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Alice Anotherbible (Toaru) Revision

276
164
This CRT will feature additions and changes for Alice Anotherbible from Toaru Majutsu no Index.



Tier Proposal:
At least 9B
Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, far higher with Grabbing, At least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland.

Justification:
--At least 5B Physically, far higher with Grabbing: Alice physically matched Anna Sprengel, and eventually overpowered her by further amping her physical stats:
Anna could compete with Alice on her own, but that changed if Alice boosted her strength with something else.

That is, if Alice turned someone else into a weapon.

That absurdly powerful magic could boost her stats by forcibly equipping herself with something else: a sword, a shumai, a goddess – anything.

(Is that a superior version of Mut Thebes’s ability to absorb the shadow of any weapon!?)

“Gahh!?”

“Anna!!”

Alice made a further attack. The Gryphon extended her reach, so the little villain failed to dodge. She was pummeled hard enough to bend backwards.

Anna groaned and tried to raise her golden staff.

But Alice was again faster.

Alice was always a step ahead. To an unnatural degree.

--At least High 1-C likely far higher: Alice is stated to manipulate the world on the same level as Othinus:
The presence of Imagine Breaker suddenly
felt a lot less significant

It was a reference point for the world.

And so it could negate any and all illusions.

But that meant it had no effect on anything
that could distort even that reference point.

For example, his right hand hadn't been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

Alice could absorb the world to that extent.

She simply hadn't done so before now,

'What...is this place?"

Everything looked normal, but that was no
reason to relax

Kamijou felt like something was lurking on
the other side of an invisible barrier.
“That really depends on your definition of ‘save’,” said Othinus. “Human, would you really be saving her if you grabbed that oversized head and shoved it back inside the small body? Back inside that shed skin?”

She was a god who had once destroyed the world and been pursued by all of humanity as a great criminal.

That Magic God was saying this about another monster capable of ending the world.

She said it clearly, without averting her gaze from reality.

Reasoning:
--5B Physically, far higher with Grabbing: Alice was able to physically match and eventually overpower Anna Sprengel after she "grabbed" and used H. T. Trismegistus as a weapon. The far higher comes from the fact that she can use her 'Grabbing' miracle to wield anything and anyone as a weapon to increase her physical stats. This is how she was able to physically overpower Anna Sprengel.

--At least High 1-C, likely far higher: This one is quite straightforward. Alice is stated to manipulate the world on the same level as Othinus, who is also rated at High 1-C for manipulating an at least 11-D world. For this reason, Alice should get the same tier rating as Othinus. The likely far higher comes from the fact that Alice is stated to be able to essentially change the whole cosmology of the verse by making any theory a reality, but due not having direct statements of theories that go beyond High 1-C, it's difficult to give her any concrete rating that is higher than High 1-C.



Durability Proposal:
At least 9B
Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, likely far higher.

Should follow from her AP. She was also completely unharmed when fighting Anna Sprengel, Trismegistus, and several other Transcendents at the same time.



High 1-B Proposal:
He had never imagined the day would come when the word "god" had any relevance to the real world.

Both as a reliable ally.

And as a very real threat

"Basically, Alice is an extraordinary being
who can build a bridge between reality and
any proposed theory or concept, no matter
how inaccurate or contradictory it might be.

It could be the geocentric model, phlogiston, conspiracy theories about the moon landing being fake, that the Y2K problem would cause the world's computers to run wild and destroy the world, that neutrinos travel faster than light, or anything else. The Anotherbible provides freedom on a level far behind even the framework of magic. It might be faster to just say there is effectively nothing she can't do."

The 15cm eyepatch girl, who existed here
like normal, sighed with exasperation and
looked to the school once more

"But despite all that, Alice decided this was
the best shape for this place. That shows a
fixation, doesn't it? It implies that using her
all-powerful crafting to alter even a single
side path or building corner would cause
her to lose all interest in the place."

"But whatever shape it takes, this is already
Alice's castle. Human, this world will not be
kind to you"
Like Nostradamus, astrology, a dream that
comes true, letting a spirit possess you to
answer questions, or having an aquarium
octopus predict the results of soccer
matches.

It didn't really matter what.

It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.

It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone's intuition was correct, it could always be wrong

But that excuse didn't exist here

The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it
did exist.

If Alice said it would happen, then it was
guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about
what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on

Now was still an available option.

Alice's prophecy was not over yet. The
predetermined outcome was still coming
Was it even possible?

Had it been definitively proven, or was it
only a theory?

Alice didn't care about that.

It could be the geocentric theory, phlogiston, an ancient nuclear war, or that dinosaur farts caused the ice age. Of course, it could also be something accurate like universal gravitation or quantum theory. Accurate or not, if a theory had ever been proposed - if someone had thought it up and put together the logic behind it - she could build a bridge to it.

She could choose whichever theories
she wanted and link to them to wholly
change the world. She was the ultimate
conversion device. She could place Yamatai anywhere she liked, she could invent a perpetual motion machine of the first kind to produce unlimited energy, or she could remake the spherical Earth into a flat disk.

So there just had to be a single section in
the more than 10 thousand grimoires

Just one passage

Even a single line would do.

No matter how absurd or difficult to achieve it was

Alice could easily activate it and save
Kamijou.
There have been suggestions within the Toaru community that Alice's ability (described in the quotes above) to make any proposed theory a reality and use it to change the world should place her at High 1-B. This is mainly due to the existence of Schrodinger, the Uncertainty Principle and the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics within the verse.

He wanted to live that life. Was he allowed to wish for something like that?

"Academy City's esper powers have a foundation in quantum physics. Quantum physics is useful in describing the behavior of subatomic particles like protons and electrons as well as the four fundamental forces of the strong force, the weak force, gravity, and electromagnetism, but you will almost certainly never be aware of the changes caused by the observations you make in an ordinary life. You can't make an apple disappear by willing it to disappear, after all. You can think of those changes like imaginary numbers – they are necessary to explain the way the world works, but you are never really aware of them. Normally, anyway."

She had complained about having to give this makeup lesson, but once she got going, she proved herself to be a true teacher.

Her words flowed smoothly, but she changed her intonation on the important terms so they would stick out in Kamijou's mind.
Komoe-sensei tried to use the saibashi to get the other two to eat some carrots instead of just eating meat, but they ignored it.

"Schrödinger?"

"Yes. Schrödinger is the name of a teacher of quantum mechanics. He left behind the story of Schrödinger's cat. The story may sound rather cruel to those who love pets, so I think I'll change it a bit."

Komoe-sensei put vegetables on top of the meat that had finished cooking and placed them on Index's small plate. Index immediately took off the vegetables and gave them to the cat, but the cat rejected them with a cat punch.

"There is a box here," said Komoe-sensei as she grabbed a box for chocolates from the floor with her other hand. "Now what do you think is inside, Sister-chan?"

"Mh. Chocolates of course. Touma has the same kind in his house."

"But this box has hard candy inside."

"Why would you put that inside…?"

"Now then, Sister-chan. What is inside this box?"

"You just said it has hard candy inside!"

"Yes, but you don't know unless you open it up. I could have been lying."

"…"

"So there are now two possibilities: the possibility that chocolates are inside or the possibility that hard candies are inside. Of course, only one of those can be true. However, when we're just talking about possibilities, both possibilities are jumbled together."

Komoe-sensei lightly waved the box for chocolates around.

"Those two possibilities appear as a single result once the box is opened to check on what the contents are. Originally, the contents had a 50% chance of being chocolates and a 50% chance of being hard candies, but once you look it changes to a 100% chance of being chocolates."

Komoe-sensei opened the box and small chocolates were inside.

"Now then," she said closing the box again. "Assuming the two possibilities were 50% chocolates and 50% hard candies, what do you think is inside this box, Sister-chan?"

"??? I don't really get it, but I saw chocolates in there just now."

"Yes. A normal person will choose the 50% chance of chocolates at this point." Komoe-sensei waved the box around again. "But what would happen if there was a person who could choose the 50% chance of hard candies?"

"Mhh? Then the contents of the box would become hard cand-…"

Index trailed off and seemed to have realized something.

A strange phenomenon outside of the normal would occur.

"That is the true identity of psychic powers. There are many possibilities in this reality. Among them are the possibility that fire can come from one's hand and the possibility of reading someone's mind. Because those 1% possibilities differ from the 99% possibility of the natural thing happening, they can be referred to as supernatural powers." Komoe-sensei spun around the saibashi. "However, this is also why supernatural powers are not almighty. For instance, in our example there was a 50% possibility of chocolates and a 50% possibility of hard candies, so there was a 0% possibility of gum being inside. These powers cannot be used in places or conditions that have no possibility in the first place."

"???"

"When we refer to espers, we refer to someone whose ability to view the reality of the 50% chocolates vs. 50% hard candies differs from that of normal people. RPSK Syndrome, commonly referred to as a poltergeist, is caused by children who are no longer able to properly view reality due to trauma or excessive stress. The Ganzfeld experiment used in powers development purposefully seals off the senses in order cut one off from the proper reality." Komoe-sensei continued to spin the saibashi around. "Espers who are cut off from the proper reality gain a personal reality that differs from ours. As a result, they can distort a micro world using different laws. In other words they gain the power to destroy things without touching them or to see one year into the future by closing their eyes."

Komoe-sensei's words seemed like an otherworldly language, so Index did not understand.

"The development we carry out is to artificially create personal realities. Simply put, we use things like drugs and suggestions to help cause certain types of damage in the brain."

The existence of the Copenhagen Interpretation within the verse heavily implies the existence of John von Neumann, and his theory of Hilbert Space.

The main connection to be made here is that the Copenhagen interpretation is intrinsically tied to the Hilbert space formulation of quantum mechanics, as it provides the mathematical structure to represent quantum states, observables, measurement, and the key principles of indeterminacy and complementarity that are central to this interpretation. Hilbert space, as defined by von Neumann, provides the mathematical structure to describe quantum states and observables in quantum mechanics. In this framework, wave functions are represented as vectors in Hilbert space, and observables are described by linear operators. The Copenhagen interpretation describes measurement as an irreversible process that causes the wavefunction to "collapse" probabilistically onto one of the eigenstates of the measured observable. This collapse is a key feature of the Copenhagen Interpretation and is formalized using the projection postulate in the Hilbert space formalism. Additionally, the Copenhagen interpretation emphasizes the principle of complementarity, which states that certain pairs of observables (like position and momentum) are incompatible and cannot be measured simultaneously with arbitrary precision. This is reflected in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which is a mathematical consequence of representing these observables as non-commuting Hermitian operators in Hilbert space.

In short, the Copenhagen Interpretation and the Hilbert space formalism of quantum mechanics are deeply intertwined, with the latter providing the essential mathematical foundation for the key principles and concepts of the former. The two are intrinsically linked, and it would be difficult to argue the existence of the Copenhagen Interpretation without Hilbert Space.

Now of course the theory merely existing within the verse wouldn't normally be able to grant it any tier, as there's no real reason to assume that the cosmology of the verse is built on said theory. But when coupled with the canonical fact that Alice can make any theory that exists within the verse a reality and change the cosmology of the verse, we can see the connection and justification for her being able to be rated High 1-B.

If accepted, this would replace the High 1-C rating proposed above.

I imagine it should also grant her Dimensional Manipulation.



Speed Rating Proposal:
At least Speed of Light Attack Speed & Reactions (Reacted to, and Blitzed Trismegistus, whose sword slashes are stated to be light), Infinite movement speed when Walking, Sub-Relativistic Attack Speed and Reactions for the flamingo cricket bat (Intercepted Rosencreutz's attack), Massively FTL+ throwing speed (Once got upset and threw her ceramic pot to a planet dozens of lightyears away).

--Speed of Light attack and reaction speed: Alice could easily react to and blitz Trismegistus, whose sword slashes are stated to be actual light.
The young butler did not hesitate to move.

Light flashed from his right hand as the blade
hidden in his cane turned to light and sliced
through the floor. The strange slash had an effect well beyond the length of the sword. And it struck right were crawling Alice's lowered head was. It definitely hit. Except the metal blade passed right through her. Like she was intangible.
The young butler once more held his right hand to the staff at his hip in an iaido pose.

The meaning of his sword strikes had changed.

But he was a moment too slow.

With a dull thud, the equilibrium was broken. Anna’s small body took a powerful blow.
But Alice was again faster.

Alice was always a step ahead. To an unnatural degree.

She grabbed H.T. Trismegistus’s wrist as he tried to attack her from the side. She turned him into a weapon, equipped that weapon, and swung it artlessly to the side.

A direct hit.

A dull impact rang loud.
Based on what Kamijou had seen, those sword strikes came in more than one variety.

Lightning.

Light.

Water.

Crystal.

How did it have so much variety? The young butler himself had said it wasn’t Zeus, but
even knowing that, Kamijou couldn’t believe what he was seeing.

Aradia and the Bologna Succubus’s spells were supposedly powerful enough to fight the
entire magic side on their own. Same for Good, Old Mary’s resurrection.

Was Trismegistus the same?

He could infuse his sharp blade into any phenomenon, so if he wasn’t afraid of cutting
himself, could he fill this entire universe with miniscule death and destruction?

[...]

The young butler could apparently infuse his sword strikes into a variety of ordinary
phenomena like light and water. So could he apply a cutting edge to the an
electric field and not just to a lightning strike?

--Infinite movement speed: Alice can appear wherever she wills instantly, no matter the distance, and seemingly in no time. The moment she physically takes action to move, she's already arrived at her destination.
She took a step

Just one.

"Touma, she's coming!!"

"!!!???"

He understood that, but he couldn't restrain his reflexes as a living being. Crossing his arms in front of his face was a definite mistake.

The sweet scent of tea filled the boy's nose

Something was overpowering the library's old paper smell.

Alice Anotherbible already stood behind Kamijou.

Walking

In other words, she took action to move to her desired location.

She had not formed a special shape with her fingers, nor had she stepped in a a complex pattern.

She had taken the same action anyone could.

She was blessed with a special result without having to focus on it.

The meaning extracted from her ordinary actions was just too pure!?

"Ali-!?"

She was already right there
Alice tugged on her hair binding the flames, causing little Anna to pitch forward and lose her balance.

At that same moment, the grown woman took a step forward. They had seen what this did already. Whatever the distance, Alice would have already arrived at her destination.

Which meant right in front of Kamijou.



Abilities Addition:
The following are abilities that Alice has demonstrated, that are to be added to her profile:

1. Passive Social Influencing/Madness Manipulation: She has insane passive social influencing bordering on mental manipulation.
"Hm? Oh, you mean Kotatsu Syndrome?"
If he was being honest, he had completely
forgotten. He had assumed that had just
gone away once New Board Chairman
Accelerator declared martial law

That strange form of group psychology led
people to passively protest their entrance
exams and the new school term by lazing
around instead.

It led people to shortsightedly seek peace
and comfort without worrying about the
later consequences

"Let's head outside" was all Othinus said. "It
may not be visible from here, but you will
see soon enough."

Skeptical, Kamijou walked to the hospital
exit after his release process was complete.

The glass door was partially soundproofed.
probably to make life in the hospital more
comfortable for the patients

Something was exploding outside

At first, Kamijou had no idea what it was

He really did think something was exploding in the distance.

But when he listened more closely, he
realized it was an amalgam of voices.

"I'm sick of this martial law! You can't tell me what to do anymore-

"They're keeping down the little guy. as
usual!"

"Flip them!! Flip all those armored
monstrosities!"

Was that a wave of people? Were those
strange voices and noises being made by
human beings?

"I already saw it all on the way here."

Maybe the hospital was so busy because
people were claiming to feel sick and hiding out there for safety.

"It probably began with the melancholy
caused by winter break ending and the new
school term beginning," quietly explained
Othinus. "Then the new Board Chairman
declared martial law and banned them from leaving their homes, so their frustrations grew as their vacation passed them by under those restrictions. When Alice Anotherbible's return triggered a resurgence of Kotatsu Syndrome, it pushed all the city's residents' minds in the opposite direction".

This is entirely different from the gentle
social phenomenon built on escapism. I get the sense that, whether it will help them or hurt them, they will yell at and physically attack anyone who tries to boss them around."

This wasn't Kamijou's first time seeing a
city-wide riot.

For example, he had seen Academy City
during the Christmas season when Anna
Sprengel had arranged the rise of R&C
Occultics.

For example, he had seen Shibuya on
December 31 flooded with the youths
influenced by the Transcendents Aradia and the Bologna Succubus.

But this was different from those.

When it was caused by Alice Anotherbible
the nature of the riot changed.

"It's beginning"

"Acute Kotatsu Syndrome is a very different
threat from CRC, who was the ultimate
individual. This is a new trend- a countdown toward destruction by a group. If nothing is done about Alice, Academy City will be brought down by internal violence.

Maybe it could be stopped by a military
force, but that would require Anti-Skill, or
whoever else, to fire live ammunition on the
people of the city."
Othinus stared into the distance

She was more bothered by the moral
collapse than by the actual destruction.

"These people treating Academy City like
their own secret base will bring down the
city. And the world economy supported by
science will go down with it. They can't
suppress this with force like they do with
demonstrations. Not when it's backed by
Alice's charisma. This is being fueled from
the outside. Aiming a gun at these students
will not stop them, nor will actually firing on
them. So like I said, the only way to stop this is to slaughter every last Academy City
resident with Academy City's guns. Win or
lose, the city is done for."

It Was a shift a distortion in morals.

Even if captured Index lost her life now,
would it be caught up in this bizarre scenery and converted into something that was considered "for the best"?

If so, Kamijou had to settle this before that
happened.

He had to draw on everything he had and
face Alice.

He understood what had to be done.

"But...

Misaka Mikoto had died. ******** ****** had died too. (..? Why did I think there was
someone else there?)

2. Concept Manipulation (Type 2?)/Subjective Reality: She has the power to make any theory that has ever been proposed a reality:
He had never imagined the day would come when the word "god" had any relevance to the real world.

Both as a reliable ally.

And as a very real threat

"Basically, Alice is an extraordinary being
who can build a bridge between reality and
any proposed theory or concept, no matter
how inaccurate or contradictory it might be.

It could be the geocentric model, phlogiston, conspiracy theories about the moon landing being fake, that the Y2K problem would cause the world's computers to run wild and destroy the world, that neutrinos travel faster than light, or anything else. The Anotherbible provides freedom on a level far behind even the framework of magic. It might be faster to just say there is effectively nothing she can't do."

The 15cm eyepatch girl, who existed here
like normal, sighed with exasperation and
looked to the school once more

"But despite all that, Alice decided this was
the best shape for this place. That shows a
fixation, doesn't it? It implies that using her
all-powerful crafting to alter even a single
side path or building corner would cause
her to lose all interest in the place."

"But whatever shape it takes, this is already
Alice's castle. Human, this world will not be
kind to you"
Like Nostradamus, astrology, a dream that
comes true, letting a spirit possess you to
answer questions, or having an aquarium
octopus predict the results of soccer
matches.

It didn't really matter what.

It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.

It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone's intuition was correct, it could always be wrong

But that excuse didn't exist here

The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it
did exist.

If Alice said it would happen, then it was
guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about
what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on

Now was still an available option.

Alice's prophecy was not over yet. The
predetermined outcome was still coming
Was it even possible?

Had it been definitively proven, or was it
only a theory?

Alice didn't care about that.

It could be the geocentric theory, phlogiston, an ancient nuclear war, or that dinosaur farts caused the ice age. Of course, it could also be something accurate like universal gravitation or quantum theory. Accurate or not, if a theory had ever been proposed - if someone had thought it up and put together the logic behind it - she could build a bridge to it.

She could choose whichever theories
she wanted and link to them to wholly
change the world. She was the ultimate
conversion device. She could place Yamatai anywhere she liked, she could invent a perpetual motion machine of the first kind to produce unlimited energy, or she could remake the spherical Earth into a flat disk.

So there just had to be a single section in
the more than 10 thousand grimoires

Just one passage

Even a single line would do.

No matter how absurd or difficult to achieve it was

Alice could easily activate it and save
Kamijou.

3. Intangibility: Alice can avoid any attack simply by intending/moving to do so:
Kamijou spun around and swung his right hand back in something like a backhand blow.

But it found only air.

The grown woman pressed her four limbs down against the floor like an animal and lowered her head as far as it would go

Crawling

She had moved to his blind spot and then his last-second counterattack had missed. What this meant squeezed at his heart. He might as well have offered her the perfect chance to attack him.

The young butler did not hesitate to move.

Light flashed from his right hand as the blade hidden in his cane turned to light and sliced through the floor. The strange slash had an effect well beyond the length of the sword. And it struck right were crawling Alice's lowered head was. It definitely hit. Except the metal blade passed right through her. Like she was intangible.

A specific meaning had been extracted from her ordinary action: evasion.

"It doesn't matter if you hit her or not!?" hatefully spat Othinus.

As long as the adult woman moved to dodge, no external damage could affect her. Even if she took a direct hit from a nuclear missile. Alice showed no interest in H.T. Trismegistus even with his attempted decapitation of her. Still crawling, she raised her head and casually extended her hand toward Kamijou

"I was right."

Apparently the young butler's attack had been to check something

He had ended up cutting through the floor below Alice instead of her, so it fell.

That had been his intent from the beginning

He had intentionally destroyed the floor so he could gather more information and survive.

4. Spatial Manipulation: Alice can stop all movement of a target she chooses, isolating them from outside interference:
Alice grabbed her long hair as a single mass.

And she swung her head around.

In a move straight out of kabuki, the thick bundle of hair drew a large circle in the air, which narrowed down as soon as the crimson flames passed through it.

The orange flames stopped in midair.

Binding.

In other words, stopping all movement of a
target. And separating the target out from all possible interference.

"Tch!"

The Pneuma-less Shell was Anna's spiritual item but what weapon she acquired was a matter of chance. She wouldn't receive the same weapon if she tried again.

5. She can make every attack miss her, even after it has been fired, by confusing the attack(s) aimed/locked on to her.
A sharp voice rang through the broken faculty room. Aradia held out her palm and launched a scattershot of light to keep Alice back. Each shot moved like a sea snake as they tore through the air and targeted adult Alice from multiple angles.

The storybook girl said nothing

She didn't even look Aradia's way

She only extended a finger and rotated it once clockwise.

Like some kind of joke, all of the glowing
projectiles veered away from the fully-grown woman, blasting through walls and pillars instead.

Cursing.

That one childish action easily confused every eye on her, bringing them under her spell.

"Kh."

6. Transmutation & Weapon Creation & Mind Manipulation: Alice can turn anything into a weapon, be it an object, phenomenon or a living being, by simply grabbing it, robbing it of its will in the process:
With a single hand, Alice casually grabbed the beaten-up Gryphon to use it as a weapon.

As if it were a giant club

Grabbing

The act of denying an object its own will and applying her own will to it by unilaterally wielding it for its offensive or defensive functionality

Anna could compete with Alice on her own, but that changed if Alice boosted her strength with something else.

That is, if Alice turned someone else into a
weapon.

That absurdly powerful magic could boost her stats by forcibly equipping herself with
something else: a sword, a shumai, a goddess—anything.

(Is that a superior version of Mut Thebes's ability to absorb the shadow of any weapon!?)
Anna groaned and tried to raise her golden staff.

But Alice was again faster.

Alice was always a step ahead. To an unnatural degree.

She grabbed H.T. Trismegistus's wrist as he tried to attack her from the side. She turned him into a weapon, equipped that weapon, and swung it artlessly to the side.

A direct hit.

A dull impact rang loud.

In this case, taking Anna's side had been a
mistake.

Or maybe he had been thwarted by Alice's
tailwind.

That magic stole power from external sources. If H.T. Trismegistus had remained no more than one of Alice's toys, he couldn't have provided more power on top of her own.

The little villain struggled to breathe and a red clump splattered from the corner of her mouth.

The equilibrium was broken.

Despite dropping her golden cross staff, Anna clenched her teeth and stepped forward.

Another impact sounded.
He wouldn’t let anyone say the defeated people’s feelings had been any weaker than anyone else’s.

If Alice could “grab” any object, phenomenon, or person and make it her weapon, then he was supported by the strength of the feelings that had led him to this point.

7. Homing Attack: Alice can pinpoint the exact location of her target, making her attack a guaranteed hit.
Kamijou thought that came from something other than her intense emotion.

Then Alice made her next move.

Smelling

She sniffed out her target's precise location

Which meant her next move was guaranteed to hit, no matter how poorly aimed it was.

Once again, Alice swung H.T. Trismegistus
around with a single hand and struck Anna's little body with her boosted attack. The force of the blow caused the gloomy young butler to slip from Alice's grasp. No, his right wrist shattered like pottery. Only his hand remained in the grown woman's hand.

This wasn't like a home run in baseball or a strike in bowling

The two of them were knocked away with a
strange sound.

Neither one cried out.

Kamijou didn't even want to think about how much damage that had done to Anna.

8. Regeneration (Mid) & Immortality (Type 2, 3 & 4): She can heal herself and bring herself back to life just by willing it. The novel reiterates that death is essentially meaningless to her:
Don't you get it? They're still here fighting alongside me."

"Then the girl will heal herself."

That was all Alice said.

She was so powerful she had never had a chance to experience defeat and so didn't worry too much about who won an individual battle. She didn't fear the possibility of being beaten and dying.

If she did ultimately bury the enemy who stood in her way, it was no skin off her nose if she died once or twice first.

Because...

'Have you forgotten, teacher? The girl already had her head crushed by someone calling himself Rosencreutz. And yet here she is as good as new. So it doesn't matter to the girl even if you do manage to kill her in exchange for severe damage on your part. The girl just has to resurrect herself a billion or even a trillion times if necessary and wait for you to finally wear yourself out"
If his arm was torn off, that thing would emerge.

He had proven that when he severed the arm himself to summon it against Rosencreutz

That would work if he was only interested in defeating her.

That thing may have been the only remaining mystery in this world that rivaled Alice.

But Kamijou had made a decision back then.

He had made up his mind.

He would never use that thing again. Never
against another person. Plus, a little thing like death wouldn't be enough to stop Alice!!

He took the full brunt of the attack as payment

9. Fate Manipulation/Probability Manipulation: She can seemingly protect those "on her side" by passively protecting them from taking any damage and ensuring their attacks always hit, even when they purposely try to miss:
"You didn’t find it remotely odd? We’re all regular Transcendents here. A clash between our two groups shouldn’t end so easily. Yet you’re being easily defeated in a one-sided game. Is it a bad matchup between the individual Transcendents? Do our spells combine so well it’s like we were dealt a royal flush? No, that could never happen.”

“…”

“No one can defeat Alice Anotherbible.”

For this alone, she took on a respectful tone.

Almost like she was reading off the handwritten creed only she believed in.

Blodeuwedd the Bouquet thought only of her own blessings as she spoke euphorically.

“You underestimated the meaning of that statement. And that optimism has brought you certain death. It doesn’t just mean you won’t survive a direct physical fight against Alice. There’s no getting around it. We control all of the coincidences and all of our baseless hunches and inspirations will work out in our favor. We have the trends of the world on our side. That is what it means to ‘resonate’ with Alice and take the winning side. To be clear, we are only firing blindly from the hip. You’re the ones ensuring we hit you.”

Vidhatri.

2nd Saga.

And Blodeuwedd the Bouquet.

The Bologna Succubus’s side was being worn down, but all three of them were unharmed. She had gotten a few clean hits in on them, so had they managed to shrug off the damage?

And she was slipping past their expectations and landing an attack they failed to dodge or defend against, so it made no sense for them to be changing their stance to reduce the damage with 100% accuracy.

That wasn’t their individual abilities.

It was their “resonance” with Alice Anotherbible.

“Defying her means death. You had lost from the moment you bet on there being an exception to that, like that you could move beyond her reach, hide where she couldn’t find you, or escape punishment if your defiance was indirect. Not that she would let you get away with this even if you had been correct.”

“How are you on Alice’s side when you only love yourself?”

10. Regeneration Negation: It is reiterated multiple times that once Alice kills someone, there is no coming back. Not even Good Old Mary's resurrection can heal/bring back someone killed by Alice.
What about Alice? Can you-”

He left the question unfinished, realizing too late that it was a meaningless question.

She silently shook her head.

Her big hat wobbled sadly.

Not even Good, Old Mary could save Anna from the Shrink Drink’s effects. Because a mere Transcendent could not resist even a fragment of Alice Anotherbible’s power.
That primitive attack had been amplified to the extreme.

“If you die, it’s over. I know it’s obvious, but you can’t forget that absolute rule!! Good, Old Mary’s resurrection does not work against fatal wounds caused by Alice herself. If you really want to save her, then you can’t expect the world to do you any favors. You can only reach out your own hand to help her!!”

11. Durability Negation (Internal Damage): By simply flicking her finger, she can cause her opponent's heart to burst, and fling them far way in the process.
Aradia didn’t even have time to gasp in shock.

Alice really didn’t look her way the entire time. She simply changed the arrangement of her casually extended fingers. She curled up her middle finger and held it down with her thumb like she was preparing to flick something.

There was no light or sound.

It was a lot like returning the favor.

Aradia broke through the wall and flew off somewhere.

Kamijou’s face paled.

That had definitely hit.

Flicking.

What even was that?

What meaning had been extracted from that simple action anyone was capable of?

Warning bells rang loud in Kamijou’s mind.

If you died, it was over.

Death really and truly meant goodbye.

Because Alice’s attacks were the one thing not even Good, Old Mary’s resurrection could cure.

“Aradiaaa!!”

“Don’t worry, fool. It looks like the two of them distributed the damage between them. But that would have caused her heart to burst if there hadn’t been two identical Aradias here.”

12. Paralysis Inducement: By simply tapping her foot, Alice can freeze anyone in place.
On the floor above, Alice ignored their conversation and moved.

She tapped her heel down.

Creating a vibration.

It didn’t matter that they were on separate floors.

Kamijou and the others went stiff. They were pinned in place.

Stomping.

It was a juvenile act of resistance and intimidation. A challenge and attempted reversal against someone who was clearly your superior. It was a threat meant to overpower adult logic with childish instinct and a primitive gamble that all humans attempted at some point.

It worked.

The adult Alice jumped down in the single second the world was frozen.

She aimed to land on Kamijou. On the top of his head.

A dull sound followed.

Alice again knocked something sharply to the ground.

That broke the spell and Kamijou quickly leaped toward Anna and rolled along the floor.

13. Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation: Alice sentenced Touma to death, simply by suggesting it.
If Alice said it would happen, then it was guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on.

Now was still an available option.

Alice’s prophecy was not over yet. The predetermined outcome was still coming.

“…”

Then there was nothing more he could do.

Struggle all he wanted, he couldn’t recover from taking the wrong turn so long ago.

Kamijou Touma’s life had been over from the day he first met Alice.

Their difference in power was just that great.

Of course, Alice hadn’t intended to harm him.

He had chosen it himself. She had warned him not to, but he hadn’t believed in the absoluteness of her prophecy, he hadn’t given much thought at all to his own life, and he had simply assumed everything would work out the way it always did. Even though things were different this time. If he had known then how extraordinary Alice was, he never would have seen it that way.

But a choice was a choice.

He had already used up his one and only ticket.

He had walked through the crossroads, so there was no way left to avoid his predetermined death.
Did you think that statement didn’t mean much?

It meant more than anything.

Alice Anotherbible’s power is absolute. That does not apply only to direct violence.

14. Energy Projection: Alice can produce invisible claws that tear through space itself by swiping her hand in whatever direction she wishes:
Alice was already doing something.

Whatever this was, that irregular Transcendent had chosen to use her own body to act.

And she chose to attack.

“Fool!!”

Little Anna kicked him in the back of the knee from the side.

As soon as his view dropped straight down, something tore diagonally upwards through the air.

All sound vanished.

Five clawmarks were torn diagonally through the library wall directly behind Kamijou. Same for the many bookcases in between. Only after the fact did he realize the same would have happened to him if his head hadn’t lowered by a few dozen centimeters.

Claws.

Scratches.

That primitive attack had been amplified to the extreme.
In a merciless head-on assault, Alice’s fist compressed the air and tore through the existing faculty room while the path of her five claws sliced through the entire building and space itself.

Dodging was meaningless against this.

If she made a single roundhouse kick, it would probably become an AoE attack that struck everything around her. When her attack was like a massive gale sweeping right to left, there was no way to avoid it just by moving your body out of the way.

15. Sound Manipulation: Alice can produce a concentrated shockwave of sound whenever she roars:
The animal roared loud.

“Oooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!”

Was that magic?

It was an apocalyptic roar.

A great energy grounded in something other than intelligence and reason spiraled out. The roar reflected off the walls and floor before gathering unnaturally on a single point in space.

Anna swept her little hand from left to right.

That was all it took for a thick shockwave to bend like a bow and knock over a few bookcases.

16. Creation: Alice can create as many regular Transcendents as she wants.

17. Cloth Manipulation: All Transcendents can create clothing.

18. Automatic Translation: All Transcendents have the ability to automatically translate language.

Additional Abilities:
"If Alice wanted, she could have changed the world you see before you in any way she liked,” said War God Othinus from his shoulder. “The consulate in District 12 is a good example of that.”

“I thought the other Transcendents made that.”

“You need to assume Alice can do anything the regular Transcendents can. In fact, her version is probably the original.”

“What do you mean by that?”

“Did you really think the Bridge Builders Cabal members created that divine cosplay spell all on their own without any hints to work off of? Remember, these are the people who abandoned their magic names and relied on someone else because they knew they could never achieve their goals themselves. …You can think of the regular Transcendents as custom products created by taking the open-source Alice Anotherbible and tweaking the details to fit their preferences. Where Alice came from, I couldn’t tell you.”

Othinus spoke harshly, but she was that way about everyone on Earth.

In fact…

“Hm? I don’t sense much scorn in your voice there, god.”

“Because I have no real reason to feel scornful,” readily replied the real god.

This wasn’t about what was correct. They simply used different methods. She spoke like a living national treasure of a dancer appreciating the younger people in a phone video who were simply enjoying moving their bodies.

Apparently that was analogous to the one-eyed girl who had gathered faith and polished her skills until she became known as a god and the Transcendents who had chosen various gods and dressed up as them.
From the quote above, Alice is stated to be the originator of All of the Transcendents' abilities, and has a stronger version of each of their abilities, which include:

1. Possible Existence Erasure via Fate Manipulation: Vidhatri's ability to erase people's existence by ommiting all mentions of them:
Like it had been nightmarishly spirited away.

“You must understand.”

With the sounds of springs operating, the ball-joint doll Dhatri’s arms split and lots of pulleys and latches emerged. It formed a loom.

Extremely thin pieces of white and black danced about.

They were threads.

No, was some of that her own black hair?

“Vidhatri controls fate and Dhatri creates all things. Those two goddesses determine all that happens through the weaving of the white and black. Good, Old Mary, you may be able to create anything with your alchemy, but I decide how many different options are included in that ‘anything’.”

“I see.”

“I am Vidhatri. When paired with my partner goddess, I control fate and creation. I am the Transcendent who classifies the world based on my preferences and saves all of those that meet my preferences.”

The threads of fate were woven together to create the warp and the weft of the world.

Was this what it meant to confront someone who had control over all things?

“You are the same as mama. You contain a portion of the mystical power you borrowed from Alice, but you have failed to make full use of it. You are no more than an imperfect performer.”

“Say what you like. In this field, Good, Old Mary, I can easily erase your very existence. I must only intentionally omit all mention of you.”

Good, Old Mary didn’t even have time to hear her out.

With the breakwater gone, the fish crashed into the bridge like a silver wave.

2. Possible Mind Manipulation: Blodeuwedd's ability to control all living beings
That they were on a bridge over a large river wasn’t enough to explain it.

This noise was unusual.

The dark water of the January night was stirring with no connection to the water or wind current.

Stirring violently.

“I am loved by all living things. And not just people – birds, land animals, bugs, and fish too.”

Something crashed into the large bridge. They were the black bass, bluegills, and other troublemakers of the river environment. They were small and common creatures with nothing divine about them, but tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands had gathered to form a giant wave.

These lives were so easily manipulated.

Red and silver.

They had enough force and mass to possibly break a bridge weighing more than ten thousand tons.

“What do you think of my Total Courtship?☆”

Using cries, pheromones, dances, and colors, she could seduce any living creature, including humans. Simply put, she was a courtship expert.

Was she already drunk on victory?

Euphoric, Blodeuwedd the Bouquet raised her voice.

“Ha ha☆ Love them, demon of the night. Love every last one of them. But there are plenty of environmentally destructive species that are hated just because there are too many of them!!!”

3. Possible Pocket Reality Manipulation: Good Old Mary's ability to isolate space-time, creating a pocket reality using her Tribikos
A quake-like vibration disturbed the dark river.

Blodeuwedd the Bouquet could make a weapon out of the vast city full of pests and vermin, but she wasn’t the only one responsible.

As the fish rushed in as a great wave threatening to swallow up the bridge from the side, they were stopped by a three-legged object the size of a stadium.

“Tribikos,” whispered Good, Old Mary, manager of experimental tools.

She was facing Vidhatri, Indian goddess of fate. Their eyes happened to meet and she took a breath as their piece of time and space was cut away from the confused battlefield. At times, rhythm and timing meant everything in a chaotic battle. Good, Old Mary was bound by Vidhatri in the same way.

Their clash was inevitable now.

Good, Old Mary addressed the perfectly-proportioned model wearing a red sari.

“Vidhatri, mama is serious. Mama will crush you. So what will you do?”

“Are you sure you want me to take this seriously?”

4. Possible Curse Manipulation: 2nd Saga's ability to create a curse that ensures death, and will follow its victim to the end of the world.
“2nd Saga!! Eliminate her now!”

“Hee hee.”

An alluring female face and limbs appeared in the dark night. She was around 18, at the midpoint between girlhood and womanhood.

But that was all that was visible.

The pieces floated separately. No, her torso had clearly been torn apart. It now contained strange hollow spaces. Had her human silhouette unraveled like bandages? Was it due to the thick ribbon that had been wrapped around her torso? The lights of the city were visible in the space beyond her partially eliminated body.

The space seemed somewhat distorted.

Or maybe it was a type of camouflage.

Aradia faced this person who was strange even for a Transcendent. She had the face of a girl with short flaxen hair with the interior dyed bright blue.

“2nd Saga. Do you derive some special meaning from covering and hiding things?”

“I’ve always had trouble choosing just one thing. I never want to throw anything out, so my room always ends up a mess.”

Saga was a goddess from Norse mythology.

She was said to be extremely powerful and to manage the spring where Odin is gifted with poetry and wisdom.

But she is barely mentioned throughout all the Norse monuments and texts.

Barely anything is known about her other than that her home is called Sokkvabekkr.

Information on her was scarce.

She was a mysterious figure who is simply known to share drinks with the top Norse god.

This woman had gone out of here way to choose a god like that.

She had wanted to be her.

Aradia spat annoyed words with the yellow and black railroad crossing barrier in hand.

“If a single performer tries to forcibly dress up as multiple gods, the traits of the gods cancel each other out, diluting their presence. We normally have strict rules about what we can’t do if we want to stay in character and keep our costume authentic, but I didn’t expect one of us to take advantage of that fact.”

“By intentionally keeping a low profile, I can do things other gods can’t. I am not the star of the show. But if a tree or a bush does something they shouldn’t, the audience has no way of knowing if it was correct or not. This allows me to be a performer on the stage while also freeing me from the bonds of the script. I am the only one allowed to be myself.”

“…”

“I am the Transcendent who saves all the bit parts and understudies who never get any attention. I can’t look down on them if I’m to do that. I need to understand how they feel and be one of them first.”

She disappeared.

Did she unleash her skill to the point she became one with the air?

The bluish-white armor partially surrounding 2nd Saga’s limbs vanished into the air, causing what little of her skin and face were still visible to look unnaturally alluring.

The bright round skin of her face was like a device for giving off sex appeal.

The pupils of her blue eyes were colored an impossible bright red. Did she use a light-bending technique to pull that one off?

Even with her full body unraveled, the individual pieces were made of captivating feminine skin.

But if a member of the opposite sex were caught by her like this, it would probably break his mind.

The strange avant-garde woman sneered.

“My name is 2nd Saga, a fictional god created on the mischievous whim of the compiler. Which allows me to add on any magic I wish which is never actually found in Norse mythology. …Now, it is time you lost your one and only life. The divine curse – that is, the light of Brisingamen, necklace of infidelity – can even trigger a war between world-destroying kings. Do not assume an individual can escape that deadly fate!!”

It started at the center, where her chest had been.

The thick ribbon, which bound her skin and showed the city behind her, created a transparent distortion much like sugar water, which spilled beyond her outlines.

It forcibly gathered Aradia’s focus on a single point, much like having a finger jabbed between the eyes at close range.

Aradia sensed a definite deadliness in this unknown phenomenon.

Was she mistaken, or had that been the true trigger?

The impossible distortion became a large artillery shell that tore through the air.

This was an assassination spell.

It was guaranteed to take a life.

And the user could sidestep their own sin by saying they were only adoring the beautiful gold and jewels. The necklace brought doom, but it allowed the user to claim they didn’t know it was cursed and thought it was only a beautiful piece of jewelry. Was that to insure they would not be hit in the unlikely case that the curse was sent back the way it had come?

Aradia snorted with laughter.

The rails were laid out nicely, but it was all nonsense with no actual mythological basis. The sky is heaven, the gods shine bright, the workings of salvation and divine punishment, cats are capricious and dogs are loyal – by combining the common symbols found across cultures, anyone could fake apparent legitimacy.

Yes, this was faked.

Her cosplay was sloppy. Gods were meant to draw a strict line between right and wrong, so they couldn’t accept – much less use – a loophole like this. A real god did not choose their words carefully for fear of backlash or controversy. Even the cruelest act could be written off as “divine punishment” if it was truly necessary.

And even if this curse would pursue Aradia to the ends of the Earth, there was only one thing she had to do.

5. Possible Creation & Death Manipulation: Good Old Mary pocket reality can produce anything in the world, including non-existent forms of death.
The towering monster looked like a stadium-sized container supported by a trio of pylon-sized legs.

That was the Tribikos.

Good, Old Mary’s experimental tool was said to contain an entire universe inside and thus carried the possibility of producing anything. That ultimate container could produce nonexistent forms of death and destruction as simple playthings.

“Hm.”

Christian Rosencreutz mimed loosely holding something like a brandy glass.

But his hand remained empty.

“The paternal cross and the maternal flower are a little too convenient, so people have a tendency to rely too much on the red secret art and cease to work at coming up with their own plans.”

His corpse had remained unchanged for 120 years. He had created a perfect miniature world where he could reach any answer by recreating the past, present, and future. That sage among sages had produced the secret art that could heal the entire world.

Which meant he was exceedingly similar to this experimental tool that had mastered the art of kitchen alchemy. The only real difference was that Good, Old Mary kept the miracle sealed inside like it was Pandora’s box while CRC let it out in his strong desire to interfere with the larger world. Alternatively, this would mean Good, Old Mary’s Tribikos was so powerful that she feared what would happen if the red secret art were released from it.

“One rule applies to the entire world,” whispered Good, Old Mary. “When one person attacks, another takes revenge. This rule applies even to that which slumbers in the secret territories. Be destroyed by the divine punishment triggered by your own decision as per the law of action and reaction, CRC.”

Equipment Abilities:
The following are abilities demonstrated by her familiars, referred to as the Alice Series, some of who passively defend/attack for her. These are to be added as a separate tab under her abilities:
1. Pink Flamingo Cricket Bat:
--Passive Instinctive Action: The flamingo bat automatically deflects all attacks against her, so that she doesn't have to act herself.
The high-voltage current pierced right through those glass doors and plastic bottles. It was on a collision course.

“Ugh!?”

He groaned and felt a pain in his heart, but he belatedly realized nothing had happened to him.

Something was dancing through the cramped space. It was floating in the air as if to protect Alice who he held under his arm, but what was it? A weapon? An oar? It was a long flat panel painted pink.

“A cricket bat,” muttered Youen in a puzzled voice. “Were you hiding that under your apron?”

A second and third blast of electricity flew their way, but the bat(?) soared this way and that to block them with sparks flying. Every time, pink feathers scattered from the bat and it squawked like a bird. At times, the oar-shaped bat’s outlines started to distort.

Kamijou had not seen it emerge, but if Youen was to be believed…
Kamijou’s group weren’t the only ones shocked.

(What is that? A flamingo bat? That animal ears girl must be some kind of weirdo to choose a non-baseball bat in this country.)

The sniper wore a cowboy hat and a red China dress. You couldn’t find that kind of clothing at an ordinary store, so she must have stolen it back from the confiscated items being transported along with her in the Overhunting. She gulped at what she assumed that picture book dress girl must have done. A pink oar-like object had floated into the air and blocked the ricocheted bullet.
Fearsome electricity surged in every direction.

It radiated out from a central figure.

Finding some kind of shield wasn’t enough this time. Thick reinforced concrete broke like styrofoam and the row of metal lockers exploded. The vortex of destruction was so great it was a miracle the entire station and adjoining buildings didn’t collapse.

Imagine Breaker would not negate this

If not for the long pink cricket bat that popped out from below Alice’s apron and flew around her, Kamijou would have been hit and killed by the lightning. In fact, the bat wasn’t alone this time. Several balls dropped down from below her apron and then sharp needles shot out in every direction.

The effect was unclear. Or rather, he didn’t have time to watch what they did.

He was too busy escaping the locker room even if he had to roll along the ground.

2. The Executioner:
--Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation: Is able to kill by cutting the threads of life and destiny, killing the target instantly.
--Non-Phyisical Interaction: For affecting an incorporeal ghost.
A few solid impacts rang out.

They came from Frillsand #G, not Alice. Her neck kept bending unnaturally to the right or the left. At times, it bent more than 90 degrees.

The shadow extending from young Alice’s little feet had grown unnaturally long.

It slid out past Frillsand #G and a strange silhouette stood up from it. The emaciated and bony silhouette was far creepier than the flamingo or hedgehogs. But instead of white bones, these were clear as crystal.

It held a one-sided axe with a sharp sword blade extending from the butt end of the staff.

This was the horrifying side of fairy tales – the polar opposite of the candy and the stuffed animals.

(What is that?)

Kamijou had no advance knowledge and no one gave him the answer, but when he saw the bony creature wrapped in a tattered black cloak, he was strangely certain of the answer. Like the answer had been inserted into his mind.

(An executioner?)

The ominous silhouette seemed puzzled by its failure to lop off its target’s head in a single attack.

Its skull-like head tilted disconcertingly far while it spun the shaft around in its hand. It switched to the sword blade and sliced sharply at the air. Whenever it spun the shaft like a baton and aimed the point at its target, the artificial ghost’s head was mysteriously knocked aside, causing it to bend directly sideways.

Kamijou honestly couldn’t even see the axe, the sword, or even the blur of the blades in motion.

Most likely, the conditions it used to cut had nothing to do with that motion.

Maybe it was the arrangement of the fingers gripping the weapon, maybe it automatically sliced at the weak points the target reflexively tried to protect, and maybe the baton-like weapon was a spool for the threads of life and destiny and it would cut those threads, killing you instantly, if you failed to defeat it before it spun a certain number of times.

Frillsand #G was only still intact because she was an artificial ghost, but Kamijou was willing to bet he would have been decapitated before he could even try to react. He couldn’t even guess when he would need to use his right fist.

“Oops.” Alice noticed something and quickly pressed her small foot against the ground and rubbed forward with the sole. “Teacher would be mad if the girl actually killed you. Come on back, Executioner. You can’t cut the Cheshire Cat who vanishes into thin air.”
Wasn’t that the Executioner that took people’s heads off on the Queen of Heart’s command?

The distance between them was little comfort. That thing did not use its physical strength to decapitate. It took the heads off with an attack more like an invisible curse.

3. Dinah, Alice's cat:
--Large Size (type 2): The strongest of Alice's familiars, Dinah is described as being as large as a Kaiju.
The gym noisily split apart from within. An enormous fluffy cat emerged. It gave a displeased growl and glared at Kamijou with open hostility. It was shaped like an adorably round pet, but it was the size of a kaiju. Kamijou felt something other than fear crawling along his spine. His pride and dignity as a person were gone if he was slowly tormented to death by that thing’s kitty punches.

Humor felt horribly out of place when combine with death.

This one was different. It was clearly far more powerful than the others.

Kamijou gulped.

“What is that? The cat in Alice is, um…what was it again?”

“Do not become the kind of person who needs his phone to know anything.” Othinus sounded exasperated. “That’s probably Dinah, Alice’s pet cat. Butterflies and birds talk like normal in Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, but Dinah is the one being who is nearly invincible and unbeatable. She only appears in the parts of the story that take place in the real world, but she possesses such deadly power that the other characters tremble in fear and run away at the mere mention of her name.”

This was another opinion.

It was a very real thing Alice thought.

4. Gryphon:
--Large Size (type 1): Described as truck-sized.
As soon as the great wings spread wide, the trauma surfaced from the depths of Kamijou’s mind. Reflexively holding his hands up to guard himself was an obvious mistake. By flapping his wings and converting the power of the air into forward momentum, the truck-sized Gryphon charged straight toward him.

Kamijou heard a deafening roar.

5. Hedgehogs:
--Weapon Creation: They explode, and form long swords made of countless spines.
The flamingo bat wasn’t alone. Several hedgehogs much larger than real ones were bouncing around near Kamijou’s feet. Shortly after he noticed them, they exploded. More accurately, they formed long swords made of countless spines and they struck. They all rushed in to attack the emaciated multi-armed doll that had appeared. The enemy was made of bones. It was a full skeleton made of a transparent crystal-like material.
--Small Size (type 1)



Resistances:
1. Resistance to Time Stop: (Is stated to have total control over time, and is able to move and act freely within stopped time.)

2. Immunity to Internal Damage: (Is stated to be immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far. The novel states that this is due to her being built differently, and the conditions for internal damage not applying to her.)
With that, Shirai started to stand from the bench.

That was when it happened.

“…is…still…”

Kamijou Touma’s view dropped straight down. No, all his strength had drained from him and he fell to his knees.

“Kah…”

He didn’t even have time to shout.

An unpleasant sound came from within his body. He thought he maybe had a nosebleed, but the stickiness he felt while blinking told him there was blood below his eyelids.

He saw a doll-like blue dress and long blonde twintails blowing in a way unrelated to the night breeze. She was right there in front of him, but she looked less real than a mirage.

(Frillsand #G!? Why does she have to show up now!?)

She hadn’t laid a finger on him.

She had not shot a horrific beam of light through his chest and she hadn’t caused a massive explosion.

She had simply appeared before him.

That was enough for a wet and sticky sensation to flow from his eye and ears. After falling to his knees, he was helpless to do anything but slowly collapse forward.

He was experiencing unexplained bleeding, a headache, chills, and a fever.

Death was approaching little by little – step by step.

“What? Bh…ah!!!???”

(Damn…it. I can’t even raise my right hand. This attack…makes no sense. Agh, what am I even supposed to punch with Imagine Breaker!?)

“…still…inside…”

This was absurdly dangerous.

That monotone female voice was simply too dangerous.

His vision was tilted on its side and growing red starting from one side, but he managed to see Shirai Kuroko collapsing from the bench to the ground. His brain was hallucinating cracking and straining noises. The confusion of all his senses was worse than any pain and it felt like having an invisible hand squeezing him in its grasp.

This was Frillsand #G the artificial ghost.

Unlike in Alice’s world, she did not just launch powerful electricity and use her scientific nature to resist Imagine Breaker.

This was not a visible, physical threat like that. He didn’t understand any of it, but was she a much more dangerous being who would kill you if you carelessly looked in her direction when she spoke to you!?

At the same time…

“Yawwwn?”

He heard an odd voice.

It was cheerful, carefree, and cutely sweet. Apparently she had trouble staying up late in the real world too. She was nodding off in the middle of the crisis playing out around her.

Alice Anotherbible looked like she had stepped out of a picture book and she alone remained standing. After holding a small hand to her mouth and yawning, she placed her index finger on her chin and tilted her head to ask a question.

Yes.

The fundamental question of why was everyone around her collapsing?

“Ri…still…inside…”

“That won’t work on the girl,” interrupted Alice with a sleepily clueless smile.

This time, no cricket bat or hedgehog balls emerged from below her apron. This was a formless curse, after all. But Alice was still entirely unaffected by the invisible attack.

Was she built differently from the others on the inside?

Was this like how carbon monoxide was deadly to humans but harmless to insects because their blood was different? This didn’t seem like she simply didn’t feel any pain because she was that much stronger than the average person. It was a lot more like the conditions of the attack didn’t apply to her in the first place. Kamijou even had a meaningless fantasy about someone continually giving animal carcasses to a vulture in the hopes of giving it food poisoning.

Which was more unnatural here: Frillsand #G for causing fatal wounds without laying a finger on anyone or Alice for being exposed to that and smiling like it was nothing?

“A ghost can’t match the girl’s level of mystery☆”
Also, her body was immune to bacteria, bugs, curses, and all other forms of internal damage, both scientific and magical. As for external damage, she would always remain unscathed thanks to the hedgehogs and flamingo protecting her. Moreover, this didn’t come from a fear of shedding blood. She protected herself that way because if anything obstructed her actions, she might get angry and kill someone.

3. Resistance to Mind Manipulation with Madness Manipulation: (Trying to read and control Alice's mind leaves those who attempt to do so trapped in a psychedelic world.)
In Shibuya, the Bologna Succubus had said he was the only person capable of controlling Alice, but was that really true?

“I wouldn’t do that if I were you.”

That line stuck with him.

The gloomy young butler’s words would not leave Kamijou’s mind.

Strangely, he had trouble remembering who the young man had been speaking to.

Alice herself had looked confused. He was pretty sure she had spread her arms to welcome them.

However…

“Peeking inside this girl’s mind will only trap you in a psychedelic world. Alice’s world is like a bottomless pit that can bring only tragedy to those who experience it.”

If the young butler hadn’t casually grabbed Alice’s collar and stopped her, she might have run over to Kamijou.

--Resistance to Transcendents' abilities:
4. Fate Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Vidhatri's ability to control the fate of the world)

5. Existence Erasure: (Cannot be erased by Vidhatri, who can erase people's existence by ommiting mentions of them.)

6. *Mind Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Blodeuwedd's ability to control all living beings.)

7. Curse Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by 2nd Saga's curse manipulation)

8. Death Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Good Old Mary and Frillsand's death manipulation)



Consequent Changes:
--Range: At least High Complex Multiversal (Live Adventures in Wonderland affects the whole world)

--Stamina: Superhuman (Should at least be as high as Kamijou Touma. She said was going to keep reviving herself if she got killed, until he got exhausted.)

Minor Changes:
--Minor Addition to her Intelligence: She is capable of uncovering the true nature of people and things, no matter how deeply they try to hide it.

Weaknesses:
1. She needs to physically move to take an action, and can't use her abilities with just a thought, expect for those that are passive.
"But Alice Anotherbible has had her
baseline purity forcibly increased, so each
and every one of her actions is pure without going through that process.'

"We should consider ourselves fortunate,
said H.T. Trismegistus

That was the gloomy young butler's
assessment.

Because..

"We are in fact incredibly fortunate that
Alice cannot kill her enemies with a thought or set the world in motion to kill her enemies if she wills it. This tells us she must take a physical action to trigger her attacks

Common sense says we are lucky indeed."

But that also meant this wasn't limited to
her scratching claws

2. She can only use one of her "miracles" (i.e. Walking, Crawling, etc) at a time, and not multiple at the same time.
Alice could extract miracles much like the
Pneuma-less Shell but without relying on any tools.

That knowledge came from Anna Sprengel

However.

"So why don't you just keep on 'crawling' while you attack? Then you could remain untouchable the entire time you send your unfair attacks our way."

"Since you aren't doing that, I can only assume you're limited to using one miracle at a time. For example, your 'crawling' causes any attacks to pass right through you, but it also keeps you from laying a finger on us, so you can never actually end the fight that way, can you? Your 'walking" and 'cursing' are the same. Your miracles are isolated things - they can't be combined or used in parallel!. Which means l've found your weakness, Alice Anotherbible. I don't know how tough you are, but you can't make yourself untouchable while you attack. The damage will reach you then!!"
 
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Votes:

Proposed Tier & AP:

Agree: @Axscell ,@FantaRin_The_First , @Piamma , @Aseka , @StrangerALover , @GunTish , @KingTempest , @Accelerate420
Disagree:
Neutral:



High 1-B Proposal:
Agree: @Piamma , @StrangerALover
Disagree: @Everything12 , @XDragnoir , @GunTish , @KingTempest , @Zensum , @Accelerate420 , @Felience1
Neutral: @Axscell , @FantaRin_The_First , @Aseka



Speed Rating Proposal:
Agree: @Axscell , @FantaRin_The_First , @Piamma , @Aseka , @StrangerALover , @GunTish , @KingTempest , @Felience1
Disagree:
Neutral:

Infinite Speed:
Agree: @Aseka , @Felience1
Disagree: @Accelerate420
Neutral: @Axscell , @XDragnoir , @FantaRin_The_First

Regeneration Negation:
Agree with regeneration negation:
Agree with resurrection negation: @Axscell , @XDragnoir , @Aseka , @Felience1
Disagree with both: @Accelerate420

Internal Damage Immunity:
Agree with blanket term "immunity to internal damage":
Agree with listing down all immunities as possibly: @Axscell , @XDragnoir , @Qawsedf234 , @Aseka , @Accelerate420 , @Felience1
Disagree with immunity to internal damage:
 
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I been mostly apart of the talks in the ToAru Thread, so I mostly agree with everything proposed.

Count me neutral for the High 1-Bs, however. Way out of my depth in topics regarding that, basically.
 
The existence of the Copenhagen Interpretation within the verse heavily implies the existence of John von Neumann, and his theory of Hilbert Space.
First off, you not only trying to use the existence of real life physicist in a verse to prove it follows a specific cosmology structure, but you aren't even showing actual proof of his existence in the series and saying the existence of this other theory "heavily implies" they exist. Secondly, even if the physicists exists that wouldn't mean that all the scientific theories they proposed in real life are accurate to the cosmology of the series.

Thirdly, even if they existed and named dropped Hilbert Space unless they give an actual description of how it function in the series in question you can't just copy and paste a Wikipedia articles or whatever and say that it must work that way in the series, authors very often have their own takes of things like this if they apply at all and so we can't just take the real life definition as the truth.

And this goes into my last point, the dimensions in infinite Hilbert Space are not tier applicable. Though among the infinite dimensions mentioned in the theory their are the standard three dimensional coordinates, their is also the like of momentum and spin, "dimensions" that are even less applicable for Tier 1 then string theory's compacted dimensions. The dimensions in an Infinite Hilbert Space are not positional coordinates exclusively but all possible properties an object possess. Even then a Hilbert Space isn't inherently a physical space, it's used as a mathematical model; as a tool to take these possible proprieties and map them out to do mathematics with.
 
I completely disagree with H1B, other than that:

At least Speed of Light Attack Speed & Reactions (Reacted to, and Blitzed Trismegistus, whose sword slashes are stated to be light),
Those need a specific calc before getting a rating and being applied, mainly because that speed only applies to Tris' sword slashes, not his own reactions, afaik.

Massively Hypersonic Attack Speed and Reactions for the flamingo cricket bat (Blocked Frillsand's lightning),
Flamingo Bat should be subrel for blocking CRC's attacks, no?

From the quote above, Alice is stated to be the originator of All of the Transcendents' abilities, and has a stronger version of each of their abilities, which include:
While I don't disagree with giving her these abilities, they should be listed as a "possibly". As we saw with Grabbing and Mut Thebes' White Shadow (or whatever was the name of her spell) which were directly compared, how Alice does it in practice and what the Transcendents themselves do doesn't have to be even close to the same.

Immunity to Internal Damage: (Is stated to be immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far. The novel states that this is due to her being built differently, and the conditions for internal damage not applying to her.)
As for this, it was agreed we'd list all different forms of Internal Damage in the verse separately, instead of listing it as a single thing (as that leaves way too much info out) and similarly to the above, I think all those resistances would be better off if listed as a possibly.

Thanks, do you have an opinion on the other parts of the CRT? Mainly the resistances part.
 
I disagree with this. It's specifically because Mary uses Alice as her source of power, and thus cannot override something that Alice herself did. I don't think there are any evidence for Alice negating any other form of regen.

Touma's arm regenerated just fine after having it bitten off by the gryphon, for example.

Disagree with H1B. I'd just go for High 1-C, possibly higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland

Agree with everything else.
 
It's specifically because Mary uses Alice as her source of power, and thus cannot override something that Alice herself did.
I disagree:

If you died, it was over.

Death really and truly meant goodbye.

Because Alice’s attacks were the one thing not even Good, Old Mary’s resurrection could cure.
___

Not even Good, Old Mary’s resurrection can heal Anna Sprengel.” “We just have to get Alice’s help.”
___


These two quotes use "not even", which makes it clear that Good Mary's and other, lesser forms of healing/resurrection also wouldn't work, so you're probably thinking of this quote:

As a regular Transcendent, Good, Old Mary could not defeat an irregularity like Alice. That was plain as day from the fact that her resurrection had failed to save Anna from the Shrink Drink which had only contained a portion of Alice’s power.

They already had the proof.

The resurrection would not work on anyone killed by Alice.
___


But the above doesn't say at any moment that her ability to stop healing only applies to Mary's and absolutely no one else's, it only explains why Mary herself even while having such a good healing, couldn't "bypass" something done by Alice, which is why, as I was explaining above, it would make no sense to say "not even Good Old Mary can heal you from Alice" if what they meant was "anyone other than Mary would work".

As for Touma, that may very well have to do with the fact that the Gryphon doesn't carry this aspect of Alice's powers, we know the Shrink Drink have it because it was refined by the Transcendents to be like that.
 
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Those need a specific calc before getting a rating and being applied, mainly because that speed only applies to Tris' sword slashes, not his own reactions, afaik.
Is there a specific part that needs to be calced? Idk, his reactions scaling to his attack speed made sense to me because he was physically moving to attack at SoL speeds, rather than shooting a SoL projectile. If it was the latter, I could why his reactions wouldn't necessarily scale to his attack speed, but in this case, he is physically moving with precise control to attack at those speeds.

Flamingo Bat should be subrel for blocking CRC's attacks, no?
Yeah, true. Gonna fix it now.

While I don't disagree with giving her these abilities, they should be listed as a "possibly". As we saw with Grabbing and Mut Thebes' White Shadow (or whatever was the name of her spell) which were directly compared, how Alice does it in practice and what the Transcendents themselves do doesn't have to be even close to the same.
True. Fixed.

As for this, it was agreed we'd list all different forms of Internal Damage in the verse separately, instead of listing it as a single thing (as that leaves way too much info out)
I feel there's always going to be one missed, given the vast forms of internal damages that have been shown in the series. We can list them down in the discussion thread (or here even, whichever's better) before making changes to the profile, and adding them all to the profile later.

and similarly to the above, I think all those resistances would be better off if listed as a possibly.
Are you referring to her resistance to the other Transcendents' abilities, or to the forms of internal damage?
 
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Is there a specific part that needs to be calced? Idk, his reactions scaling to his attack speed made sense to me because he was physically moving to attack at SoL speeds, rather than shooting a SoL projectile. If it was the latter, I could why his reactions wouldn't necessarily scale to his attack speed, but in this case, he is physically moving with precise control to attack at those speeds.
I am pretty sure he was never regarded as being moving as fast as light and there's nothing implying he becomes as fast as whatever his sword is infused with.

Indeed, his slashes themselves were mostly straight lines from what I can remember, you don't need to be SoL to aim a straight thing perfectly, just take snipers as an example.

With that said, we would need an specific calc for Alice (or anyone else who fought Tris) dodging his light slashes to scale it to them.

I feel there's always going to be one missed, given the vast forms of internal damages that have been shown in the series.
That doesn't really matter, the best optionis to have them all listed in the profile and update it when we find other abilities that cause internal damage.


Are you referring to her resistance to the other Transcendents' abilities, or to the forms of internal damage?
I guess both, but mainly the forms of internal damage.
 
I am pretty sure he was never regarded as being moving as fast as light and there's nothing implying he becomes as fast as whatever his sword is infused with.

Indeed, his slashes themselves were mostly straight lines from what I can remember, you don't need to be SoL to aim a straight thing perfectly, just take snipers as an example.

With that said, we would need an specific calc for Alice (or anyone else who fought Tris) dodging his light slashes to scale it to them.
IMO... With the scans we currently have atm, I do think it is rather impossible atm to calc such a thing. Figured I should just say this.
 
IMO... With the scans we currently have atm, I do think it is rather impossible atm to calc such a thing. Figured I should just say this.
We've done calcs with just text before, such as Salome vs Mikoto, but if that's the case then there's nothing we can do other than give Tris a "SoL with light sword" or something like that.
 
Well speed calc for Tris aside, I think it's okay to place Alice's speed at At least SoL, since we have this statement from the battle between Alice, Anna and Tris, directly stating that she was always faster than both (which should include Tris' attacks)
But Alice was again faster.

Alice was always a step ahead. To an unnatural degree.


She grabbed H.T. Trismegistus’s wrist as he tried to attack her from the side. She turned him into a weapon, equipped that weapon, and swung it artlessly to the side.

A direct hit.

A dull impact rang loud.

As for listing down the forms of internal damage Alice is immune to, these are the ones I have so far:

These ones have been explicitly stated/demonstrated by the LN, and don't require a Possible:
1. Death Manipulation: (directly stated/demonstrated)
2. Curse Manipulation: (directly stated)
3. Bacteria: (directly stated)
4. Bugs: (directly stated)

These one's haven't been explicitly stated by the LN, and as such, should be added with a Possible:
3. Possible Immunity to Telefragging: (Teleporting espers ability to teleport foreign objects into the body)
4. Possible Immunity to Transmutation: (Kakine's ability)
5. Possible Immunity to Poison Manipulation: (Mathers' Belzébuth spell)

Feel free to add anything I might've missed.
 
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Well speed calc for Tris aside, I think it's okay to place Alice's speed at At least SoL, since we have this statement from the battle between Alice, Anna and Tris, directly stating that she was always faster than both (which should include Tris' attacks)
First, she was definitely faster, yet the other two could block, dodge or counter her attacks during their fight (mainly Anna, not sure about Tris) so that definitely doesn't support the massive gap there is between Sub rel and SoL.

Second, no, that statement has nothing to do with Tris' special attacks that, as discussed above, don't scale to his other speeds, using snipers as an example again, you don't need to be faster than their bullets to outspeed them.


These one's haven't been explicitly stated by the LN, and as such, should be added with a Possible:
3. Possible Immunity to Telefragging: (Teleporting espers ability to teleport foreign objects into the body)
4. Possible Immunity to Transmutation: (Kakine's ability)
5. Possible Immunity to Poison Manipulation: (Mathers' Belzébuth spell)
There's also Accel's Vector hax, which then leads to Blood and Bioelectricity, Anna's Life Force disruption, Amata's internal shockwaves, Etzali's deconstruction and the several forms of mental and spiritual attacks we have seen (Grimoires, the Pope's, Coronzon's snap and roar, etc).

There's also Curtana and the MGs' Phase Control... the former I'd say is in a strange spot because while it can be used as internal damage when spawning inside the target, it usually isn't used like that, meanwhile the MGs (Othinus specifically) have affected Alice with their Phase Hax, so it's not something Alice resists 100% of the time but it was specifically noted by the author to be something she could resist, so these 2 habe to be indexed in their own way although I don't know how yet.


Everything else is cool
Would any of you two have an idea how to solve the problem above?
 
I have some issues with a few things!
Tier Proposal:
At least 9B
Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, far higher with Grabbing, At least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland.

Reasoning:
--5B Physically, far higher with Grabbing: Alice was able to physically match and eventually overpower Anna Sprengel after she "grabbed" and used H. T. Trismegistus as a weapon. The far higher comes from the fact that she can use her 'Grabbing' miracle to wield anything and anyone as a weapon to increase her physical stats. This is how she was able to physically overpower Anna Sprengel.

--At least High 1-C, likely far higher: This one is quite straightforward. Alice is stated to manipulate the world on the same level as Othinus, who is also rated at High 1-C for manipulating an at least 11-D world. For this reason, Alice should get the same tier rating as Othinus. The likely far higher comes from the fact that Alice is stated to be able to essentially change the whole cosmology of the verse by making any theory a reality, but due not having direct statements of theories that go beyond High 1-C, it's difficult to give her any concrete rating that is higher than High 1-C.
If the highest scope comparison given to Live Adventures in Wonderland in the text is Othinus, who is High 1-C, and we're trying to factor in justification for what could be theoretically possible with the ability, then the tier should be something like: High 1-C, likely/possibly far higher.
I think Child Alice should be tiered higher than At least 9-B. She defeated Risk 4 Trismegistus, Good, Old Mary and destroyed the Tribikos at the same time.
I think we should name that form B Alice (Backside/Backstage) instead of Inner Alice because that's what Haimura refers to it as. Haimura calls the adult design in GT10, Alice Pleasance Liddell.
Durability Proposal:
At least 9B
Physically as Child Alice, At least 5B Physically as Inner Alice, likely far higher.
Should follow from her AP. She was also completely unharmed when fighting Anna Sprengel, Trismegistus, and several other Transcendents at the same time.
Her physical durability without magic isn't At least 5B since Touma can damage her with his fist.
High 1-B Proposal:
Disagree. This would probably fall under textbook NLF.
Speed Rating Proposal:
--Speed of Light attack and reaction speed: Alice could easily react to and blitz Trismegistus, whose sword slashes are stated to be actual light.

--Infinite movement speed: Alice can appear wherever she wills instantly, no matter the distance, and seemingly in no time. The moment she physically takes action to move, she's already arrived at her destination.
Disagree with Speed of Light attack and reaction speed. His attacks can be composed of light, but there's no indication Trismegistus or his slashes are light speed.
Quote 1: Alice is already using Crawling.
Quote 2: Alice attacks Anna before Trismegistus initiates an attack.
Quote 3: Alice w/ Gryphon is faster than Trismegistus' movements (her Tailwind is seemingly in effect again), also his slashes at this point have changed from light phenomena to something else.
The most I get from this is Alice is faster than Trismegistus' reaction/movement speed.

Disagree with Infinite movement speed. This is essentially just teleportation.
Abilities Addition:
The following are abilities that Alice has demonstrated, that are to be added to her profile:
10. Regeneration Negation: It is reiterated multiple times that once Alice kills someone, there is no coming back. Not even Good Old Mary's resurrection can heal/bring back someone killed by Alice.
13. Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation: Alice sentenced Touma to death, simply by suggesting it.
16. Creation: Alice can create as many regular Transcendents as she wants.
Disagree with Regeneration Negation. Good, Old Mary’s resurrection is the one and only method of revival here. All context surrounding permanent death is in relation to the resurrection recipe. Obviously, if Alice kills someone there's no coming back. Mary cannot revive anyone Alice kills because Alice supersedes her as a regular Transcendent. And as far as healing negation goes, other characters have healed or recovered from injuries inflicted by Alice like Kingsford, Mary and Trismegistus.

Disagree with Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation. I don't think Death Manipulation is accurate. She didn't kill him, she accurately predicted his death. She didn't just make up or suggest something offhandedly, this is a true prophecy produced by her theory bridging.

Disagree with Creation. This isn't saying Alice can create Transcdents on her own. It's saying Trismegistus and the Bridge Builders can produce new Transcendents as long as Alice exists as a model.
Equipment Abilities:
The following are abilities demonstrated by her familiars, referred to as the Alice Series, some of who passively defend/attack for her. These are to be added as a separate tab under her abilities:
2. The Executioner:
--Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation: Is able to kill by cutting the threads of life and destiny, killing the target instantly.
Disagree somewhat. I think we should add possible here since "cutting threads of life" is only proposed as a possible theory for how the The Executioner's decapitation curse works.
Resistances:
2. Immunity to Internal Damage: (Is stated to be immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far. The novel states that this is due to her being built differently, and the conditions for internal damage not applying to her.)
SPOILER: ALICE IMMUNE TO FRILLSAND'S DEATH MANIPULATION

--Resistance to Transcendents' abilities:
4. Fate Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Vidhatri's ability to control the fate of the world)
5. Existence Erasure: (Cannot be erased by Vidhatri, who can erase people's existence by ommiting mentions of them.)
6. *Mind Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Blodeuwedd's ability to control all living beings.)
7. Curse Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by 2nd Saga's curse manipulation)
8. Death Manipulation: (Cannot be affected by Good Old Mary and Frillsand's death manipulation)
Disagree with internal resistances that aren't in the text. I think it's a huge stretch to phrase this as "immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far" based on these quotes. And more dubious listing abilities unrelated to what's explicitly stated because they have an internal effect without having any idea what the mechanics are to this immunity beyond "she doesn't fit the requirements for this attack".
Are we sure Frillsand #G is categorized properly as Death Manipulation? IIRC her ability was the high energy phenomena that created stimuli too powerful for the human senses to handle.

Disagree with Resistance to Transcendents' abilities. The immunity comes from the regular Transcendent connection to Anotherbible. Alice is immune because she has precedence over the Alice series of magicians and not because she resists those individual abilities.
 
I have some issues with a few things!

If the highest scope comparison given to Live Adventures in Wonderland in the text is Othinus, who is High 1-C, and we're trying to factor in justification for what could be theoretically possible with the ability, then the tier should be something like: High 1-C, likely/possibly far higher.
I think Child Alice should be tiered higher than At least 9-B. She defeated Risk 4 Trismegistus, Good, Old Mary and destroyed the Tribikos at the same time.
I am fine with having her as 5B Physically, at least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland tbh. Don't think there was any difference in terms of physicals between Front and Backstage Alice IIRC.

I think we should name that form B Alice (Backside/Backstage) instead of Inner Alice because that's what Haimura refers to it as. Haimura calls the adult design in GT10, Alice Pleasance Liddell.
Yeah, I think that works better.

Her physical durability without magic isn't At least 5B since Touma can damage her with his fist.
He punched her sure, but there's no indication that that did/can do any damage to her at all. Touma himself confirmed so. His goal in that fight was to reach her and punch her, not damage her.

Disagree with Speed of Light attack and reaction speed. His attacks can be composed of light, but there's no indication Trismegistus or his slashes are light speed.
Quote 1: Alice is already using Crawling.
Quote 2: Alice attacks Anna before Trismegistus initiates an attack.
Quote 3: Alice w/ Gryphon is faster than Trismegistus' movements (her Tailwind is seemingly in effect again), also his slashes at this point have changed from light phenomena to something else.
The most I get from this is Alice is faster than Trismegistus' reaction/movement speed.
Guess we'll keep her speed at Sub-Rel then.

Disagree with Infinite movement speed. This is essentially just teleportation.
Possibly, but the fact that she physically moves to reach a destination points to it being infinite speed. The novel even points out that she's not using magic or any special move, her actions are just purified to such an extent that her moving to reach a certain destination means that she's already arrived there. That's infinite speed IMO. There's also the fact that she can't do it with a thought, and has to physically move, which points to it not being teleportation.

Disagree with Regeneration Negation. Good, Old Mary’s resurrection is the one and only method of revival here. All context surrounding permanent death is in relation to the resurrection recipe. Obviously, if Alice kills someone there's no coming back. Mary cannot revive anyone Alice kills because Alice supersedes her as a regular Transcendent. And as far as healing negation goes, other characters have healed or recovered from injuries inflicted by Alice like Kingsford, Mary and Trismegistus.
You have a point about the other Transcendents and Kingsford healing from injuries caused by her. I still think it should count as some kind of resurrection negation, especially with the novel repeatedly making a point of the finality of death caused by Alice.

Disagree with Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation. I don't think Death Manipulation is accurate. She didn't kill him, she accurately predicted his death. She didn't just make up or suggest something offhandedly, this is a true prophecy produced by her theory bridging.

I already addressed this in the discussion thread. It is a prophecy sure, but it only exists because she suggested it. The novel literally points out that if he hadn't met her, he would've been alright.
It didn’t really matter what.

It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.

It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone’s intuition was correct, it could always be wrong.

But that excuse didn’t exist here.

The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it did exist.

If Alice said it would happen, then it was guaranteed to happen.

Why had he let himself relax?

She had never said a single word about what hour, minute, second, or rotation of the Earth it would happen on.

Now was still an available option.

Alice’s prophecy was not over yet. The predetermined outcome was still coming.

“…”

Then there was nothing more he could do.

Struggle all he wanted, he couldn’t recover from taking the wrong turn so long ago.

Kamijou Touma’s life had been over from the day he first met Alice.

Their difference in power was just that great.

Of course, Alice hadn’t intended to harm him.

He had chosen it himself. She had warned him not to, but he hadn’t believed in the absoluteness of her prophecy, he hadn’t given much thought at all to his own life, and he had simply assumed everything would work out the way it always did. Even though things were different this time. If he had known then how extraordinary Alice was, he never would have seen it that way.

But a choice was a choice.

He had already used up his one and only ticket.

He had walked through the crossroads, so there was no way left to avoid his predetermined death.

Did you think that statement didn’t mean much?

It meant more than anything.

Alice Anotherbible’s power is absolute. That does not apply only to direct violence.
Plus the nature of his death wasn't exactly natural or of him succumbing to his injuries, lending more credence to the idea that she's the one who caused it. If it was merely a prediction, then his death would've had a cause, but it didn't. He was dying even before fighting her in GT-10.

Disagree with Creation. This isn't saying Alice can create Transcdents on her own. It's saying Trismegistus and the Bridge Builders can produce new Transcendents as long as Alice exists as a model.
It's not really one or the other. It's true that more Transcendents can be produced with her as the reference model, but it's literally spelled out right there that she can create as many Transcendents as she wants. There's no reason why both can't be true.

Disagree somewhat. I think we should add possible here since "cutting threads of life" is only proposed as a possible theory for how the The Executioner's decapitation curse works.
Yeah, you're right. That would be better.

Disagree with internal resistances that aren't in the text. I think it's a huge stretch to phrase this as "immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far" based on these quotes. And more dubious listing abilities unrelated to what's explicitly stated because they have an internal effect without having any idea what the mechanics are to this immunity beyond "she doesn't fit the requirements for this attack".
Are we sure Frillsand #G is categorized properly as Death Manipulation? IIRC her ability was the high energy phenomena that created stimuli too powerful for the human senses to handle.
Idk, it seems to make sense that it would cover all of those tbh. I mean, even on this site, the description of her immunity is literally the criterion for granting someone immunity to specific abilities on their profiles. e.g A robot being immune to soul manipulation, because the condition for effect does not apply to them in the first place. That's how Alice's immunity is described.

Are we sure Frillsand #G is categorized properly as Death Manipulation? IIRC her ability was the high energy phenomena that created stimuli too powerful for the human senses to handle.
Not sure tbh. It seemed like death manipulation from the description of it, but I've noticed it wasn't on her profile. She only has blanket durability negation on her profile.

Disagree with Resistance to Transcendents' abilities. The immunity comes from the regular Transcendent connection to Anotherbible. Alice is immune because she has precedence over the Alice series of magicians and not because she resists those individual abilities.
Doubt it's just blanket precedence that's at work here, when we have statements of Bologna's Cold Mistress being able to affect her, or Trismegistus actually going up against her. If there was just a blanket immunity thanks to precedence, that shouldn't be possible/make much sense. Resistance seems much more fitting IMO.
 
I think Child Alice should be tiered higher than At least 9-B. She defeated Risk 4 Trismegistus, Good, Old Mary and destroyed the Tribikos at the same time.
She defeated them off-screen, we have no idea what exactly she did and from what I recall nothing pointed for her using her physicals to do it.

I think we should name that form B Alice (Backside/Backstage) instead of Inner Alice because that's what Haimura refers to it as. Haimura calls the adult design in GT10, Alice Pleasance Liddell.
Wait, I am pretty confused now.

5B is for Adult Alice, when you say Backstage Alice you're talking about her Punishment Mode? I don't remember that version having 5B feats.

Her physical durability without magic isn't At least 5B since Touma can damage her with his fist.
Touma damaged Accel and Anna as well, that's not stopping us now, as we know that happens because of IB.

Although, if you're saying we should split her as "9B normally, 5B with magic" I would agree as long as we do that with both AP and Dura.

Disagree with Speed of Light attack and reaction speed. His attacks can be composed of light, but there's no indication Trismegistus or his slashes are light speed.
I think we can discuss that more when Tris gets a profile, because I do agree with light speed attack speed for him but that should be a discussion of its own rather than a side thing here.

Disagree with Infinite movement speed. This is essentially just teleportation.
No? It's not even compared to teleportation:

She took a step.

Just one
.

“Touma, she’s coming!!”

“!!!???”

He understood that, but he couldn’t restrain his reflexes as a living being. Crossing his arms in front of his face was a definite mistake.

The sweet scent of tea filled the boy’s nose. Something was overpowering the library’s old paper smell.

Alice Anotherbible already stood behind Kamijou.


Walking

In other words, she took action to move to her desired location.
___


Everything related to it point to her moving to a location instantly, not simply teleporting to it as you're implying.


Disagree with Regeneration Negation. Good, Old Mary’s resurrection is the one and only method of revival here. All context surrounding permanent death is in relation to the resurrection recipe. Obviously, if Alice kills someone there's no coming back. Mary cannot revive anyone Alice kills because Alice supersedes her as a regular Transcendent. And as far as healing negation goes, other characters have healed or recovered from injuries inflicted by Alice like Kingsford, Mary and Trismegistus.
I already explained why that's a wrong view of these statements, also, I am pretty sure it was stated only fatal wounds couldn't be healed.

Disagree with Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation. I don't think Death Manipulation is accurate. She didn't kill him, she accurately predicted his death. She didn't just make up or suggest something offhandedly, this is a true prophecy produced by her theory bridging.
Agreed, although I disagree that her theories have anything to do with it, as Alice herself said, her knowledge is just as good as her power and it's not like her "theory bridging" is passive or anything, there is no reason it would be used to cause Touma's death.

Disagree with Creation. This isn't saying Alice can create Transcdents on her own. It's saying Trismegistus and the Bridge Builders can produce new Transcendents as long as Alice exists as a model.
Agreed.

Disagree somewhat. I think we should add possible here since "cutting threads of life" is only proposed as a possible theory for how the The Executioner's decapitation curse works.
I think indexing it and the other theories as "possibly" for the executioner would be good, it could be formatted like Asta's profile where there's a section for each one of his swords, either that or we completely ignore it since Kamachi didn't actually explain what it is, but I really don't think we should go with such a lame option when there are solutions to it.

Disagree with internal resistances that aren't in the text. I think it's a huge stretch to phrase this as "immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far" based on these quotes. And more dubious listing abilities unrelated to what's explicitly stated because they have an internal effect without having any idea what the mechanics are to this immunity beyond "she doesn't fit the requirements for this attack".
First, that's why they were suggested as a possibly to begin with and I've seen similar statements being accepted before on the wiki, so there's no reason for us to not do that, even moreso when Kamachi explicitly said she would be unaffected by them regardless of if they're scientific or magical in nature, that definitely means he had at least some of those he created in mind.

Disagree with Resistance to Transcendents' abilities. The immunity comes from the regular Transcendent connection to Anotherbible. Alice is immune because she has precedence over the Alice series of magicians and not because she resists those individual abilities.
Where exactly was it stated that she is immune to these abilities because of precedence? And anyway, most of these she would resist because of Full Power Othinus anyway.
 
I already addressed this in the discussion thread. It is a prophecy sure, but it only exists because she suggested it. The novel literally points out that if he hadn't met her, he would've been alright.
The very quote you used specifically said "the day he first met Alice" not something like "the moment he was sentenced to death by Alice"

Like, c'mon now, it's called a prophecy for a reason and as you should recall, Touma wasn't going to die until he asked Alice to rewind the day and erase the effects of Wonderland on his fights, it's repeatedly made clear that that day was the final branch of his choices that could be used to avoid his death, not that Alice had made that (again, that wouldn't make sense, she didn't want him to die).

Also, she didn't suggest it, she said it would happen because she knew it would happen, two completely different things.

Plus the nature of his death wasn't exactly natural or of him succumbing to his injuries, lending more credence to the idea that she's the one who caused it. If it was merely a prediction, then his death would've had a cause, but it didn't. He was dying even before fighting her in GT-10.
There's no credence to the idea she caused it to begin with, as we saw when Touma was entering his school in GT10, what was killing him was the overload his body was going through from all the damage/deaths he had gone through, even having mentions to some of the deadly injuries caused by Aradia (i.e it having not outside cause ≠ it having no cause), all Alice did was accelerate the process when fighting him.


It's not really one or the other. It's true that more Transcendents can be produced with her as the reference model, but it's literally spelled out right there that she can create as many Transcendents as she wants. There's no reason why both can't be true.
She can't create them out of thin air or anything like that, indeed, both quotes in the OP are talking about Alice as an open-source Model (one explicitly, even) so like, when you say "both" what exactly are you talking about?


Not sure tbh. It seemed like death manipulation from the description of it, but I've noticed it wasn't on her profile. She only has blanket durability negation on her profile.
Frillsand's profile was never updated for her GT5 key, so we probably need to update her first and then see how that would affect Alice's resistances.
 
I am fine with having her as 5B Physically, at least High 1-C, likely far higher with Live Adventures in Wonderland tbh. Don't think there was any difference in terms of physicals between Front and Backstage Alice IIRC.
What I meant was if the justification is scaling her Live Adventures in Wonderland directly to Othinus we should scale her to High 1-C, likely far higher, because Othinus is High 1-C. I don't think there's any difference in physicality either tbf tbf. (But I understand this is debatable.)
He punched her sure, but there's no indication that that did/can do any damage to her at all. Touma himself confirmed so. His goal in that fight was to reach her and punch her, not damage her.
Nah, I mean he's actually slugging her.
A dull sound indicated a direct hit.
From Kamijou. He felt the solid impact of landing a punch.
The sensation in his fist was enough to clear his mind.
In a way, this was to be expected when Alice went all in on attack, spreading her arms and coming straight toward him without even considering defense.
“Kh.”
Beads of sweat flew from the grown woman as she bent back and left her “hugging” pose. With the trunk of her body still collapsed, she clawed at the air with her fingers bent like hooks.
Their fists collided.
Sound vanished for a brief moment.
Creating a blank.
Perhaps some vital lines had been severed inside his body.
His fist felt hot. It may have already broken.
The world seemed to tilt around him.
But he still gathered strength in his legs to keep himself from falling.
Alice’s legs were shaking too. Her shoulders were heaving as she breathed and one eye was unnaturally closed. The eyelid may have been cut.
But she was still on her feet.
This wasn’t about right or wrong and it wasn’t about like or dislike.
Both of them simply refused to back down. No matter what.
Possibly, but the fact that she physically moves to reach a destination points to it being infinite speed. The novel even points out that she's not using magic or any special move, her actions are just purified to such an extent that her moving to reach a certain destination means that she's already arrived there. That's infinite speed IMO. There's also the fact that she can't do it with a thought, and has to physically move, which points to it not being teleportation.
This miracle creation is still an ability, not sheer speed. She has to extract and refine a miracle from an action or nothing supernatural will happen and she can only extract one miracle from her body at a time. You can see her walking/moving/stepping normally at times in this fight. That's why I say it's a teleportation ability.
After just barely dodging a deadly attack that sliced through the walls and pillars, he threw another punch that Alice blocked with her other hand. But unlike with her “walking” or “binding”, there was no special effect here.
Alice didn’t have time to extract and refine a miracle out of that action.
“So why don’t you just keep on ‘crawling’ while you attack? Then you could remain untouchable the entire time you send your unfair attacks our way.”
“…”
“Since you aren’t doing that, I can only assume you’re limited to using one miracle at a time. For example, your ‘crawling’ causes any attacks to pass right through you, but it also keeps you from laying a finger on us, so you can never actually end the fight that way, can you? Your ‘walking’ and ‘cursing’ are the same. Your miracles are isolated things – they can’t be combined or used in parallel! Which means I’ve found your weakness, Alice Anotherbible. I don’t know how tough you are, but you can’t make yourself untouchable while you attack. The damage will reach you then!!”
You have a point about the other Transcendents and Kingsford healing from injuries caused by her. I still think it should count as some kind of resurrection negation, especially with the novel repeatedly making a point of the finality of death caused by Alice.
That finality is a combination of Touma having used up his resurrections from GT6~GT9 and the fact Alice is the enemy this volume so Resurrection Recipe is useless regardless. There's no other resurrection ability besides Mary's to substantiate.
I already addressed this in the discussion thread. It is a prophecy sure, but it only exists because she suggested it. The novel literally points out that if he hadn't met her, he would've been alright.
Plus the nature of his death wasn't exactly natural or of him succumbing to his injuries, lending more credence to the idea that she's the one who caused it. If it was merely a prediction, then his death would've had a cause, but it didn't. He was dying even before fighting her in GT-10.
Yes, Alice made a true prophecy about his final branch, but it wasn't "Alice said Touma will die and because of that he died" because why would she kill him?, it was "Alice prophesied Touma will die if he makes this decision". Which is why the novel stresses this is something he did himself and that Alice didn't mean to cause him any harm at all. She merely told him exactly what would happen if he chose that option.
Of course, Alice hadn’t intended to harm him.
He had chosen it himself. She had warned him not to, but he hadn’t believed in the absoluteness of her prophecy, he hadn’t given much thought at all to his own life, and he had simply assumed everything would work out the way it always did. Even though things were different this time. If he had known then how extraordinary Alice was, he never would have seen it that way.
But a choice was a choice.
He had already used up his one and only ticket.
He had walked through the crossroads, so there was no way left to avoid his predetermined death.
“Because the girl wanted to use the library’s knowledge to do something she couldn’t? To correct her broken head? No, the girl is already perfect and unbreakable. The answer is simple. The girl wanted to help you after you passed the final branch. The girl wanted to search through a library of all the world’s knowledge to find some method still remaining in this world. That was all.”
“…………………………………………………………………………………”
He had passed the fatal branch.
He had foolishly chosen to cross it and he had arrived at a mistaken destination.
Which one of them was really in need of help?
Also some quotes seem to indicate this irregular death (the why he died) is being caused by something external, but thats just theory for now.
“You can’t defeat the girl, teacher. If everything had gone as planned and the girl had used her full power, you might have been spared this death coming from the outside.”
It's not really one or the other. It's true that more Transcendents can be produced with her as the reference model, but it's literally spelled out right there that she can create as many Transcendents as she wants. There's no reason why both can't be true.
It's not saying Alice herself can do that, in context, for either of those quotes IMHO, but I'll budge on this because I can see it the other way.
Idk, it seems to make sense that it would cover all of those tbh. I mean, even on this site, the description of her immunity is literally the criterion for granting someone immunity to specific abilities on their profiles. e.g A robot being immune to soul manipulation, because the condition for effect does not apply to them in the first place. That's how Alice's immunity is described.
A robot not having a soul is a specific mechanic immunity from soul manipulation. With Alice, we have no idea what she has or what she's lacking that gives her immunity to internal damage, so listing things that aren't explicitly stated is very dubious IMO.
Doubt it's just blanket precedence that's at work here, when we have statements of Bologna's Cold Mistress being able to affect her, or Trismegistus actually going up against her. If there was just a blanket immunity thanks to precedence, that shouldn't be possible/make much sense. Resistance seems much more fitting IMO.
Cold Mistress showed promise because of her child like personality just like with CRC's personality, but it really only made CRC grimace and Kamijou kinda ruled it out when she became adult Alice and lost her reason. I don't think Trismegistus (Alice model) managed to do anything to her in that fight.
Alice having precedence over the regular Transcedents is stated a couple times.
Anna and Alice.
Two irregular Transcendents.
Just like Alice Anotherbible brought everything to her side, including probability and insight, Anna Sprengel was manipulating some unseen factor in real time.
“Accept me, H.T. Trismegistus!! You regular Transcendents are based on Alice, so you can never harm her. But if you swap out foundations, you can bypass Alice’s precedence over you. Like comparing heights of the Tower of Babel and the World Tree Yggdrasil!!”
“I am in your debt.”
“I’m only doing this to make that fool smile. And you want Alice to smile in the same way, right? Then hurry!!”
An invisible change came over the air. A weight vanished.
New possibility had presented itself. If Aradia, the Bologna Succubus, and the other Transcendents also swapped out their connection, they could possibly overturn Alice’s absoluteness.


She defeated them off-screen, we have no idea what exactly she did and from what I recall nothing pointed for her using her physicals to do it.
It was on screen, I rechecked the volume, she seems to be defeating them with some contactless explosive ability.
Light flashed.
A wet explosion rang out.
This was not two Transcendents attacking and defeating each other simultaneously.
“Court, court, court.”
Far below, a small silhouette walked along the ground. And the girl was saying something.
Her words formed a rhythm like she was humming an improvised song.
Hers was the last voice Kamijou had wanted to hear right now.
“The girl’s court is in session.”
This was Alice Anotherbible, the true tyrant who had obliteratedthose ordinary Transcendents in the blink of an eye.
[...]
“A-Alice?”
“Yes, teacher?”
“That’s enough. This is already over. So you need to calm down and-”
“No.”
A dull popping sound followed.
But it was wetter than an explosive going off.
The young girl hadn’t even directed her small palm in that direction. She hadn’t evenglanced that way.
But Trismegistus was still launched from the ground. His already injured body twistedfurther in midair, crashed helplessly back to the ground, and kept rolling.
“Alice!!!”
Was he alright? Not the physical impact or pressure. Was he alright on the level of thefundamental definition of a Transcendent!?
And it didn’t end there.
Alice’s shadow pulsated at her feet. She wanted another sacrifice.
Wait, I am pretty confused now.

5B is for Adult Alice, when you say Backstage Alice you're talking about her Punishment Mode? I don't remember that version having 5B feats.
Yes. But tbf they can probably do the same thing ngl (I only say this because we have no statements of power differences between these "transformations"). But if we're just looking at what happened "Punishment Mode" has really only just stood there, commanded Wonders and used Live Adventures in Wonderland tbf.
No? It's not even compared to teleportation:

She took a step.

Just one.

“Touma, she’s coming!!”

“!!!???”

He understood that, but he couldn’t restrain his reflexes as a living being. Crossing his arms in front of his face was a definite mistake.

The sweet scent of tea filled the boy’s nose. Something was overpowering the library’s old paper smell.

Alice Anotherbible already stood behind Kamijou.


Walking

In other words, she took action to move to her desired location.
___


Everything related to it point to her moving to a location instantly, not simply teleporting to it as you're implying.
Isn't this what teleportation is, moving to a location instantly? She's using an ability to move (extracting the essence of walking to gain the pure end result of the destination instantly), this is not sheer speed.
I already explained why that's a wrong view of these statements, also, I am pretty sure it was stated only fatal wounds couldn't be healed.
I took a look, but I wasn't seeing your point. Kingsford had a chunk of her neck taken out and Mary was described as close to death.
Agreed, although I disagree that her theories have anything to do with it, as Alice herself said, her knowledge is just as good as her power and it's not like her "theory bridging" is passive or anything, there is no reason it would be used to cause Touma's death.
I only said theory bridging because the narration gave an example of it when describing her prophecy's absoluteness.
It was a prophecy.
Like Nostradamus, astrology, a dream that comes true, letting a spirit possess you to answer questions, or having an aquarium octopus predict the results of soccer matches.
It didn’t really matter what.
It could be scientific or not and it could even violate the rules of magic. If the theory had been proposed at any time throughout history, Alice could build the bridge to make it real. Once a ridiculous theory began to operate, she could toy with it until it was hers.
It may have been less concerning if she had said she simply knew it to be true with no reason behind it. Because no matter how often someone’s intuition was correct, it could always be wrong.
But that excuse didn’t exist here.
The logic behind it was nonsensical, but it did exist.
First, that's why they were suggested as a possibly to begin with and I've seen similar statements being accepted before on the wiki, so there's no reason for us to not do that, even moreso when Kamachi explicitly said she would be unaffected by them regardless of if they're scientific or magical in nature, that definitely means he had at least some of those he created in mind.
I'm fine with possibly for abilities that fit the genre of what was stated like say uh St. Germain's parasitic microbes (magic) Sample Shoggoth (science), but abilities that are unrelated to bacteria, bugs and curses is a huge stretch to me without knowing the mechanic behind this internal immunity. I'd ask DT about this one imo.
Where exactly was it stated that she is immune to these abilities because of precedence? And anyway, most of these she would resist because of Full Power Othinus anyway.
Anna and Alice.
Two irregular Transcendents.
Just like Alice Anotherbible brought everything to her side, including probability and insight, Anna Sprengel was manipulating some unseen factor in real time.
“Accept me, H.T. Trismegistus!! You regular Transcendents are based on Alice, so you can never harm her. But if you swap out foundations, you can bypass Alice’s precedence over you. Like comparing heights of the Tower of Babel and the World Tree Yggdrasil!!”
“I am in your debt.”
“I’m only doing this to make that fool smile. And you want Alice to smile in the same way, right? Then hurry!!”
An invisible change came over the air. A weight vanished.
New possibility had presented itself. If Aradia, the Bologna Succubus, and the other Transcendents also swapped out their connection, they could possibly overturn Alice’s absoluteness.
How does 100% Othinus come into play here?
 
This miracle creation is still an ability, not sheer speed. She has to extract and refine a miracle from an action or nothing supernatural will happen and she can only extract one miracle from her body at a time. You can see her walking/moving/stepping normally at times in this fight. That's why I say it's a teleportation ability.
What? It's speed being amped by an ability, the text doesn't imply teleportation at any point at all. Literally as simple as "Infinite travel speed with Walking Miracle", like, it's really as simple as that.

It was on screen, I rechecked the volume, she seems to be defeating them with some contactless explosive ability.
I was referring to the first attack that stopped their clash and the attack that destroy Tribikos, the quote you sent just says that a wt explosion happened when they were going to clash.

Anyway, what matters is that, as I said, she didn't do that with her physicals, so we won't scale her physicals to it.


But tbf they can probably do the same thing ngl (I only say this because we have no statements of power differences between these "transformations"
If we don't have anything saying they all have the same strength and they don't have feats of their own to be at 5B, then there's no reason to scale them to 5B.

Isn't this what teleportation is, moving to a location instantly? She's using an ability to move (extracting the essence of walking to gain the pure end result of the destination instantly), this is not sheer speed.
Do you know what infinite speed is? Because the entire difference between infinite speed and teleportation is that infinite speed needs the character to cross the entire path instantly while teleportation gets you from A to B instantly without crossing the path, Alice is doing the former, and again, Alice isn't even implied to be using it, the novel explicitly says she moved/walked to her desired location, not that she disappeared and appeared there instantly.

LIke, the end result of both abilities is the same, it's infinite speed because she moved from A to B and also cause Kamachi has created many teleportation users before, if it was that simple he would simply say that or at least imply that.


I took a look, but I wasn't seeing your point. Kingsford had a chunk of her neck taken out and Mary was described as close to death.
Kingsford... is already dead? Like, she is effectively a zombie moving cause of machines, she wasn't alive to begin with so Alice simply didn't kill anything and as I said in the other post, none of the quotes make sense if they meant "anyone other than Mary would work".

When was Mary described as close to death?

I'm fine with possibly for abilities that fit the genre of what was stated like say uh St. Germain's parasitic microbes (magic) Sample Shoggoth (science), but abilities that are unrelated to bacteria, bugs and curses is a huge stretch to me without knowing the mechanic behind this internal immunity. I'd ask DT about this one imo.

This time, no cricket bat or hedgehog balls emerged from below her apron. This was a formless curse, after all. But Alice was still entirely unaffected by the invisible attack.

Was she built differently from the others on the inside?


Was this like how carbon monoxide was deadly to humans but harmless to insects because their blood was different? This didn’t seem like she simply didn’t feel any pain because she was that much stronger than the average person. It was a lot more like the conditions of the attack didn’t apply to her in the first place. Kamijou even had a meaningless fantasy about someone continually giving animal carcasses to a vulture in the hopes of giving it food poisoning.

___

This quote is pretty important to understand her resistance:

First, it referred to Frillsand's attack as a curse, which was among the listed things yeah, but her ability is completely different from what is normally defined as a curse, damn, her ability isn't even magical in nature as curses normally are, so your idea of "fitting the genre" simply doesn't align with the way Kamachi treated her resistance.

Second, as was explained in GT10, Alice was in fact built to be different, to the point there was a mention on how she didn't need to refine her mana or something like that iirc, even the examples used compare her to a fish drowning and a vulture being poisoned, two examples of animals that are born able to survive things that would kill normal humans through "internal damage"

Third, when the novel said "the conditions don't apply to her" it isn't something like "she doesn't have anything inside her to be affected", just look at the example here with Frillsand, Alice can sense the stimuli she uses to use her invisible attack/curse, she was modified by magic and became immune to internal damage, both scientific and magical, that's all we need to know, what do you even mean by "without knowing the mechanic"? What mechanic is needed beyond what we already know and that would stop us from adding things as a simple "possibly"? If we had super detailed "mechanic" behind her resistances we wouldn't be arguing for them to be a possibly to begin with, but the lack of a "mechanic" doesn't mean things can't be added, simply as that.

On a side note, poison gas was also explicitly noted in GT5, so it adds to how Kamachi is seeing her as resistant to all forms of internal damage even if he doesn't go around naming all of them each single time:

Tens of thousands of bugs apparently wasn’t enough for her to feel repulsed or disgusted. She had used the bat and balls before. Poison gas, curses, and other forms of internal damage never seemed to affect her. (It almost felt like trying to drown a fish in water.) But her soft skin could not deflect the macroscopic external damage of the crickets. Plus, she was wearing a skirt and short sleeves.
___


How does 100% Othinus come into play here?
Kamachi explicitly stated Alice and the Transcendents could have directly fought/killed Othinus, which means that, at the very least, Alice would have to be resistant to her hax, as none of the other Transcendents really add anything to the fight that would help defeating Othinus.

As I said somewhere, not sure if here or in the general thread, if the Transcendents had any statement in the actual story supporting such a thing they would also get resistances, but in practice Alice is the only one who has Kamachi+novel saying she could survive Othinus, although I've seen many people try to use the quote to say all Risk 4s scale to Othinus and can resist her hax, but I really don't agree with it.
 
I was referring to the first attack that stopped their clash and the attack that destroy Tribikos, the quote you sent just says that a wt explosion happened when they were going to clash.

Anyway, what matters is that, as I said, she didn't do that with her physicals, so we won't scale her physicals to it.
It's revealed it wasn't actually a clash, but one attack from Alice that defeated the Transcendents and destroyed Tribikos. I highlighted wet explosion because that description is reserved for Alice's attacks in this volume. I said it was contactless, so I agree with you that it's not applicable to her physicals.
What? It's speed being amped by an ability, the text doesn't imply teleportation at any point at all. Literally as simple as "Infinite travel speed with Walking Miracle", like, it's really as simple as that.
My issue is there's nothing in the text that indicates her speed it being amped at all or that she actually traveled the distance.
Do you know what infinite speed is? Because the entire difference between infinite speed and teleportation is that infinite speed needs the character to cross the entire path instantly while teleportation gets you from A to B instantly without crossing the path, Alice is doing the former, and again, Alice isn't even implied to be using it, the novel explicitly says she moved/walked to her desired location, not that she disappeared and appeared there instantly.

LIke, the end result of both abilities is the same, it's infinite speed because she moved from A to B and also cause Kamachi has created many teleportation users before, if it was that simple he would simply say that or at least imply that.
Yes and that's the point I'm getting at. There's no indication Alice is crossing the entire path by physically walking via enhanced infinite speed. Both times she's used this Walking Miracle, she's taken one step, a step that anyone could make acknowledged by the narration and characters seeing it, and then that one action is so pure she gets the end result of already arriving at her destination. Nowhere in the novel does it say she actually physically moved/walked from point A to point B, her desired location.

Not really, Fiamma's ability for example is never called teleportation by Kamachi, but we see him demonstrate moving anywhere as long as it's leveled and clearly indexed it as teleportation.
Kingsford... is already dead? Like, she is effectively a zombie moving cause of machines, she wasn't alive to begin with so Alice simply didn't kill anything and as I said in the other post, none of the quotes make sense if they meant "anyone other than Mary would work".

When was Mary described as close to death?
Yes, Kingsford is a preserved corpse, but she is not like a zombie or robot. Machines make her body function and replace her stopped organs and because of that she explicitly has a lifeforce. It's why she can refine magic power, it's why the attack on her by Alice is described as a lethal one and it's why she said she wouldn't have been able to recover if Rosencreutz was more observant.
“Hm, fascinating. Since I can refine magic 🔌 in this body, it must contain a lifeforce of its own.”
I understood what your saying, but the quotes are just using "not even" as a negative emphasizer to acknowledge Mary's unique resurrection 'second chance' is now useless. There's no "anyone other than Mary" here with resurrection other than the original Alice so there nothing to substantiate this point.
Mary:
“You can’t do it this way, Alice.”
“Are you going to fight the girl? To protect Good, Old Mary who is lying there close to death?”
This time, no cricket bat or hedgehog balls emerged from below her apron. This was a formless curse, after all. But Alice was still entirely unaffected by the invisible attack.

Was she built differently from the others on the inside?

Was this like how carbon monoxide was deadly to humans but harmless to insects because their blood was different? This didn’t seem like she simply didn’t feel any pain because she was that much stronger than the average person. It was a lot more like the conditions of the attack didn’t apply to her in the first place. Kamijou even had a meaningless fantasy about someone continually giving animal carcasses to a vulture in the hopes of giving it food poisoning.

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This quote is pretty important to understand her resistance:

First, it referred to Frillsand's attack as a curse, which was among the listed things yeah, but her ability is completely different from what is normally defined as a curse, damn, her ability isn't even magical in nature as curses normally are, so your idea of "fitting the genre" simply doesn't align with the way Kamachi treated her resistance.

Second, as was explained in GT10, Alice was in fact built to be different, to the point there was a mention on how she didn't need to refine her mana or something like that iirc, even the examples used compare her to a fish drowning and a vulture being poisoned, two examples of animals that are born able to survive things that would kill normal humans through "internal damage"

Third, when the novel said "the conditions don't apply to her" it isn't something like "she doesn't have anything inside her to be affected", just look at the example here with Frillsand, Alice can sense the stimuli she uses to use her invisible attack/curse, she was modified by magic and became immune to internal damage, both scientific and magical, that's all we need to know, what do you even mean by "without knowing the mechanic"? What mechanic is needed beyond what we already know and that would stop us from adding things as a simple "possibly"? If we had super detailed "mechanic" behind her resistances we wouldn't be arguing for them to be a possibly to begin with, but the lack of a "mechanic" doesn't mean things can't be added, simply as that.

On a side note, poison gas was also explicitly noted in GT5, so it adds to how Kamachi is seeing her as resistant to all forms of internal damage even if he doesn't go around naming all of them each single time:

Tens of thousands of bugs apparently wasn’t enough for her to feel repulsed or disgusted. She had used the bat and balls before. Poison gas, curses, and other forms of internal damage never seemed to affect her. (It almost felt like trying to drown a fish in water.) But her soft skin could not deflect the macroscopic external damage of the crickets. Plus, she was wearing a skirt and short sleeves.
The quote says scientific or magical. Frillsand's ability is an "artificial curse" in the text as she is an artificial ghost. This scientific ability is compared to artificially reproducing the supernatural ghost photo curse where you would look at a picture and take unnatural damage, but in actuality its just a kind of stimulation overload of the senses controlled by high energy phenom.

"Build different" doesn't explain her resistance. There's no mechanic here. All we're told is she's constructed different and therefore immune, but we don't know why to the point where we can add unstated/unrelated abilities just because they have an internal effect. A vulture has special immune system/microbes and a fish has gills.

The text says Frillsand ability doesn't work on Alice because she does not fit the conditions for the attack because she might be built differently on the inside.
You need to know exactly why a character would be resistant/immune to something as justification for adding it... That's why I'm fine with possibly for internal abilities related to what was explicitly stated she was immune too, but wholly against anything unrelated, like I think I saw mentions of Telefragging, Transmutation etc resistances????

I have no issue with what's stated, Poison Gas is fine.

Kamachi explicitly stated Alice and the Transcendents could have directly fought/killed Othinus, which means that, at the very least, Alice would have to be resistant to her hax, as none of the other Transcendents really add anything to the fight that would help defeating Othinus.

As I said somewhere, not sure if here or in the general thread, if the Transcendents had any statement in the actual story supporting such a thing they would also get resistances, but in practice Alice is the only one who has Kamachi+novel saying she could survive Othinus, although I've seen many people try to use the quote to say all Risk 4s scale to Othinus and can resist her hax, but I really don't agree with it.
Is this the Afterward that he said in the event that the group killed Othinus there would be no one left to remake the world?
Yea you don't get specific stated resistances for fighting someone offscreen/hypothetically or from vague implication, we went through this extensively with staff a while back with True Gremlin.
 
I said it was contactless, so I agree with you that it's not applicable to her physicals.
Yeah, that's why she would keep the 9B rating for her Child Form (and punishment mode too if I got it right) and then her Adult form gets 5B Physicals, tho 5B also applies to her summons in general and those explosions would be 5B too it seems.

My issue is there's nothing in the text that indicates her speed it being amped at all or that she actually traveled the distance.
Yes and that's the point I'm getting at. There's no indication Alice is crossing the entire path by physically walking via enhanced infinite speed. Both times she's used this Walking Miracle, she's taken one step, a step that anyone could make acknowledged by the narration and characters seeing it, and then that one action is so pure she gets the end result of already arriving at her destination. Nowhere in the novel does it say she actually physically moved/walked from point A to point B, her desired location.
The novel repeatedly says that she moved to it:

Walking

In other words, she took action to move to her desired location.
___

She had moved to his blind spot and then his last-second counterattack had missed. What this meant squeezed at his heart. He might as well have offered her the perfect chance to attack him.
___

It doesn't say anything about disappearing on point A and then reappearing on point B, the name of the miracle is walking even, is there a more explicit form of saying someone is walking rather than teleporting? If it was something more generic like "Travelling" I would agree with you.

Anyway, I will just agree to disagree then, we won't get this done if we keep arguing this forever, whatever is accepted is accepted and that's it.

Not really, Fiamma's ability for example is never called teleportation by Kamachi, but we see him demonstrate moving anywhere as long as it's leveled and clearly indexed it as teleportation.
Not being explicitly called teleportation is far from my point tho, Alice is explicitly moving/walking from point A to B, Fiamma on the other hand made it clear he didn't really have to physically move.

But as I said above, teleportation or infinite speed, end result is the same so lets just wait.

Yes, Kingsford is a preserved corpse, but she is not like a zombie or robot. Machines make her body function and replace her stopped organs and because of that she explicitly has a lifeforce. It's why she can refine magic power, it's why the attack on her by Alice is described as a lethal one and it's why she said she wouldn't have been able to recover if Rosencreutz was more observant.
“Hm, fascinating. Since I can refine magic 🔌 in this body, it must contain a lifeforce of its own.”
Which is still completely different from what Mary does and that we're arguing Alice can null.

I am far, really far, from saying "Alice can null any type of immortality/resurrection", I am just saying anything that does the same thing Good Mary does (on the same or weaker scale) could be nulled by Alice, she's not just an "anti-transcendent" and her anti-resurrection is never implied to be like that.

I understood what your saying, but the quotes are just using "not even" as a negative emphasizer to acknowledge Mary's unique resurrection 'second chance' is now useless. There's no "anyone other than Mary" here with resurrection other than the original Alice so there nothing to substantiate this point.
Bro, if the Kamachi meant that "it only stops Good Mary's resurrection" he would have said it only stops her resurrection, that's nowhere
Mary:
“You can’t do it this way, Alice.”
“Are you going to fight the girl? To protect Good, Old Mary who is lying there close to death?”
I don't recall Mary having any fatal wounds there? GT10 was pretty specific:

“If you die, it’s over. I know it’s obvious, but you can’t forget that absolute rule!! Good, Old Mary’s resurrection does not work against fatal wounds caused by Alice herself. If you really want to save her, then you can’t expect the world to do you any favors. You can only reach out your own hand to help her!!”

Iirc she was just damaged, no kind of fatal wound was ever inflected on her (or Trismegistus, iirc).

The quote says scientific or magical. Frillsand's ability is an "artificial curse" in the text as she is an artificial ghost. This scientific ability is compared to artificially reproducing the supernatural ghost photo curse where you would look at a picture and take unnatural damage, but in actuality its just a kind of stimulation overload of the senses controlled by high energy phenom.
That's not what I was talking about in my first point, although you kinda got it anyway, Frillsand's ability isn't a curse, it doesn't fit the genre at all, so Kamachi isn't thinking at all that Alice can only resist "poison, bacterias and curses" or just what he explicitly wrote, internal damage, scientific or not, has no effect on her.

"Build different" doesn't explain her resistance. There's no mechanic here. All we're told is she's constructed different and therefore immune, but we don't know why to the point where we can add unstated/unrelated abilities just because they have an internal effect.
Wtf is even needed to "explain a resistance"? No such thing was never requested on any other CRT I've ever seen:

Why does she resist? Because she was magically enhanced/modified.

What does she resist? Any kind of internal damage, magical or scientific

That's already more than enough, we give all espers resistance to poison based on 2 or 3 quotes that give absolutely no mechanic behind it, we know why and we know what they resist and that's enough, so Alice's scope being larger than that doesn't change anything because it was explicitly stated to be anything, and such statement are frequently used to include "anything in the verse" (so as to avoid NLF, obviously), so if a character is stated to resist "everything in the verse" then that's what they can do, there's no way around it.

When was a "mechanic" ever needed to add something to a profile? If there's an statement saying a character can do something there's 0 need for a "mechanic" behind it for it to be indexed.

A vulture has special immune system/microbes and a fish has gills.
That's not the point, obviously a real world thing has a complex/known reason behind their abilities, which is not what Kamachi was aiming at with his examples.

He was clearly talking about how drowning and food poisoning can kill humans but some beings simply don't care about those things, and Alice is one of those beings, she doesn't need gills or an immune system, she is simply immune to them, it's a resistance for the sake of being a resistance, there's nothing more to it and there's nothing else that's need to index it as a "possibly" of all things.

The text says Frillsand ability doesn't work on Alice because she does not fit the conditions for the attack because she might be built differently on the inside.
You need to know exactly why a character would be resistant/immune to something as justification for adding it
No you don't, if a character is stated to be resistant that's all we need to know, I've seen countless cases of this across the entire wiki and even the poison resistance espers have, when it comes to Toaru (and possibly others as well, but Toaru doesn't have many widespread things so I'd have to check character by character to recall something).

That's why I'm fine with possibly for internal abilities related to what was explicitly stated she was immune too, but wholly against anything unrelated, like I think I saw mentions of Telefragging, Transmutation etc resistances????
Which are all methods of internal damage, Espers use teleportation to damage people and Kakine (and probably others too) have used transmutation to damage people as well, it fitts her statement and that's about it.

Is this the Afterward that he said in the event that the group killed Othinus there would be no one left to remake the world?
Yea you don't get specific stated resistances for fighting someone offscreen/hypothetically or from vague implication, we went through this extensively with staff a while back with True Gremlin.
Occam's Razor, Alice is stated to resist every type of internal damage in the verse and she is stated to be able to fight/kill Othinus, the simplest and most logical conclusion one can draw from this is that she resists any internal damage Othinus can do, it's a complete different case from True Gremlin, a bunch of characters that have absolutely no mention of resisting anything.

Saying Alice could be affected by any kind of internal damage done by Othinus or anyone else is completely against the narrative and the statements we have about her.
 
Yeah, that's why she would keep the 9B rating for her Child Form (and punishment mode too if I got it right) and then her Adult form gets 5B Physicals, tho 5B also applies to her summons in general and those explosions would be 5B too it seems.
Agreed.
The novel repeatedly says that she moved to it:

Walking

In other words, she took action to move to her desired location.
___

She had moved to his blind spot and then his last-second counterattack had missed. What this meant squeezed at his heart. He might as well have offered her the perfect chance to attack him.
___

It doesn't say anything about disappearing on point A and then reappearing on point B, the name of the miracle is walking even, is there a more explicit form of saying someone is walking rather than teleporting? If it was something more generic like "Travelling" I would agree with you.

Anyway, I will just agree to disagree then, we won't get this done if we keep arguing this forever, whatever is accepted is accepted and that's it.
Quote 1: The action she took is the step forward to get to her desired location, which she draws the 'Walking' miracle from. The novel makes a point to tell us only one step forward physically is being extracted each time "Walking" is used.
Quote 2: The word move here doesn't imply physical movement or anything other than a change in position. All teleportation in this series is described as moving.

It doesn't have to flatly. The novel doesn't explicitly say 'Walking' increased her speed infinitely and she arrived in 0 time. Appealing to the miracle name? Crawling, which extracts evasion, doesn't require her to physically crawl around and dodge attacks through amped speeds. Alice's "Crawling" merely extracts evasion from the simple crouching action and she has already achieved the pure result of every attack missing her.
An example? I follow DC so, "You have outraced instantaneous travel. I lose. I forfeit."

I can agree to disagree on this point then.
Not being explicitly called teleportation is far from my point tho, Alice is explicitly moving/walking from point A to B, Fiamma on the other hand made it clear he didn't really have to physically move.

But as I said above, teleportation or infinite speed, end result is the same so lets just wait.
Based on the above, I disagree on the explicitness.
He took one step forward.
With just that, Fiamma’s body moved five kilometers forward. It didn’t matter that the floor was missing between the two locations and it was just open air. As long as he had an open horizontal path, he could move anywhere.
He arrived in a room.
It's clear Fiamma isn't physically occupying the space in between his position and destination, but his body is being physically moved, which is why merely saying Alice moved is meaningless.
Like above I agree to wait for more input.
Which is still completely different from what Mary does and that we're arguing Alice can null.
I am far, really far, from saying "Alice can null any type of immortality/resurrection", I am just saying anything that does the same thing Good Mary does (on the same or weaker scale) could be nulled by Alice, she's not just an "anti-transcendent" and her anti-resurrection is never implied to be like that.
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Bro, if the Kamachi meant that "it only stops Good Mary's resurrection" he would have said it only stops her resurrection, that's nowhere
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I don't recall Mary having any fatal wounds there? GT10 was pretty specific:

SPOILER: GT VOLUME 10 CHAPTER 4 PART 2

Iirc she was just damaged, no kind of fatal wound was ever inflected on her (or Trismegistus, iirc).
? This is what we're arguing:
Regeneration Negation: It is reiterated multiple times that once Alice kills someone, there is no coming back. Not even Good Old Mary's resurrection can heal/bring back someone killed by Alice.
And I said I disagree because Alice hasn't demonstrated feats of giving someone fatal wounds that negate healing (I've given the Kingsford example) and the only reason Alice negates Mary's resurrection (the only revival ability) is because she's "outranked" as regular Transcendent not because Alice has an anti-resurrection ability.

Kamachi says why Mary's resurrection is ineffective against Alice multiple times...
“That is not possible. The Shrink Drink borrows a portion of Alice’s power, so not even Good, Old Mary’s resurrection can heal Anna Sprengel. It would violate the cabal’s order.”
Not even Good, Old Mary could save Anna from the Shrink Drink’s effects. Because a mere Transcendent could not resist even a fragment of Alice Anotherbible’s power.
“Alice won’t be so simple.”
“...”
“Good, Old Mary is a regular Transcendent, so she cannot interfere with an irregular one like Alice Anotherbible who has far surpassed the usual bounds of the category. If she is dead, there is no overturning that. Like it or not, the simple hierarchy prevents an ordinary Transcendent from changing that.
As a regular Transcendent, Good, Old Mary could not defeat an irregularity like Alice. That was plain as day from the fact that her resurrection had failed to save Anna from the Shrink Drink which had only contained a portion of Alice’s power.
They already had the proof.
The resurrection would not work on anyone killed by Alice.
Anna and Alice.
Two irregular Transcendents.
Just like Alice Anotherbible brought everything to her side, including probability and insight, Anna Sprengel was manipulating some unseen factor in real time.
“Accept me, H.T. Trismegistus!! You regular Transcendents are based on Alice, so you can never harm her. But if you swap out foundations, you can bypass Alice’s precedence over you. Like comparing heights of the Tower of Babel and the World Tree Yggdrasil!!”
“I am in your debt.”
“I’m only doing this to make that fool smile. And you want Alice to smile in the same way, right? Then hurry!!”
An invisible change came over the air. A weight vanished.
New possibility had presented itself. If Aradia, the Bologna Succubus, and the other Transcendents also swapped out their connection, they could possibly overturn Alice’s absoluteness.

This is how her resurrection works.
“Good, Old Mary’s resurrection spell essentially repairs a dead human’s body to a clean ,uninjured state at the moment of cardiac arrest. It might look like a miracle, but it is a purely medical phenomenon affecting only the physical body. She cannot directly bring back the soul itself. They will still need CPR afterwards. But repairing a body with all the blood missing is meaningless since their heart will not beat and they cannot breathe on their own. The great cost of the spell would be entirely wasted and all you would have is an intact hunk of flesh that would begin to slowly rot.”
All your quote is saying in context is Mary can't repair the body of someone killed by Alice. Why? Because she is a mere regular Alice model Transcendent.
Per the quote I linked, it says she was lying there close to death after being blasted by Alice. She is seen later completely fine and healing Aradia
Trismegistus' body was described as like a "crushed cicada", I didn't mention him because his irregular physiology makes assessing what is fatal difficult.
That's not what I was talking about in my first point, although you kinda got it anyway, Frillsand's ability isn't a curse, it doesn't fit the genre at all, so Kamachi isn't thinking at all that Alice can only resist "poison, bacterias and curses" or just what he explicitly wrote, internal damage, scientific or not, has no effect on her.
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Wtf is even needed to "explain a resistance"? No such thing was never requested on any other CRT I've ever seen:

Why does she resist? Because she was magically enhanced/modified.

What does she resist? Any kind of internal damage, magical or scientific

That's already more than enough, we give all espers resistance to poison based on 2 or 3 quotes that give absolutely no mechanic behind it, we know why and we know what they resist and that's enough, so Alice's scope being larger than that doesn't change anything because it was explicitly stated to be anything, and such statement are frequently used to include "anything in the verse" (so as to avoid NLF, obviously), so if a character is stated to resist "everything in the verse" then that's what they can do, there's no way around it.

When was a "mechanic" ever needed to add something to a profile? If there's an statement saying a character can do something there's 0 need for a "mechanic" behind it for it to be indexed.
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That's not the point, obviously a real world thing has a complex/known reason behind their abilities, which is not what Kamachi was aiming at with his examples.

He was clearly talking about how drowning and food poisoning can kill humans but some beings simply don't care about those things, and Alice is one of those beings, she doesn't need gills or an immune system, she is simply immune to them, it's a resistance for the sake of being a resistance, there's nothing more to it and there's nothing else that's need to index it as a "possibly" of all things.
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No you don't, if a character is stated to be resistant that's all we need to know, I've seen countless cases of this across the entire wiki and even the poison resistance espers have, when it comes to Toaru (and possibly others as well, but Toaru doesn't have many widespread things so I'd have to check character by character to recall something).
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Which are all methods of internal damage, Espers use teleportation to damage people and Kakine (and probably others too) have used transmutation to damage people as well, it fitts her statement and that's about it.
I think you misunderstood what I meant by genre. I'm just saying poison, bacterias and curses whether they be science or magic. Like a magical bacteria (St. Germain) or a scientific curse (Frillsand). All that really matters though is that she explicitly resists Frillsand's ability.
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You need to explain why a character resists an completely different ability if it isn't explicitly stated and they don't have feats based on the CRTs I've looked at.
She resists because she's built differently on the inside, and conditions of the internal attack don't apply to her.
And because "Any kind of internal damage" is so broad and "magically enhanced/modified" is so vague, there's no way to give a proper justification for something not explicitly stated in the novel.
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We give Espers resistance to poison broadly because of quotes saying extensive use of chemicals in Esper development has the side effect of giving them a tolerance to poison. It's in the text. And just because you have poison resistance doesn't mean you resist every poison//Nobody is putting they resists Belzébuth on every Esper profile. You are arguing for a laundry list of specific abilities as stated resistances that aren't in the text from a broad statement and you're extrapolating 'anything in the verse' from that statement. Kamachi has made many sweeping statements in this series that we don't treat this way.

You'd need a justification for why you're adding a resistance that isn't explicitly in the text and you don't have feats for, especially when it's as vague as what Alice is doing. If you don't have a mechanic we don't know how she resists an ability with completely different properties than what she has feats for. (It seems we're just arguing site policy in circles rather than the novel at this point.)
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Those example animals all specifically have an innate mechanism that makes harm inapplicable. Alice is also immune because she is vaguely "built differently", Alice doesn't meet the conditions for those internal attacks to do damage. "Resistance for the sake of being a resistance" is fine until its for something that's not explicitly in the text, then we don't know why she resists these things. Possibly only makes sense for things related to what was explicitly stated.
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If a character is explicitly stated to be resistant to something thats fine, but sweeping statements like "immune to all magic or all science" without a why is going to be met with much more scrutiny when you start adding specific magic from my experience. Esper resistance to toxins is explicitly stated in the text. (Since this is a site policy disagreement again between us, so maybe we should get staff input rather than argue this forever.)
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Telefragging and transmutation can both cause external damage and both abilities are wholly unrelated to anything listed in that novel.
Occam's Razor, Alice is stated to resist every type of internal damage in the verse and she is stated to be able to fight/kill Othinus, the simplest and most logical conclusion one can draw from this is that she resists any internal damage Othinus can do, it's a complete different case from True Gremlin, a bunch of characters that have absolutely no mention of resisting anything.

Saying Alice could be affected by any kind of internal damage done by Othinus or anyone else is completely against the narrative and the statements we have about her.
Occam's Razor? With how many of them and how much the Transcendents vary from each other + Alice, you have exactly 0 idea how a hypothetical fight would go down or how they would manage to kill Othinus. Immunity to internal damage is wholly irrelevant to this conversation and to a character who fights normally by manipulating the external world...
You're missing the broad point about policy, on the True Gremlin discussion if you recall it was stated by staff:
1) Just because characters can explicitly fight each other doesn't mean they get stated resistances to each others powers.
2) There are more ways to circumvent a power than resistances. So stated resistance shouldn't be given due to vague implications.
3) Stated resistances are only given if a character shows it on-screen or on-panel. Not even if it's implied, because there could be a number of unknown factors at work.
4) There could always be PIS. Characters not using extremely powerful abilities when they really should is common in fiction.
I could ask those staff to come assess if you'd like. That might be more productive than us arguing policy.

There's only a hand full statements about Alice and Othinus and none of them are about resistances. You cant just scale everything up to Othinus.
We get these 'immunity statements' in the series every once in a while and we obviously never NLF inflate them like this without feats. Like the quote about full power Carissa w/ Curtana Original being immune to all human magic. I think I saw Phase Control being mentioned as an internal damage? Alice only feat against Phase Control is legit being killed by it.
 
On a first glance while a lot of these seem solid such as Proposed AP, I'm iffy on the subject of speed and internal damage. I'm gonna have to agree with Zensum on that end. It's pretty clear that in context its referring more to internal based attacks. Such as poisons, gasses, and magic that can accomplish similar things. As for example of the 'conditions' being different, you can kind of compare it to Mental Out not working on Anna for a gross example. The analogy used by Touma is basically saying that rather than her being outright "immune" to it, it's the methodology that's the problem which creates the immunity. Its kinda like digesting venom. You wont die from it, but if it were injected rather, thats different. It doesnt mean youre immune to poison.

Similarly, I also disagree on the High 1-B proposal as it stands.
 
I was asked to comment regarding resistances.

In terms of any resistance or power a character must directly showcase the ability or have a statement saying that they can withstand it. It's part of the NLF principle, where we can't assume a character can do something without a direct piece of evidence.

Even fighting someone wouldn't give you resistance to their powers unless they use them on the other character first. You can't even power scale resistances in most cases.
 
In terms of any resistance or power a character must directly showcase the ability or have a statement saying that they can withstand it. It's part of the NLF principle, where we can't assume a character can do something without a direct piece of evidence.
There's a very specific statement saying that she can resist all forms of internal damage, regardless of if they're magical or scientific in nature.

Why wouldn't that apply to forms of internal damage that have been used in-verse? I am pretty sure a statement akin to "X character can resist any abilities from Y group" would be accepted, this is literally the same just in a higher scale because it's about one of the top tiers of the verse.
 
In terms of any resistance or power a character must directly showcase the ability or have a statement saying that they can withstand it. It's part of the NLF principle, where we can't assume a character can do something without a direct piece of evidence.

Even fighting someone wouldn't give you resistance to their powers unless they use them on the other character first. You can't even power scale resistances in most cases.
These are the specific instance of a direct showcase and statement, demonstrating and explaining her immunity to internal damage:
With that, Shirai started to stand from the bench.

That was when it happened.

“…is…still…”

Kamijou Touma’s view dropped straight down. No, all his strength had drained from him and he fell to his knees.

“Kah…”

He didn’t even have time to shout.

An unpleasant sound came from within his body. He thought he maybe had a nosebleed, but the stickiness he felt while blinking told him there was blood below his eyelids.

He saw a doll-like blue dress and long blonde twintails blowing in a way unrelated to the night breeze. She was right there in front of him, but she looked less real than a mirage.

(Frillsand #G!? Why does she have to show up now!?)

She hadn’t laid a finger on him.

She had not shot a horrific beam of light through his chest and she hadn’t caused a massive explosion.

She had simply appeared before him.

That was enough for a wet and sticky sensation to flow from his eye and ears. After falling to his knees, he was helpless to do anything but slowly collapse forward.

He was experiencing unexplained bleeding, a headache, chills, and a fever.

Death was approaching little by little – step by step.

“What? Bh…ah!!!???”

(Damn…it. I can’t even raise my right hand. This attack…makes no sense. Agh, what am I even supposed to punch with Imagine Breaker!?)

“…still…inside…”

This was absurdly dangerous.

That monotone female voice was simply too dangerous.

His vision was tilted on its side and growing red starting from one side, but he managed to see Shirai Kuroko collapsing from the bench to the ground. His brain was hallucinating cracking and straining noises. The confusion of all his senses was worse than any pain and it felt like having an invisible hand squeezing him in its grasp.

This was Frillsand #G the artificial ghost.

Unlike in Alice’s world, she did not just launch powerful electricity and use her scientific nature to resist Imagine Breaker.

This was not a visible, physical threat like that. He didn’t understand any of it, but was she a much more dangerous being who would kill you if you carelessly looked in her direction when she spoke to you!?

At the same time…

“Yawwwn?”

He heard an odd voice.

It was cheerful, carefree, and cutely sweet. Apparently she had trouble staying up late in the real world too. She was nodding off in the middle of the crisis playing out around her.

Alice Anotherbible looked like she had stepped out of a picture book and she alone remained standing. After holding a small hand to her mouth and yawning, she placed her index finger on her chin and tilted her head to ask a question.

Yes.

The fundamental question of why was everyone around her collapsing?

“Ri…still…inside…”

“That won’t work on the girl,” interrupted Alice with a sleepily clueless smile.

This time, no cricket bat or hedgehog balls emerged from below her apron. This was a formless curse, after all. But Alice was still entirely unaffected by the invisible attack.

Was she built differently from the others on the inside?

Was this like how carbon monoxide was deadly to humans but harmless to insects because their blood was different? This didn’t seem like she simply didn’t feel any pain because she was that much stronger than the average person. It was a lot more like the conditions of the attack didn’t apply to her in the first place. Kamijou even had a meaningless fantasy about someone continually giving animal carcasses to a vulture in the hopes of giving it food poisoning.

Which was more unnatural here: Frillsand #G for causing fatal wounds without laying a finger on anyone or Alice for being exposed to that and smiling like it was nothing?

“A ghost can’t match the girl’s level of mystery☆”
Also, her body was immune to bacteria, bugs, curses, and all other forms of internal damage, both scientific and magical. As for external damage, she would always remain unscathed thanks to the hedgehogs and flamingo protecting her. Moreover, this didn’t come from a fear of shedding blood. She protected herself that way because if anything obstructed her actions, she might get angry and kill someone.

Is it really not enough to justify this, when there's a direct showing and statement?:
2. Immunity to Internal Damage: (Is stated to be immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far. The novel states that this is due to her being built differently, and the conditions for internal damage not applying to her.)
 
I'm gonna have to agree with Zensum on that end. It's pretty clear that in context its referring more to internal based attacks. Such as poisons, gasses, and magic that can accomplish similar things. As for example of the 'conditions' being different, you can kind of compare it to Mental Out not working on Anna for a gross example. The analogy used by Touma is basically saying that rather than her being outright "immune" to it, it's the methodology that's the problem which creates the immunity. Its kinda like digesting venom. You wont die from it, but if it were injected rather, thats different. It doesnt mean youre immune to poison.
The proposal in the CRT should be fine then, without listing down specific resistances, one by one:
2. Immunity to Internal Damage: (Is stated to be immune to all forms of internal damage seen in the series so far. The novel states that this is due to her being built differently, and the conditions for internal damage not applying to her.)
 
@XDragnoir , @Zensum , @Accelerate420
Am I correct to assume that you guys are fine with the proposed AP/Tier rating?

To organize things, and help this move along,
Current points of contention:
1. Regeneration negation
My proposal is to change this to only resurrection negation, as I believe that's been made clear enough with various statements from the LN
2. Infinite speed
Currently leaning towards teleportation myself.
3. Immunity/Resistance to various forms of internal damage
This can be resolved IMO if we go by the initial proposal in the CRT without having to list down specific forms of internal damage resistances.

Changes to Initial Proposals:
1. Removal of creation
2. Changing SoL speed to Sub-Relativistic
3. Removal of Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation

Did I miss anything?
 
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The proposal in the CRT should be fine then, without listing down specific resistances, one by one
No, that's useless.

Resisting "internal damage" by itself means nothing because there are multiple forms of internal damage, either we index the ones she should resist that we've seen in verse or there's no utility indexing "internal damage" as a separate thing.
 
@XDragnoir , @Zensum , @Accelerate420
Am I correct to assume that you guys are fine with the proposed AP/Tier rating?

To organize things, and help this move along,
Current points of contention:
1. Regeneration negation

2. Infinite speed

3. Immunity/Resistance to various forms of internal damage


Changes to Initial Proposals:
1. Removal of creation
2. Changing SoL speed to Sub-Relativistic
3. Removal of Death Manipulation via Fate Manipulation

Did I miss anything?
She predicted his death, if he had not met her, he would have been alive. I think it's not worth deleting this.
 
@XDragnoir , @Zensum , @Accelerate420
Am I correct to assume that you guys are fine with the proposed AP/Tier rating?

To organize things, and help this move along,
Current points of contention:
1. Regeneration negation

2. Infinite speed

3. Immunity/Resistance to various forms of internal damage
My only issue with the AP/Tier was the 'At least' on the Live Adventures in Wonderland. And I agreed with Dragnoirs points on Child and B Alice's tiering.
1. Still disagree here.
3. Resistance wise, before ability specificities, there's a policy contention first and foremost that staff can handle, so I'll wait for more input. If anyone wants to ask them to comment that would be helpful.
 
Why wouldn't that apply to forms of internal damage that have been used in-verse? I am pretty sure a statement akin to "X character can resist any abilities from Y group" would be accepted, this is literally the same just in a higher scale because it's about one of the top tiers of the verse.
The only thing that would give her is a possible resistance tab like with Yhwach and the Schrifts. Since the resistances are not shown and is only an implication.
 
The only thing that would give her is a possible resistance tab like with Yhwach and the Schrifts. Since the resistances are not shown and is only an implication.
Yes, I am saying we should do that since the general thread, but one side is saying we should not add anything at all.

So can we put you as "agree with possibly for resistances"?
 
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