempo não.
Ahn? Acima diz que dimensões e tempo existem, mas estando separados e agora diz a mesma bobagem que para o WoV.
Outro Bulk sim. Como eu disse, se isso por si só é aceito como dimensão superior, então aqui vamos nós, mas eu não quero 5-D Bleach ou Fire Force aqui.
Então resumindo. Você postou este mural de texto para fornecer mais evidências para as Hipertimelines, mas no final, quando ele vem para o tópico real, ele me liga ao mesmo mural de texto não-dizente que você postou antes? Mais uma vez, qual é a Hipertimeline real neste versículo? É o Macrocosmo, é o Reino de onde Zeno trabalha, está acima de Zeno, etc.?
From what i saw only, the ones i leave above can be considered somewhat a hax, because most of the mentioned abilities doesn´t count as such. They are just abilities.
- Interação Não-Física (Arale pode interagem com almas e fantasma.[49] Arale também pode interagir com coisas não físicas, como nuvens,[50] arco-íris,[51] luz,[52] e projeções não físicas[53](S)
- Manipulação Vida (Lata aleatoriamente fazer com que objetos inanimados ganhem vida[96][97](S)
- BFR (Via Realidade Subjetiva & Imersão; Ela pode-se deformar pessoas ou objetos para onde alguém a está observando,[106] como quando jogou Senbei pelo monitor de Suppaman, que a observava[112](S)
- Manipulação Espacial (Via Realidade Subjetiva; Ela pode manipular perspectiva para impor o entendimento dela à realidade. Ao fazer isso ela pode tratar objetos maciços e distantes como miniatura e perto,[3][113] mais vice-versa.[114] Arale pode fazer com que o espaço se dobre e entorte.[9] Arale pode combinar, repelir e contra atacar a espada de Senbei, que pode cortar o espaço[115](S)
- Power Mimicry (Arale has shown to be capable of replicating techniques used by other characters. This includes copying a character's fire breath,[69] replicating another character's ability to go Super Saiyan,[81] copying Toriyama's plot manipulation,[41] and mimicking another character's ability to launch and shoot text.[116] Characters are capable of copying abilities unique to other characters and races[117](S)
- BFR(Via 4th Wall Breaking; Arale has launched people through manga panels, warping them to different locations[124])
- Plot Manipulation, Text Manipulation, Law Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, & Existence Erasure(Arale can manipulate, alter, & erase drawings,[105] which are responsible for the rules, creation, as well as the governance of every moment of reality, existence, & the narrative. She can also script, remove, & manipulate the pages[41] which are the canvas for the drawings and where all moments of existence & the narrative resides on.[115] Arale can become equivalent to the Author and in doing so are able to gain complete control of the narrative and it's characters, manipulate pages, and decide every event that occurs on them. They likely can replicate the Author's usage of Plot Manipulation as well.[22] The plot can create and control abstract Beings.[140] When using narrative destruction, she collapsed the film reel her narrative is tied to, causing all moments of the animation to cease.[123] Arale can create, destroy, and interact with text,[141][116] as well as interact with character's speech bubbles.[88] Arale can manifest and project text through different mediums to have them travel to different areas.[54] Arale has started,[39]stopped, & ended the plot,[142] they can restart the plot if certain effects are applied, as well.[143] Arale has directly attacked the animation itself, reciprocating the effect of damage on reality.[144] Arale can Interrupt the plot[109] with various random effects.[126] She has change events, making it so things that happened didn't occur, as well as cause what didn't happened to occur.[39] The ideas that Arale has can change the narrative, having them become the main character, have the plot revolving around them, add and remove aspects of characters, the story becomes exactly what they want it to be, and they can freely alter the title of any story and produce the aforementioned effects.[39][145] Arale is capable of altering and removing the roles that characters occupy within the plot. In doing so, everything the character would have experienced and achieved will be altered to whatever the new role is assigned to.[126] The presence of Dr. Slump characters within any given story can alter it's plot, changing the original contents of events. Arale's ubiety within a fictional story caused the sudden appearances of characters from other stories and her presence completely changed the story[20])
- Transmutation, Biological Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Power Bestowal, Power Nullification, Statistics Amplification, & Statistics Reduction (Via Plot Manipulation; Since Arale can completely control the narrative. She can alter character's biology and even alter the character completely,[146] as well as change character's memories.[39] The cast can bestow new powers and abilities,[145] amplify their statistics,[39] weaken character statistics, and remove their powers[147])
- Space-Time Manipulation (Via Plot Manipulation; Arale can change the time period and setting the plot is based in[39])
The quantity of abilities are good, but not always a win condition, same with higher stats alone are not always a win condition either.
Also assuming Arale has all those powers, she still sucks against Beerus who hasn´t even a small fragment of said powers. I saw some people thinking Hakai is Plot Erasure, but it couldn´t even erase Zamasu fully. Like seriously.
Wut? Arale is pretty much physical, there is nothing abstract or conceptual on her. One of the biggest issues is, if the descriptions doesn´t fit the actual evidence.
Resistances
Snip
So much and then no Concept Manipulation? How is she countering it? And how is she facing Gravity that can even affect concepts? Guess we can take all of them without questioning its consistency. Also resistance can be only appear to hax she actually tanked or where it really makes sense by her physiology. Otherwise tanking hax makes the hax itself worthless and limited to physics.
You can´t affect concepts with gravity, and gag characters are not immune to that, they are mostly only limited to like said physical laws.
And don´t get me wrong. I think it is an antifeat that gravity affects Concepts, because you can´t grasp what is truely abstract. However, that doesn´t mean i can´t use the same argument. If logic doesn´t apply to gag characters, then they lose by default.
By the list alone Arale would solo her own verse by the way.
Dragon Ball Anime: Statistical Ratings
I skip this part, because i don´t buy into fancalcs and inconsistent multiplier stacking in general. Just a few points:
- I don´t have any issues with MFTL+ Dragonball characters. I only expect the fanbase is open to accept it for other verses with similar background.
- I don´t have any issues with universal and in Zeno´s case multiversal power either. Its just not everyone and their mom like try to give to Krillin lol
- If you are universal, then you are universal. If you are 1000x stronger you are still universal logical speaking. Like there is no higher "output" given, especially when we assume it is actually infinity.
Arale's plot prowess is akin to that of Toriyama's, making her able to create, manipulate, and even end the entire series.
Inverse mechanics are not relevant for crossbattles, as Akira and its creations have no power over other series narrative except their only copy right ones. I don´t get how Plot Manipulation in 2025 is still a thing.
The narrative contains many worlds, each of which has 5D timelines which are countless due to each timeline naturally existing for every day, hour, and minute that occurs in time, as well as each action in a timeline creates a new timeline meaning a timeline exists for every possible future.
It doesn´t even make sense as it doesn´t exist in the DB narrative, plus they don´t have any qualitive superiority like other verses that use higher dimensions, being it in size difference, transcendence or other useful power additions. If you have other arguments that are reasonable to put them there, provide it.
She can also go beyond that realm's 4th Wall, being able to manipulate the pages & animation which contains the entire Dr. Slump & Dragon Ball reality.
Fourth Wall breaking, yes. How is this relevant? Kid Goku broke the 4th wall with an attack already in OG Dragonball. Many character in Shonen Jump already did that. Its not really useful in terms of power. Keep in mind someone like Buu destroy the earth, likely make also Arale stop to exist, otherwise where would she go in that time?
Arale has displayed the ability to travel through time with sheer speed. Arale can lift and hurl entire manga pages and animation strips, which contains the 5D cosmology of Dr. Slump's reality. Can turn into a Super Saiyan.
Don´t remember she ever did that in Dragonball (Which is what we are talking about unless you take some cross scaling to Dr. Slump as being part of the same franchise).
Notes
Dr. Slump characters, yes. Plot Manipulation wouldn´t affect them yes. Assuming Plot Manipulation has a say in crossbattles, how does that protect her from Gravity Drain?
- Dr. Slump character's Plot Manipulation & resistance towards it is layered. Which means conventional Plot Manipulation won't affect them. Furthermore, a conventional resistance will be overridden by them.
Even assuming she has Type 4 Acausality, she still can be affected as Type 4 is also bound by layered levels of Cause and Effect. Not that layered hax of the same type makes even sense when it comes to "overpower" resistance as every verse have different rules about it.
- Arale's powers and abilities can modify the author avatars who have Acausality Type 4, due to being entities that naturally exist outside the framework of narrative. Being independent of its flow of events and are unbound by the plot of stories.
And yet you can´t give DB characters the resistance and feats from Dr. Slump as for that is so far need that the exact characters were affected by her power. Not that it is necessary, Arale her powers are pretty much limited to Z Saga assuming she was also destroyed altougether in the Buu Saga with earth. Her beating Vegeta later in Super but not capble to beat Beerus, despite the powers she has is really poor. Like can´t be an Umineko type of character with narrative and conceptual powers.
- Dr. Slump shares a setting with Dragon Ball. This is due to the fact that in Dragon Ball Super episode 69, Senbei pulls out the original Dr. Slump manga and refers to how the events of said manga are canon to them. Arale herself recognized Goku, thus solidifying the events of their meeting each other in Dragon Ball. Moreover, in Dragon Ball Manga Chapter 81, Senbei states that it had been a while since he had appeared in Shōnen Jump, this statement would only make sense if he was referring to the events of Dr. Slump. Which is the only time he appeared in a Shōnen Jump manga, prior to Dragon Ball. Thus proving the events of Dr. Slump are canon to Dragon Ball.
Where is the actual proof for any qualitive superiority? Zeno himself is in the same timeline as Trunks, He can´t even go to other timelines without the time travel machine from Goku. Even if you go further and assume Universe 7 alone qualifiy for such a structure, just destroy the universe and everything else around it would collapse, except the Bulk where the other universes were trapped.
- See here for an in-depth explanation of the Dragon Ball Hypertimelines for information about the cosmological scaling and tiering.
As much 5-D sound impressive, for Dragonball it has no real worth. Those are more parallel worlds where they have actually evidence for by going similar to MWI Theory. Heck, even DBH doesn´t have higher dimensions in a direct sense as Beats World was proven to be just an alternative future and DBH uses a superior Cosmology System thanks to the Arcade Machine.
But hey, if they are somewhat 5-D they should have no problems when i make a Gauntlet with other five dimensional dudes.
Arale can´t even survive the destruction of a planet, like she hasn´t even any evidence for it to do so unless you can tell me where she was when Buu nuked the planet. Arale can´t survive the destruction of the universe either, unless we assuming she is>Zeno which i think we don´t do here.
Yes, as dumb and illogical it sounds as real concepts can´t be affected by any sort of gravity to being abstract in nature, giving the point we allow Plot Manipulation a thing, we can allow Gravity do the same. Plot Manipulation isn´t above Concept Manipulation as their relationship depends entirely on the specific fictional universe, its rules, and the context of their application.In some contexts, Plot Manipulation is seen as the ultimate power able to control concepts within the narrative, while in others, Concept Manipulation could override Plot Manipulation by altering fundamental ideas, making their hierarchical relationship subjective to the story's internal logic.
Another thing is that it has literally infinity force, so higher dimension doesn´t even matter as gravity works there as well.
So far she has no resistance feats to it, and Plot Manipulation doesn´t make you outright immune to other hax, especially since she let attack you. Don´t get me wrong, Dragonball has a hand full universal characters too.
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How much are they paying you?
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Is he doing this on purpose?
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Chariot always write walls of text, he's not some Proxy Ai lol
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It’s time for Bulma to be upgrade to 2-C
Fezzih_007
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Chariot writting a wall of text is nothing new, but I doubt is a strategy to tire people out.
MichaelCalistro
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No, Zeno just doesn´t have any feats to argue he can defend himself. I never said he is fodder as he still has the best feat by wiping out a whole timeline. He is just not a fighter and yes, such characters are rather less practical in actual battles, unless you want to give Zeno feats and scaling that not exist.
MichaelCalistro
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The issue is, that you can´t explain it, instead posting a wall of text about how something should be. Think about why they can´t even argue it in a short summary, because otherwise their argument will fall inside like a cardhouse.
So explain it to me in your own words to make it reasonable, because the Blog in VSB doesn´t. That is fair and also not disrespectful. If you know what they are talking about, then you can explain it in your own words.
Otherwise it doesn´t even make sense for you to debate here, because a minimum effort to make your own argument should exist.
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Bring back the peaceful DB discussion thread
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Bro zeno destroyed a 5D Hypertimeline and even survived its explosion
Though I still can’t figure out what your main issue is.
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I mean, it didn’t exactly explode, he tanked standing in a pile of existence erasers essentially
CelestialVortex01
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StarShooter80
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This kinda just sounds egregiously disingenuous just summarizing the entire blog as just a “wall of text” when there’s actual substance, it’s explained in that length to give you an actual proper explanation backed up by proper evidence (which is also explained in length again, all just to make sense to the viewer).
The FAQ page already provides an easy explanation for why an additional time axis makes a structure Low 1-C.
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Weird. It's almost like you're copying and pasting someone else's response to a debate you're having, and hoping WE debate for you...Strange. Isn't it?
Hasty12345
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Bring back?
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It never left
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He's flooding the crt with this, i think it's too unnecessary, just one comment with all his points would be enough, he's made it too long and the admins haven't even seen the supporters' comments against him because it's too big.
Fezzih_007
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Is not unnecessary, the OP side keeps continuing with the arguments, Chariot should do the same.
Doing one post would't be enough.
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does it even seem a little "desperate"?
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I mean, sending a lot of stuff that could be summarized quickly is a common tactic to appear to add content
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That makes total sense, i think Goku with his low 1-C punches would destroy his verso
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More like a little Ruffy
MichaelCalistro
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No, Bulk Spaces are innately considered Higher Dimensional, but they aren't consideredsignificantly so(applicable for rating) unless it's infinite in size.
Which is where most fiction, including DB failed.
This would be true if the explanation for Time Skip wasn't contradicted repeatedly. Given we split the diff, this happens.
Sure, if the statement for it exist and no contradictions are given.
It's made of Nothingness.
Nothing can exist in nothingness, nothing works in nothingness. What Nothingness are we even refering to as it isn´t really what is described?
Because this isn't the Hypertimeline.
Kay
Those are referring to two different Subspaces. The Overarching Subspace lacks the concepts of Space and Time, and individual Subspaces have their own variations of Space and Time. For instance, the Hyperbolic Time Chamber is a Subspace, has space (which is a plane the size of a planet) and time (accelerated to have a year pass in a day) but still exists in the Overarching Subspace that lacks Space-Time. Similarly, for Toei, the Instant Transmission is instead Time-Transcendent and doesn't have a statement on how it's space works (so it's assumed to be normal). That's how this Subspace functions...but also exists in the Overarching Subspace.
And people already were in that Overarching Subspace before or not? Because if yes, then space and time become existent. Also a Subspace which is still a space can´t lack of space, and if something isn´t static in there but in motion then time is clearly given as well. Fortunately that apply to all fiction, and is in almost all cases used with massive contradictions.
Read earlier.
Those aren't the Subspace, and that leads to a different blog. Additionally, the Hypertimeline is the Timeline. The cosmology goes the Living Universe, which is one of multiple parts of the Macrocosm (a limited Multiverse), which is one of 12 Macrocosms (a bigger multiverse) alongside other dimensions within an even bigger and superior area of space-time (the Timeline) which holds the entirety of the Multiverse and History. (And this Timeline is one of several).
Thats why i asked you, to make your own argument, because the wall of text is unreadable. Post it, but make your own arguments for, so that it is undestandable works better.
The Wiki isn't for versus debating. It's for indexing first and foremost. The debating is a nice after effect and perk from indexing. Hence things like "Non-Combat Applicable Light Manipulation," and whatnot. It's about being an accurate chronicle of abilities.
The Wiki has its own board where Versus Debates happened and where it is later also added to the profile who has won or losed against someone else. You can use it under the given rules that you add it to the rules in a thread, but no one here is forced to accept it, as it is more unreasonable when it comes to Terms like Hyperversal, Outerversal, and so on. This by the way was here discussed since atleast 2019 when Etriel made several debunks and alternative options to a Tiering System.
Arale messes with a lot of the nature of reality, so I'm not sure what you're arguing against. That said, I have no real reference for Doctor Slump, so I can't say what is and isn't valid.
I mean her being abstract when she isn´t given under the circumstances that she has a physical, literal non-abstract body. And here is by the way the issue, you posted a list of her powers, abilities and resistance but how you can be sure that everything is backed up? They do revisions/crts all the time to correct mistakes, or do worse. And then again, what makes her profile on VSB right, but for example not in All Fiction Battles, Top Strongest Wiki, Anime Character Battle Wiki, OBD, Character Stats and Profile Wiki, etc.? Like they all have dependent Metas they are follow and we as a board are not doing that. You have the freedom to argue a character like Zeno further, ofc with the given evidence. You also have the freedom to argue a character like him below said level. It always works by evidence. I sometimes uses the Wiki Profiles as reference, but i ofc put it always in question as a lot is outdated, or taken out of context.
Yes. She does. In her setting, she's the strongest thing there is. She literally bullies Tori-Bot, who is her author. And Tori-Bot is literally cited by the Daizenshuu to be the most powerful being in the Dragon World (it's Author). It just so happens that the Dragon World shares a setting with Doctor Slump. However, because of the gaglike nature of Doctor Slump, none of the natural consequences or nature of her part of the setting affects the Dragon World. For instance, Arale has visited countries that do not exist in Dragon Ball. She's popped the Sun. She's even canonically met GT Goku and DBS Super Goku without even changing timelines. As far as Arale goes, you can't really use her to disprove anything in the Dragon World, because she uniquely spits all over conventional logic. This even applied when she crossed over, as she split the Earth with a punch, within Dragon Ball, and yet simultaneously the next scene it was all back together, with Vegeta remarking on how that makes no sense. She can do whatever she wants, contradict the Dragon World, and there would be nothing wrong, because her powers as a "Gag Character" allow her to do that.
Issue is that Gag powers do not apply in other media similary. If you allow her to manipulate for example the plot from lets say Saint Seiya, why should it work? Akira isn´t Kurumada. I don´t use Plot related characters in general, because of the high risk of incompatibility. Otherwise i would have to put the likes of Altair from Re: Zero, Umineko Witches, or some Cultivators on top there. I rely more on other feats they also have, outside of the Plot.
Why wouldn't we? So long as they're valid, they're valid.
Because the DB Fanbase did that over all the years here. Which is why they got a taste of their own medicine from the OPM Fanbase a while ago, as they don´t act different with their content.
Cool. Disprove Krillin's scaling, then?
There is no actual argument even for. If Krillin beat someone atleast equal to Perfect Cell, i would consider him as Solar System or Star Level whatsoever. Otherwise we do some funny scaling and Roshi as he operated in ToP too, scales as well. However in ToP not everyone is universal, they have all different power levels and some working more with advanced technology.
Scaling Chains exist, my guy.
The scaling doesn´t change the outcome. Being 1x more powerful to destroy the universe makes you still universal, because by common sense there can´t be a higher break of durability. In fact a Tiering System should and at infinity universal/multiversal as that includes Potency and Range as well. However, some people buy into higher infinities that are complete useless in battleboarding.
Again, the Wiki is meant for Indexing, not Debating. We just happen to do both. If you believe Arale doesn't actually manipulate plot, make a CRT.
Why should i make a CRT, when it isn´t even proven "here" in the first place? You bring their takes here, so make your arguments for here. But then you said:
If you don´t have no real reference for Dr. Slump, then why defending it?
Countless Timelines exist in Doctor Slump, though, and we know her Timeline is shared with the Dragon World (informing how large a Timeline in Doctor Slump is), thus the nature of her Cosmology is slightly different than the nature of the Dragon World, but natively incorpates elements from it. From the side of the Dragon World, there's only like 7 Timelines, not countless.
Countless timelines, yes. How does that help with the qualitive superiority? We know they are branching and will become more and more over time.
Arale's level of power is dictated by her own feats and manipulating the entirety of her narrative, which spans the cosmology. (Allegedly). That's wholly different from basic 4th Wall Breaks.
I see.
Why would she have done that in Dragon Ball? She's only ever appeared in Dragon Ball as crossovers and cameos, all of which have her scale above the Dragon World (even DBS Goku). That feat is from Doctor Slump, (her actual story), not Dragon Ball.
Then why people using her for scaling? Like when i mentioned Dragonball you brought up Arale as if she is relevant for the debate in the first place. Her most powerful stuff she shows in Dr. Slump and the best thing i remember so far she did in DBS was she split the earth in some way.
I have no idea what Gravity Drain is. Assuming it affects Gravity, due to the name, if Arale resists Gravity Manip separately from that, then she'd walk it off. If she doesn't, she doesn't, but would have the opportunity to manipulate the plot to prevent herself from being harmed by it (given she gets narrative precognition according to her profile).
Sure if she has resistance to it, then it should work. Or assuming she by physiology isn´t bound by gravity, such things also exist ofc.
As for what Gravity Drain is, see it as a power that drains/steal powers with gravity out of the opponent. In fact Ziggy even modifiy and uses a superior version of the powers he stole.
This doesn't say she can't be affected. It just says her C&E is different from ordinary characters, so others would need to have the necessary scope to affect her (or resist) her powers.
Yes, so far that is understandable. It means she just operate outside of the regular flow of cause, effect and fate
Why would we? Nothing that happens in Doctor Slump happens in Dragon Ball. Her setting ignores the Dragon World for the most part. And making assumptions on how the Dragon World affects Penguin Village would be extremely bad practice, considering how her setting operates.
Ok, so then again. Why did you include Arale in our debate before, when i was talking about Dragonball, if you separate her? Maybe i understand you wrong.
Read the blog.
I prefer your words and credibility over the Blog from the board/wiki. See it as a gesture of respect for the debate, because i will never throw some blog from another Wiki to you and force you to read it. That is the same with the people who post a 40 minute Dragonball Explanation Video from YT, instead of making arguments.
Only Zeno is 5-D (currently).
By power, or by existence?
Arale can tank attacks from SSB Goku, so assuming she's planet level makes no sense. Also, she's likely above Zeno as far as I'm aware. The only reason Beerus is cited to be dangerous to Arale is because he explicitly (in vague terms) is said to negate gag powers. And even then, it's questionable because Beerus was beat by a gag of him needing to poop. (Implying that's actually not the case).
Ok, then atleast in this point we both share the same view.
Plot Manip is an accepted ability that can do virtually anything, even nonsense, so it doing this isn't a valid counterargument unless you have sufficient reason to believe that there's missing context (and as I don't read Doctor Slump and the profile hasn't really been kept up with for awhile, if you prove it, you got it), or changing how Plot Manip works wiki-wide.
It is not accepted everywhere, but i tell you what. It depends on the debater you face here. Some will go along with and some doesn´t. There is no right or wrong in which Meta is used, although i prefer a more reasonable one. The same wiki brought also the Reality>Fiction nonsense.
It is not my job to prove the Wiki wrong or right, as they have no say here. You also said you don´t read Dr. Slump which makes the debate even more questionable, because we both should expect to know both verses. Don´t tell me you blindly take some VSB descriptions about a verse you don´t know for 100% accurate.
If the Plot Manip grants you a resistance in your story, then you have that resistance. You have to prove that the Profile is using the instance incorrectly or change how Plot Manip works to say otherwise.
You can only prove given resistance by feats or physiology. Like Arale can´t be killed by death Manipulation because she is a robot. (Unless we talk about some narrative killing shit) You can´t automatically give resistance to everything as that needs evidence in the first place. Resisting Plot manipulation, doesn´t mean you can´t be killed by Instant Death spells, as in a neutral battleground between two characters inverse mechanics are off. Make the fight like in Dr. Slump will be the only argument, or equalize the systems.
Bring back the peaceful DB discussion thread
Bring back? It never left
Bro zeno destroyed a 5D Hypertimeline and even survived its explosion
He erased the world around him. Where did he tank the erasure?
I mean, it didn’t exactly explode, he tanked standing in a pile of existence erasers essentially
And where was he tanking it? Looked more like everything around him was erased and as we know erasure mostly never gives a setback.
Though I still can’t figure out what your main issue is.
See above. It is really simple. And if you don´t believe me you can watch the anime or read the manga part again where Zeno erased the timeline/world. There was no indication or mention that it also hit him as it doesn´t make even sense. You are by the way not the first users from where i heard this argument, it is actually old so i am saying the same to you what i said to the others before you.
However, if there are any indications that his erasure also should affect him as well, but doesn´t work because he is immune to, feel free to provide it.
This kinda just sounds egregiously disingenuous just summarizing the entire blog as just a “wall of text” when there’s actual substance, it’s explained in that length to give you an actual proper explanation backed up by proper evidence (which is also explained in length again, all just to make sense to the viewer).
No, i just grow out of the nonsense people spread around over the years here without putting things in question. This isn´t even only about Dragonball. Look in the HST debates and you might get a gist what i mean.
And no, i am still not forced to accept a wall of text blog, nor to read it. It work that way:
- We both start a debate
- You make an argument and of course back it up with evidence by scans or a short summary
- I have either to counter those arguments with evidence from my side, or i accept it.
And then another issue: Why is it so difficult to explain why Hypertimelines being even in any way relevant? Zeno his existence isn´t even 5-D it would by VSB standards only scale to destroying the timeline. Nothing stops other characters from killing or haxing him to death. That all is too one dimensional, which is why i prefer not to make mostly Dragonball Topics anymore, because the verse is too inconsistent in that point and unfortunately a big part of the fanbase toxic and ignorant. I am saying this as a former DB wanker.
Like this came from you, so don´t expect me not to give you a proper answer. I say all this very respectfully, because i don´t see a point about ranting over fiction and start to insult other people. I keep it short. I don´t follow any VSB Meta´s, if you want do it feel free to make a thread and add it in the OP within the Rules. Simple is it.
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