Alicization Upper Tier to Relativistic

[Leafbladie]

I posted about this a while ago, but the thread never went anywhere, getting entirely derailed after a while, so I felt it best to start anew.

To cut to the chase, I believe anyone who scales to or above Fanatio (who dodged her own laser), should have their speed upgraded to relativistic. I know it's a rather large leap, but the laser fired from the Heaven Piercing Sword is stated by Fanatio to use the light of Solus itself. The light of Solus comes from a star in the Underworld, and the light we see from Solus behaves no differently than the light of the real world. The attack is magically enhanced, that much is obvious, but there's nothing implying that this would nerf the speed of light one would logically assume the light of Solus should travel at.

Does anyone disagree with this? Or is it okay for me to edit the pages of these characters, and their later appearances within Alicization.

Scale directly to Fanatio or at a higher level:

• Kirito & Eugeo (Kirito directly scales to Fanatio in their first fight, and Eugeo directly scales to Kirito as well)
• Bercouli & Alice (Integrity Knights who scaled above Fanatio)
• Quinella (Scales above all the Integrity Knights)
• Subtilizer (Vecta), Asuna (Stacia), Leafa (Terraria), & Sinon (Solus) (Super accounts scale relative to one another, Vecta directly scales above Bercouli)
• Abyssal Horror (Relative to Star King Kirito and Star Queen Asuna)

Relevant characters not possessing their own pages yet:

• Fanatio (Performed the feat herself, lol)
• Vixur Ul Shasta (Scales to Bercouli)
• PoH (Scales to Asuna and Kirito)

Debatable characters:

• Eiji Nochizawa (Scaled to PoH in their fight for the majority of it, though he folded pretty quickly once PoH went all out, so I can't confidently say that version of PoH scales to Asuna or Kirito, especially given his Dark Knight account was one shot by Stacia)

 

[Theendzero13]

If the laser is accepted as lightspeed then it is fine

 

[Leafbladie]

If the laser is accepted as lightspeed then it is fine

The laser itself meets conditions 4 and 5 for lasers. Fanatio states it's the light of Solus itself that composes the laser. It was also crafted from mirrors that reflected the light of Solus, so the origin of the light is Solus (Underworld's version of the Sun), again, a realistic source for light. It doesn't show any of the features that would disqualify it from being a laser (such as tangibility or non-straight lines).

 

[Dalesean027]

The laser itself meets conditions 4 and 5 for lasers. Fanatio states it's the light of Solus itself that composes the laser. It was also crafted from mirrors that reflected the light of Solus, so the origin of the light is Solus (Underworld's version of the Sun), again, a realistic source for light. It doesn't show any of the features that would disqualify it from being a laser (such as tangibility or non-straight lines).

If that's the case the I agree

 

[RitsuØ1]

The laser itself meets conditions 4 and 5 for lasers. Fanatio states it's the light of Solus itself that composes the laser. It was also crafted from mirrors that reflected the light of Solus, so the origin of the light is Solus (Underworld's version of the Sun), again, a realistic source for light. It doesn't show any of the features that would disqualify it from being a laser (such as tangibility or non-straight lines).

I agree with this

 

[Helestias]

**Moments before disaster

I will wait for a bit to see opposite responses

 

[Leafbladie]

**Moments before disaster

I will wait for a bit to see opposite responses

I’ll wait a week before actually changing or asking to change if no one voices dissenting opinions.

 

[Sero]

agreed

 

[CurrySenpai]

I gotta agree with this one.

Also I'm currently working on a PoH page just thought I'd mention that.

 

[Leafbladie]

I gotta agree with this one.

Also I'm currently working on a PoH page just thought I'd mention that.

Neato, looking forward to that

 

[Leafbladie]

So just to get a tally for now on the changes:

In Favor of Relativistic SAO: leafbladie (me), Theendzero13, Dalesan027, Problemexe, Sero, CurrySenpai

Opposed to Relativistic SAO: Kaantantr

Undecided: Helestias


If I misinterpeted your statements in this posts as one of agreement, then please do tell, and I will update this to reflect your true feelings.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Also just to clarify this would apply to these characters' combat speed correct?

 

[Leafbladie]

Also just to clarify this would apply to these characters' combat speed correct?

Yes, only combat/reaction speed. Similar to GGO, where LLEN can run as fast as a car, being an agility character, but Kirito has mach 11 reaction speeds, despite focusing on power. It’s pretty clear their travel speeds do not scale at all to their combat/reaction speeds.

 

[Kaantantr]

What the Heaven Piercing Blade of Fanatio shoots out is just a concentrated projectile of Luminous Elements, not a "light beam".

In the previous threads, we extensively proved how it does not behave as "light" or "laser".

The first recommendation I generally have towards people is that "Please stop citing a single cherry picked paragraph for your claims". At best, you are misinforming yourself and other people because you have not done due diligence, at worst, you are purposefully attempting to misguide people into jacking up your favorite characters.

And of course, some people expressing their agreements are one of the biggest culprits of the latter kind of behavior, despite fully being part of the previous discussions, having been proven wrong and to stop doing what they do by the admins as well.

 

[Leafbladie]

What the Heaven Piercing Blade of Fanatio shoots out is just a concentrated projectile of Luminous Elements, not a "light beam".

In the previous threads, we extensively proved how it does not behave as "light" or "laser".

The first recommendation I generally have towards people is that "Please stop citing a single cherry picked paragraph for your claims". At best, you are misinforming yourself and other people because you have not done due diligence, at worst, you are purposefully attempting to misguide people into jacking up your favorite characters.

And of course, some people expressing their agreements are one of the biggest culprits of the latter kind of behavior, despite fully being part of the previous discussions, having been proven wrong and to stop doing what they do by the admins as well.

Where did I cherrypick? There’s nothing to indicate that the Divine Objects in the Underworld use the Elemental Sacred Arts. That wouldn’t even make sense for Bercouli’s sword, which is able to cut forward and backwards through, what Element is allowing him to do that? No one says that Eugeo’s sword uses the Cryogenic Element, or that Kirito’s sword uses the Umbra Element. The Arament Full Control system isnpresented as something distinct from the Elemental Sacred Arts, and to conflate the two to say “it’s just luminous element” is an even bigger assumption than it being light of Solus itself, which is stated multiple times by Fanatio.

Cardinal even states in chapter 12 that the strengthening phase of the weapon releases its memories to manifest a new ability. Those memories for Fanatio’s Heaven Piercing Blade would be that of the mirrors it was crafted from which reflected Solus’s light to melt a boulder. Notice I didn’t say reflect the “Luminous Element”. There’s nothing to indicate that Luminous Element was involved in the experiments done, so why would it use Luminous Element?

This is why I keep saying it’s a bigger assumption that it’s Luminous Element than light itself.

 

[Kaantantr]

Memory Abilities function on the basis of depleting the objects' durability aka "Life". And Life Conversion results in Spatial Energy in all cases. These are the fundamentals of Underworld.

For your claims, you are ignoring the fundamental rules of the world to begin with, hence why my accusation of "cherry picking".

Those memories for Fanatio’s Heaven Piercing Blade would be that of the mirrors it was crafted from which reflected Solus’s light to melt a boulder. Notice I didn’t say reflect the “Luminous Element”.

Then cite which light it is focusing and reflecting, as you claim it to be that.

Memory Abilities are based on the prior properties of the object. They are not the exact replication of them.

Also, we know things like there is quite a lot of travel time, which is a typical property of simple projectiles. It can also go into a collision lock for seconds that Light does not do, as well as bounce off in different ways rather than predictable ways as light would do, when encountered with a surface it cannot instantly pierce like a mirror.

Please read prior discussions on the topic. I will not repeat extensive explanations just because the nth person decided to cherry pick the exact same excerpt for the bajillionth time that were proven to be incorrect takeaway due to lacking context and understanding before with many reviewers and admins acknowledging it too.

 

[Leafbladie]

No, I shouldn’t have to read it because everyone just accepted, ”it’s luminous element” even though it’s not. Which is what I’m arguing against.

Here you go, the mirrors “reflected the midsummer Solus’s light”. That is what the light ray is supposed to be, not Luminous Element. It’s enhanced through sacred arts, but that shouldn’t make it slower. I don’t see anyone arguing that the ice made from Eugeo’s sword is less cold than regular ice, or the flames from Deusolbert’s bow are less hot than the flames of the Phoenix, because the Sacred Arts debuff it.

If you can argue that light in Underworld is slower than light in the real world, or that the Divine Objects are somehow weaker than the items from which they are created, I’ll accept your debunk. Otherwise, I don’t really see how this is debatable.

 

[Kaantantr]

You see, you are still talking about the mirrors that it used to be. Not the weapon that it is that conjured an attack without reflecting anything, because what it is doing is converting its own durability into spatial resources for an attack. That you can literally see it being fired, stumble on a rock on the ground, fall over and have the attack completely miss you... Because it is not light and nowhere near as fast.

I also love the fact that you just ignored the counterarguments disproving it was light, while still pushing cherry picked descriptions of the weapons' past. It's a very common trick used by some people here. But it ain't gonna fly.

I don’t see anyone arguing that the ice made from Eugeo’s sword is less cold than regular ice, or the flames from Deusolbert’s bow are less hot than the flames of the Phoenix, because the Sacred Arts debuff it.

I can assure you, the Heaven Piercing Blade is just as much of a chunk of metal as the mirrors it was before. Sadly, it wasn't the sun itself.

Again, please educate yourself on topics. Check the threads made on this topic prior rather than wasting time of others who went through all of this before.

 

[speedster352]

I agree

 

[Leafbladie]

Sadly, it wasn't the sun itself.

Of course it wasn’t the sun, but the mirrors did reflect the light of Solus, and I don’t see what other property of the mirror is generating the memory for the light beam. Deusolbert’s bow sets itself on fire like the Phoenix, because that’s what the Phoenix did. Do you think it’s reasonable to assume the flames of the bow are less hot than the Phoenix. If no, then there’s reason to assume the light beam is slower than actual light.

That you can literally see it being fired, stumble on a rock on the ground, fall over and have the attack completely miss you... Because it is not light and nowhere near as fast.

Incorrect sequence of events. Sigurosig fell before the beam was fired. So this would be aim dodging. I.e. it doesn’t say anything about the laser’s speed or lack thereof, because the two events started in separate instances.

Again, please educate yourself on topics. Check the threads made on this topic prior rather than wasting time of others who went through all of this before.

I am educated on this topic, I have checked the threads. Honestly it just sounds like you’re being dismissive because you either can’t argue against it, or are being lazy.

 

[Leafbladie]

I agree

With relativistic or with Kaantantr?

 

[Leafbladie]

I do also want to add this as well. This is what the laser from Fanatio’s sword did to Sigurosig in an instant. Cut right through him cleanly like he was butter, with 0 resistance, with such an instense heat that his insides melted despite only being in contact with the laser for less than a fraction of a second. It’s much more impressive than the thousands mirrors that needed minutes to melt a man sized boulder, just self evidently more powerful than the reflected light rays. Why would it be slower then? That just doesn’t make any sense to me, and doesn’t seem to have any basis in anything mentioned about the Armament Full Control.

 

[Kaantantr]

Good thing you pulled up Sig's side of the event. You are half way there to proving what I'm saying. He topples over "the instant before" HPB is shot.

Now go check Fanatio's side of the event. At the moment she shot it, her crosshairs was exactly on Sigurosig. This should clearly illustrate you that the event of toppling is night simultaneous as the trigger being pulled. But due to the travel time, which would have been instantaneous for such a short distance, despite having been shot when Sig was still in the crosshairs, has missed him. And not only has it missed him, there was enough distance that another Giant had blocked the direct view during that time.

It's very simple. It's been talked about and disproven plenty of times. You are wasting time here, nothing more.

Deusolbert’s bow sets itself on fire like the Phoenix, because that’s what the Phoenix did.

You still do not realize the implication of your own argument. You say Conflagration Bow lights itself on fire, because it's origin, the Phoenix did so, but then go on to claim the Heaven Piercing Blade shoots light of the sun, when the mirrors only reflect them, thus requiring a source of the same potency to actually reflect, rather than conjure itself. Your core argument doesn't hold true to begin with and you are trying to make assumptions leaps beyond without setting your foundations straight.

This is what the laser from Fanatio’s sword did to Sigurosig in an instant.

Have you ever seen what heated up knives can do? It was quite the trend on Youtube a while back. You don't even need to heat up a knife that it becomes red to have smoother cutting of objects.

It’s much more impressive than the thousands mirrors that needed minutes to melt a man sized boulder, just self evidently more powerful than the reflected light rays.

You do realize melting boulders is a more impressive feat than cutting raw meat, right? You can cut meat quite resistance free with a regular kitchen knife. Try cutting a boulder with it and tell me how it goes.

Why would it be slower then?

Because it is not light. It's concentrated Luminous Element projectiles. That's literally why. That is also why it doesn't "reflect" from a mirror, but rather stay in collision lock for a second, before bouncing off.

 

[Leafbladie]

No, actually, the events go in this order, Fanatio has him in his crosshairs, then he falls, then she releases the attack. That’s the sequence of events. The giant says it fired after he fell. So this has to be the sequence of events. Yes, Fanatio had him in her crossairs, but inbetween the time between she did, and when she actually fired the attack, he already fell. Reread the section if you need, but this is the most consistent lines of events between their two perspectives, with the least contradictions.

Then pray tell, what memory of the mirrors is it replicating to make that light? It’s not like mirrors are inherently luminous. Simplest assumption, it would be generating the light the mirrors had reflected in the past. I’m not saying the sword is reflecting light, just that its generating the same light the mirrors had once reflected. Just like the Blue Rose sword makes ice in the shape of roses that were once contained within the ice block it was made from.

Also, we have real life lasers, that use energy to generate beams of light that move at light speed. I don’t get why this is so unbelievable to you that she fired a laser.

Also, you’re missing that it melted his iron hammer in half. Again, instantly, whereas the mirrors needed to reflect the light of Solus for “minutes”, just to melt the boulder. All she had to do was keep chop, chop, choping with that beam of light and she would have melted him until there was nothing left, in a fraction of the time.

That’s also a magic mirror, so any interactions it has with the beam don’t work as debunks either, I just want to point that out real quick.

 

[Kaantantr]

Fanatio has him in his crosshairs, then he falls, then she releases the attack.

No, she releases the attack when he is still in the crosshairs. The projectile shot forward when Sigurosig's upper body was in the crosshairs.

The Heaven-Piercing Blade thrummed and began to glow, shrouded in the brilliant light of Solus. The straight line extending from its sharp point intersected directly with Sigurosig’s massive body.
“Pierce him, light!!” she cried.
Schwoo-pah!! The air itself shook as a beam of compressed sunlight shot, blinding, across the battlefield.

0 mention of Sigurosig faceplanting before the attack was executed.

Then pray tell, what memory of the mirrors is it replicating to make that light?

That's literally my argument man. It doesn't. It is literally just draining its own life and shooting it as luminous element attacks. It's literally imitating its previous function based on what the system allows it to do, that's it. It's not replicating it. It's purpose was to condense and reflect a different source of energy. So all it is doing now is using its own life as the catalyst, and blurting it out in a condensed way.

it would be generating the light the mirrors had reflected in the past.

Please read that again, I'm sure eventually you'll realize how non-sense of a sentence this was.

Just like the Blue Rose sword makes ice in the shape of roses that were once contained within the ice block it was made from.

You don't seem to realize the Rose is actually still part of the sword. Both the memory of the glacier and the rose resides within the Blue Rose Sword. And also, Rose and the Thorns are completely up to Eugeo to manifest. The ability itself is to drain the power of others. The Ability and Manifestation are two separate functions. Ability comes from the weapon, the manifestation comes from its user. That's also why to be able to utilize the memory ability of a weapon, you need to resonate with it. You are missing so many fundamental information in your thought process.

we have real life lasers, that use energy to generate beams of light that move at light speed.

I fail to see how this is relevant, considering a game engine and our reality work in different ways.

I don’t get why this is so unbelievable to you that she fired a laser.

It's not that it is unbelievable. It's that it is wrong. That's not how Divine Objects and their Memory Abilities function.

Also, you’re missing that it melted his iron hammer in half.

I haven't missed anything actually. I'm just responding cherry picked stuff you throw my way bit by bit. Glad you realized that for once, you had missing information. Sadly, that means I now have something else to explain... But hey, at least this explanation is much more interesting than all the other basic info I was sharing.

The material something is made out of doesn't matter in Underworld in the grand scheme of things. What matters is the quality of an object. The materials you use for an object does affect the quality of the weapon of course, it's not completely worthless, but it really is a matter of stats in the end. You can come at me with a steel battle hammer and I can destroy it with a twig, if my twig is classified as a higher quality object. Which is exactly the case actually. Fanatio's sword is technically a mixture of metal and glass, that's what a mirror is. Mirrors are extremely fragile after all. But you'll see it going head to head against all kinds of weaponry. Because the fact that it is a mixture of metal and glass doesn't matter. Underworld is built with a game engine, and game rules take precedence. Heck, Kirito's sword is literally wooden. Yet Kirito uses it to block Conflagration Bow's Memory Abilities.

Now, going back to the topic, Dark Territory weapons are quite ***** in their quality. The only ones that possess some sort of decent weaponry are the Dark Knights, but even that leaves a lot to be desired. Shasta's weapon was really one of the exceptions, as it was actually a divine object passed down through generations of the order. The other weapons are just standard issue stuff. And even then, the material quality is not that high in the Dark Territory to begin with, so even if you match standard weapons of both lands against each other, it will be the Dark Territory issued weapon that will crumble first in an equal match, as in one person is not outmaneuvering the other in clever ways. Just lock the swords normally against each other in a swing, and the Dark Territory weapon will shatter.

Last but not least, Incarnation factors in. Check a little bit after, when Sig goes berserk and Dakira cuts him off. The reason his war hammer defeats Dakira's greatsword is solely because his incarnation pushed the hammer to a much higher level momentarily. So in the end, if your resolve is strong enough, your weapon can withstand a lot more, or can wreak havoc a lot more. And that is a good point to circle back to, because that is also exactly what Memory Abilities of a Divine Object is all about.

It's Spatial Resources, called upon and strengthened by the Incarnation of the user. That's why the resonance needs to be there between the object and the user. Because your will needs to be in tandem with what the weapon is all about to be able to call upon that power. And that's why when you falter, so does the Memory Abilities of your weapon, because you get thrown out of that resonance.

How does simple wood withstand the fire of a phoenix? How can a piece of wood withstand the same thing that can melt cast iron with ease? How can flower petals cut through ice?

This is exactly why you need a better fundamental understanding of how Underworld functions. Because otherwise, you make silly statements like you have been doing for a while in an attempt to save face, just to be able to jerk up some fictional characters.

That’s also a magic mirror, so any interactions it has with the beam don’t work as debunks either, I just want to point that out real quick.

Oh, almost forgot about this little bit. This is incorrect. The moment you give shape to generated elements, they turn into an object of that shape, with the property of the element used as catalyst. Kirito used both Crystalline and Metallic Elements and then conjured a Mirror Shape. While it is a mirror of low quality, as you can only create low effort counterfeit products that quickly disappear due to their low life value even if you don't do anything with them using Spatial Resources, it still acts as a normal mirror for all intents and purposes.

So no, the reason why the interaction is as it is is not because that was not a mirror. It was because what tried to pierce it was not actual light.

In fact, I'll take it one step ahead. If it was truly a light beam, it simply would not have destroyed the mirror and continued towards Kirito further with a majority of its blast. Because obviously, that is not how light works, it just reflects. This one doesn't, because it is a concentrated barrage of Luminous Elements. With only a bunch of them bouncing back from the object and the rest continuing their path despite having brought to a halt for a tenth of a second.

Anyways, this was fun. If you have more confusions, feel free to bring them up. I at least hope they won't be as basic as the ones before and will require more interesting information like the final ones.

 

[Leafbladie]

The Heaven-Piercing Blade thrummed and began to glow, shrouded in the brilliant light of Solus
The air itself shook as a beam of compressed sunlight shot

Again, more mentions of Solus and the Sun, nothing of Luminous Element. Why are you making this assumption? Offer me actual proof that it’s Luminous Element. Otherwise, it’s more reasonable to assume its the light of Solus, since we have more statements by the characters backing that up.

0 mention of Sigurosig faceplanting before the attack was executed.

Omission of details in narration doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Like, this is a common story telling technique for suspense, do you not understand this concept. His later narration fills in the other side of what was happening. Just because it wasn’t mentioned in Fanatio’s narration doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. And his narration, which actually mentions his own actions at that time, whereas Fanatio’s does not, would take precedence.

Please read that again, I'm sure eventually you'll realize how non-sense of a sentence this was.

Responding with incredulity to my point is not an argument. The mirror reflected light. The light of Solus it reflected is what it is conjuring when its releasing its memories, because there’s no other memory of the past item that would make sense, and because of Fanatio’s statements that it was Solus’s light, the sun of the underworld. Again, if you accept that the items conjure fire and ice, not things that look like fire and ice, or thermal and cryogenic elements that replicate fire and ice, why wouldn’t you accept that it’s conjuring light?

Like, do you think Fanatio is a liar about this? She states it over and over again, even to herself, in her own thoughts. Why would she do that? She has no reason to do that.

I haven't missed anything actually. I'm just responding cherry picked stuff you throw my way bit by bit. Glad you realized that for once, you had missing information. Sadly, that means I now have something else to explain... But hey, at least this explanation is much more interesting than all the other basic info I was sharing.

This bit was a cool explanation. However, even if his weapon is shit. The hammer still has a solid lump of iron on it. Are you telling me that melting through it is less impressive than melting through a regular boulder? Iron has a higher melting point, and is tougher/stronger than stone. By all metrics it should have a higher life than a regular piece of stone. Unless the crafting in the Dark World is so *****, it makes the weapons have worse life and priority than the components they’re made from.

object of that shape, with the property of the element used as catalyst. Kirito used both Crystalline and Metallic Elements and then conjured a Mirror Shape.

Then what’s stopping someone from using the Luminous Element with the property of light to make a laser shape? Why wouldn’t this laser fire at the speed of light?

 

[Kaantantr]

Again, more mentions of Solus and the Sun, nothing of Luminous Element. Why are you making this assumption? Offer me actual proof that it’s Luminous Element.

Your claim is out of ordinary. You are the one to provide a proof. And no, an in universe person stating things in their limited knowledge is not it. We know how weapons work. Your claim goes against them. This also shows you never actually looked at the previous stuff, because we had this covered plenty of times.

Omission of details in narration doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

Except there is no omission. The character explicitly stated the moment they shot, they were on target. Case closed.

A common story telling technique however is acting like multi-second actions happening in an instant for purposes of suspense. Like tripping on a rock and tumbling on the ground.

Responding with incredulity to my point is not an argument.

You never had an argument to begin with. What you said made 0 sense.

Like, do you think Fanatio is a liar about this?

She also states she has been summoned from the heavens. Underworlders lack information on how their world works. She isn't lying. She's just telling what she knows. Which isn't the reality.

This bit was a cool explanation. However, even if his weapon is shit. The hammer still has a solid lump of iron on it. Are you telling me that melting through it is less impressive than melting through a regular boulder? Iron has a higher melting point, and is tougher/stronger than stone. By all metrics it should have a higher life than a regular piece of stone. Unless the crafting in the Dark World is so *****, it makes the weapons have worse life and priority than the components they’re made from.

I think you completely missed the point here. I already stated I was giving situational answers, because the things I was replying was too shallow until this point. Hence why this was the first multi paragraph answer. You know, if someone is cherry picking, so will I. Something I do quite often.

Then what’s stopping someone from using the Luminous Element with the property of light to make a laser shape?

Because Sacred Arts is hard. As things are, despite the amount of progress they made with their use of Sacred Arts and Incarnation, they are still nowhere near what they can achieve with Memory Abilities. They are a massive shortcut to achieve things. Think of them as tools. You can try smashing a nail with your hands. Or you can do it with a hammer, which is going to be much easier.

As Charlotte said, Sacred Arts is just a tool to achieve things. Divine Weapons are just more powerful tools to achieve very specific things.

So yes, what you are suggesting is very much possible. But you are missing the fact that even the most proficient Sacred Arts masters cannot control 10+ elements properly. A single Luminous Element being launched wont do anything at all, it does not have the potency.

But remember what Alice did during War of Underworld? That's the exact equivalent of what you proposed. She created a giant targeted explosion that decimated the entire valley. It took a lot of preparation and a container to save up all the Spatial Resources, but it was exactly what she did. Whereas a Divine Weapon just pulls from its own life to achieve similar things, so it basically comes with a battery on its own. So yeah, this mention of yours was actually quite helpful at guiding the discussion.

 

[Leafbladie]

Alright, look I’m ******* tired. And my second job is starting to pick up, I do not have an infinite amount of time, so let’s just make this simple. When you have a debate about things, and genuinely are open to change your mind about your beliefs, by accepting the possibility you might be wrong, you should say what knowledge might cause you to change your views. Otherwise, you’re just arguing to spread your point, not further understanding.

So what would you need to be convinced of in order to believe that SAO characters have relativistic reaction speeds?

I’ll go first and say what would make me change my beliefs about this.

Either:

a. The Light of Solus is not actually light speed.

b. The sword isn’t actually firing the light of Solus, or a replication of it, despite Fanatio’s claims.

If you can prove either of these in a definitive manner I’ll drop this right now. But I want to hear now, what you would need to be shown, in order to change your mind on the topic.

Otherwise I think we should just stop, and let the people in this thread decide who made the better arguments for their view points.

 

[Kaantantr]

I'll make it simpler for you.

I don't care what you believe. My task is to share information and prevent head canon from spreading. And thus, I'm just addressing false statements being brought up.

a) There is only a single source of "Light of Solus". It's the light that actually comes from Solus in the sky.

b) The sword is not "firing the light of Solus" as Swords utilize their life to unleash Spatial Resources. That is simply how they work. Luminous Elements are not "light". Your claims go against the fundamentals of the world and you are literally citing people who do not have an understanding of many things in this world similar to how people used religion or myths to explain the unexplainable due to lack of a technology to observe the reality.

Otherwise I think we should just stop, and let the people in this thread decide who made the better arguments for their view points.

I don't care how disrespectful this sounds towards me, I deal with stuff like this on a daily basis. People cherry picking sentences and throwing the entire foundations of a world out of the window. But it is also disrespectful to a dozen other people who spent so much time in the previous threads to settle all of this and bring all information to the table, including multiple reviewers and admins. You have not brought anything new to the table (and I doubt you can, everything has been treaded already) and did not even seem to have the decency to check the previous topics about this that was basically about starting from what you were claiming, into actual factual territory.

 

[Leafbladie]

Eh, I just don’t think your headcanon about Luminous Element, or the function of the sword holds any water honestly. They sound like weak arguments that you have to bend over backwards to justify to yourself. So I’m here to shut down your headcanon.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Swords utilize their life to unleash Spatial Resources.

I do remember this being true, at least the part about Divine Objects utilizing their life to unleash their Perfect Weapon Control Art. Also while this argument is playing out I'll change my stance to neutral.

 

[Kaantantr]

In Underworld, aside from original system designated sources (Solus & Terraria basically) that are basically primary sources of where Spatial Resources originate from, everything else is in a natural loop of Life and Spatial Resources. And it is also why Sacred Arts (and Incarnation) is the basis of all of this.

This cycle is something built up over the time as more things about Underworld are revealed to Kirito. A weapon using its own life to conjure an attack of course thus only conjures an attack by unleashing Spatial Resources. Because that is what Life comes down to. It's a cycle that is started getting showcased as early as Selka healing Eugeo and gets elaborated upon often, like Charlotte's speech in the Garden, Cardinal's explanations, in most of the fights utilizing Divine Weapons etc.

The only exception to this is if the origin of the Divine Object is an actual System Object to begin with. And the only example we know of this is Bercouli's Time Splitting Sword which was the System Clock of the simulation. It is the only one that does not utilize its Life to unleash a form of Spatial Resources, but uses it to tap into the System Time Logs instead. It still uses Life to achieve it, it's just that it does not result in Spatial Resources being discharged.

So I’m here to shut down your headcanon.

This is going to be hard to achieve if you are only using cherry picked statements from people who do not have full understanding of how their world works. Needless to mention, again, you aren't bringing anything that wasn't brought to the table in the previous discussions.

 

[Leafbladie]

Okay, here’s a statement directly from Kawahara about the fact that both Alice and Fanatio’s attacks are lasers. My friend translated it, so here’s what it says:


The idea of Alice's photon laser is based on the story of how Kirito reflected Fanatio's Tenshoku-ken (天穿剣, Heavenly Sword) laser with an improvised mirror. It's a theory unique to the virtual world, that a pure mirror made of steel and crystal can reflect (i.e., hold) the elemental light without attenuating it.


So, right here, they are both described as lasers by the author. While Alice’s laser is described as stronger than Fanatio’s in the novel, it is not described as faster. There is no reason to make this assumption.


The mirror debunk doesn’t work, because it’s a unique trait of the world for how light interacts with this specific object. If I made a world where light behaves exactly like light does in our world, but mention that it also explodes when it hits a specific thing within the world, that isn’t a debunk, that's just a unique interaction that occurs within the world.

 

[Kaantantr]

And once again, you are showing your lack of awareness on the matter. Colloquial terminology. It is easier to describe something as "laser" than talk the exact specifics of it. The fact that he even referred to Alice's nuke as a "laser" simply because it was a luminous element based nuke that rained down from the sky.

We know "light" interacts with mirrors the exact the same way in SAO, ALO and all the Seed based projects. Simple reflections, going as far back as the first day of SAO. What's unique to Underworld is the interaction between materialized Spatial Resources (Luminous Elements in this case) and a specific object that has certain counters in other materialized Spatial Resources (Metallic and Crystalline).

Again, there are tons of holes with your claim, because you want to assume a very specific way and are basically trying to fit Reki's explanation into your own belief.

Alice isn't even using a "laser", she literally explodes the elements and protects herself with her flowers, because she has no way of focusing all that energy.

If what the Heaven Piercing Blade shoots is "light", then why does it behave differently than normal light? Because normal light just bounces straight from the exact same mirror without any issues? Why does "Fanatio's light" have a "unique interaction" when no other light doesn't?

Also, I have to point this out because it is not hard to prove what this "translation" is. Either you knowingly ran this through DeepL and lied you "asked a friend" or your friend lied to you and just ran it through DeepL.

Once again, I will re-iterate. Read the previous threads on this topic. Time and time again, it is a matter of "How it looks is irrelevant. How it behaves is what matters."

By your logic alone, I can go ahead and claim the Dragons of Integrity Knights also shoot out lasers, because the way the attack works is quite fast, incredibly hot and completely straight and happens as a blinding streak of light. But we know they are just thermal elements generated by the dragons being shot as a very condensed barrage.

Edit: I actually did check, plenty of Dragon attacks in the series are also being described as "beams" as I mentioned earlier. Despite the fact that they are high density thermal elements conjured by the dragons back in their neck. But because the attack looks like a beam, it is described as such. Because for illustration purposes, it is much more understandable when something is described as how it looks, despite its nature not having anything to do with how it looks. Because for a visual representation, it doesn't matter what it is. Readers just need to be able to accurately visualize it in their minds.

 

[Leafbladie]

Reki's explanation into your own belief.

That’s what you’ve been doing this whole time as well to fit your headcanons. The only time the word “laser” comes up in colume 16 is by Vassago, to describe how Alice’s attack looked like a laser in those sci fi movies. Which makes sense, he actually has some concept of what a laser is, while the other do not. That doesn’t mean it’s not a laser. Vassago and Kawahara both describe it as such.

Also, I have to point this out because it is not hard to prove what this "translation" is. Either you knowingly ran this through DeepL and lied you "asked a friend" or your friend lied to you and just ran it through DeepL.

This is what it looks like when ran through DeepL. Because DeepL doesn’t understand context or proper nouns, it doesn’t understand what Tenshoku-ken. My friend actually can read kanji, and while they used DeepL as a base, they cleaned it up:

Friend Quote: Photon is how deepL translated it. 光素, literally "light" and "origin/root/source", doesn't seem to be an actual word, as far as my sources are coming up.

But this is irrelevant, whether its photon, light, or luminous element, Fanatio and Alice’s attacks are the only things described as lasers, both by Kawahara and Vassago.

completely straight… beam

Yeah, this is a bullshit comparison. These aren’t straight, this looks more like a plasma beam. Unlike laser, which is heavily associated with light, beams can refer to plasma or light, and this seems more like plasma.

 

[Kaantantr]

That’s what you’ve been doing this whole time as well to fit your headcanons. The only time the word “laser” comes up in colume 16 is by Vassago, to describe how Alice’s attack looked like a laser in those sci fi movies. Which makes sense, he actually has some concept of what a laser is, while the other do not. That doesn’t mean it’s not a laser. Vassago and Kawahara both describe it as such.

So you did indeed realize they are being described as they look, not as what they are? Good. As I said, check previous threads on the matter to actually learn about the nature of the attack.

Because DeepL doesn’t understand context or proper nouns

So you understand context is needed to understand things... You do know what the biggest issue of places like VS Battles is? And it is not something they can do anything about it. There is a handful of translators here on the site to help people and what they do is they have to translate a single paragraph more often than not, without having any context of the series to begin with, how its terminologies are used, what nuances there are, what the rules are.

Which is coincidentally how some of you think here.

"I see sentence, I cherry pick it, it's me proof, who cares what the entire thing actually involves". This is why you don't even understand you are in the wrong. I said it countless times. What you are claiming is not how the weapons or the sacred arts operates.

Uses Anime depiction to disprove Light Novel descriptions.

Didn't think you would scoop any lower to be honest.

There was a storm of wings beating as Nigel and the inhuman
goblins who were racing into the clearing all looked up at the
same time. The massive dragon plunged toward them, its shape
dark against the fire-reddened sky, and opened its jaws wide.
There was a bright flicker in its throat, and—
Shwoom!!
Brilliant light shot forth. The beam of heat landed on the street
to the west and passed right before Alice’s and Nigel’s eyes,
sweeping over to the street east of the clearing.

I mean, it's described as a beam, it's also literally described the same way, being referred to as "light shooting forth". Because that is how these attacks look. It is not their nature. Their nature are the Spatial Resources turned into respective elements and formed in certain ways. "The beam of heat" refers to the fact that its source is thermal elements. The beam of light in your examples refer to the fact that their sources are Luminous Elements.

And this is exactly why I call your "translation" bullshit as well. It isn't cleaned. Your friend just thought 2 words needed changing, without knowing anything about why they needed changing.

You mentioned the kanji "光素" being called light. You know how Sacred Arts elements are mentioned in the Light Novel? "Luminous Element" is "光素", what you previously referred to as "light", however the Kanji is overwritten with Furigana "ルミナス" on top of it. The Kanji "光素" is literally referring to "Luminous" here within the context of Underworld, not light.

While I really had fun in this thread since the claims were either disproven ages ago, or that they were so barebones, your audacity despite your lack of basic comprehension of the material you are making claims on, is starting to run its course.

The deeper you dig, the more you speak without understanding what you are claiming. For the last time, I recommend reading previous threads on the topic, where we also talked about the specific usages of Kanji you so mistakenly claimed to be something else.

 

[Leafbladie]

Didn't think you would scoop any lower to be honest.

Misspell + you’re basic, jk. But seriously, getting mad isn’t an argument, the anime depcition doesn’t contradict the Ln, because there’s no mention of it being straight. Beams of plasma don’t necessarily travel in straight lines. This isn’t a debunk of my logic, because my logic goes as follows:

Kawahara and Vassago both describe the attacks as lasers. Fanatio describes her attack as the light of Solus, condensed sunshine, and I feel like she’d know the difference between the light of Solus and a simple Luminous Element. I think it’s a more logical assumption than her having no idea how to tell the two apart. Given both of these, I’d say thenmost logical conclusion is that it’s the sunlight of Solus focused through as a laser. There’s no reason it can’t replicate the light of Solus, and you haven’t given me a single reason it can’t.

Everyone was fine accepting Fanatio‘s attacks as light speed when they thought Kirito was just aim dodging, but when the aim dodging was debunked, suddenly everyone has so many questions like, “is it actually light tho?”

 

[Kaantantr]

Everyone was fine accepting Fanatio‘s attacks as light speed when they thought Kirito was just aim dodging

No. Everyone was fine accepting it was light speed, because numerous people here had a habit of taking everything out of context, as they have realized they can get anything by a reviewer who does not directly follow the series and has no better option than to believe the words of people who claim they know what they are talking about on good faith.

Some of the people attempting to agree with you here have actually been caught doing that exact same thing and warned for it when me and DMUA started taking these character jerking attempts more seriously. As such, we have started providing context to a lot of claims, which changed the nature of things extensively, and required extensive reworks.

Because obviously, 3 words spouted by an in universe character who are not aware of many things (Fanatio didn't even understand why she could not move, a clear showcase of she doesn't even have a proper understanding of Incarnation) are not to be valued higher as evidence than entire chapters explaining concepts in depth.

 

[Leafbladie]

Because obviously, 3 words spouted by an in universe character who are not aware of many things (Fanatio didn't even understand why she could not move, a clear showcase of she doesn't even have a proper understanding of Incarnation) are not to be valued higher as evidence than entire chapters explaining concepts in depth.

So you're saying that Fanatio has no idea what Luminous Element is? Wow, she must be a shitty Integrity Knight.

 

[Kaantantr]

So you're saying that Fanatio has no idea what Luminous Element is? Wow, she must be a shitty Integrity Knight.

No, I'm saying Fanatio has no clue how exactly a Memory Release works.

She is the second ranking IK. It's just that while IKs are the top of the chain, they still do not know much about the world. That's their point.