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Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu's Limitations

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I've noticed that when it comes to Aizen's Zanpakuto ability, it's used primarily in a NLF mannor, vigorously. And to be fair, so do you all.

As we know, KS gives Aizen complete control over the body's senses:

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But, we also know there are abilities that do exactly the same all throughout fiction. Kyouka Suigetsu is devestating within the confines of it's own verse, but outside of Bleach, it's nolonger that special. I'm not trying to be cheeky or anything, the reason I say it's not special outside of Bleach is because Bleach is a verse where the concepts of being resistant or Immune to illusion creation doesn't exist. There is no such thing in Bleach.
This is the fundemental difference between Bleach and verses like Naruto or Seraph of the End, etc.

In these verses, those concepts exist. Yet, time and time again, are ignored in the face of Aizen's Zanpakuto's ability. That's not something we can just let slide or ignore.

Sure, in every verse, how illusions are created and the senses controlled or tricked differ. One of the biggest issues I come across on VsBW and other forums alike is that people are mechanics rather than feats. Example:

  • Genjutsu (Naruto) vs Kyouka Suigetsu
In Naruto, Genjutsu exactly like KS, controls the senses of a target allowing the caster to show them any image they deem fit. This is accomplished by controlling the chakra within someone's brain whereas KS simply allows Aizen to manipulate without the energy manipulation.

So when someone is resistant or Immune in Naruto to Genjutsu, people argue that they won't be immune or resistant towards KS. That's not true, especially for Sharingan users. The Sharingan allows the user to simply no sell illusions in most cases. They aren't stopping the caster from manipulatating their brain chakra, it's just the illusion produced is seen through. And that's what's important, not the method.

PROPOSAL:

What I want to propose is that we make a Note on Aizen's page regarding KS and this issue that characters whom are shown to be Resistant/Immune to illusions and NOT the methods by which the illusions are cast, be immune/resistant to KS.

I believe this to be fair.
 
interesting interestin i concur. Gotta say when your under its spell the only way to get out is to touch the blade which is so hard
 
that sounds like a NLF tho. Im pretty sure if sasuke or itachi were to fight a soul they would be able to put it in a genjutsu just as easy since chakra has spiritual energy.
 
It is a nlf for sasuke and itachi who don't have the feats to say they can. But Yeah, with verse equalization is possible.
 
Bruh chakra is made out of spiritual energy too. They always had the feats. When you use genjutsu your automatically putting the soul and body in a genjutsu since chakra consist of spiritual energy
 
yeah you let that go over your head lol. IT talked about spiritual matter and spiritual energy lol. I said genjutsu can effect spirits because chakra is made of spiritual energy. I didnt say aynthing about controlling a spirits matter or anything of the such.
 
Then that's a nlf. Since he clearly starts with saying that they both have spiritual energy. And in Naruto souls are made of chakra, not reishi. Reishi doesn't have spiritual energy. It was debunked.
 
AppleLord said:
Then that's a nlf. Since he clearly starts with saying that they both have spiritual energy. And in Naruto souls are made of chakra, not reishi. Reishi doesn't have spiritual energy. It was debunked.
Reishi= spirit particles. Like atoms, molecules etc, but for spirits etc.

Chakra = Spiritual energy

Reiryoku = Spiritual Energy

Reishi = Spiritual Matter
 
AstralKing7 said:
bruh chakra consist of spirtual energy
I know. And I never said it didn't. But you're not comprehending that it doesn't matter. Because reishi doesn't have spiritual energy. Unless the verse is equalized, chakra needs feats of working on souls that are made from spiritual matter (Reishi) instead of spiritual energy. (Chakra)
 
Dzhindzholia said:
@AppleLord

You say that KS work on soul,isn't it because they are techniqely souls?
It basically works on souls, and human bodies since Vizards and Urahara use a Gigai (fake human body) to fight in. KS affected as well.
 
AstralKing7 said:
genjutsu could work on their reiryoku
And as posted there to no effect since their reiryoku system is not connected like the chakra system. How will the effects travel through their soul? (Assuming nlf that their illusions can affect souls directly without a physical body.)
 
Human, Soul, it doesn't matter. Like seriously, an illusion is an illusion.

  • Bleach is series about Spirits fighting each other with Supernatural abilities
  • Naruto is a series were humans fight each other with Supernatural abilities and aliens tossed in for good measure.
  • Both series have characters who utilize Illusions in their abilities
You can't just say "Oh, well KS works on souls and this character hasn't seen through illusions that work on souls, thus they can't see through KS"....that's asinine when the only differences of the verses are as states in the Bullet points. And it's unreasonable.

That's like me saying, "KS has never been used on a a non-spiritual being thus it won't affect anyone that's not a spirit"....both arguments are asinine and blantantly an "Appeal to Ignorance Fallacy".

So, no...
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Human, Soul, it doesn't matter. Like seriously, an illusion is an illusion.
All of this is irrelevant, because:

  • I never said that they can't see through his illusion because they haven't seen through illusions that work on souls.
  • I said they have no feats of affecting a soul without a body in general.
  • They have no feats of their illusions affecting spiritual matter in general. According to Genjutsu it affects the 5 senses, not just energy. Since when can they affect the 5 senses of souls or spiritual matter in general? Tail beast are made of chakra, spiritual energy, not spiritual matter.
  • Well, KS has affected souls inside a fake human body, something similar to an Edo. KS has feats for both souls and body. Genjutsu doesn't.
IF verse is equalized this wouldn't matter since spiritual matter becomes matter. Or vice-versa. However, you want it to be.
 
AppleLord said:
TheFinalOrder said:
Human, Soul, it doesn't matter. Like seriously, an illusion is an illusion.
All of this is irrelevant, because:

  • I never said that they can't see through his illusion because they haven't seen through illusions that work on souls.
  • I said they have no feats of affecting a soul without a body in general.
  • They have no feats of their illusions affecting spiritual matter in general. According to Genjutsu it affects the 5 senses, not just energy. Since when can they affect the 5 senses of souls or spiritual matter in general? Tail beast are made of chakra, spiritual energy, not spiritual matter.
  • Well, KS has affected souls inside a fake human body, something similar to an Edo. KS has feats for both souls and body. Genjutsu doesn't.
IF verse is equalized this wouldn't matter since spiritual matter becomes matter. Or vice-versa. However, you want it to be.
Spirits in Bleach are made of Reishi...which is spirit energy if you didn't know.

Also, Genjutsu works on the Metaphysical level as well. There are feats of this.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
AppleLord said:
TheFinalOrder said:
Human, Soul, it doesn't matter. Like seriously, an illusion is an illusion.
All of this is irrelevant, because:
  • I never said that they can't see through his illusion because they haven't seen through illusions that work on souls.
  • I said they have no feats of affecting a soul without a body in general.
  • They have no feats of their illusions affecting spiritual matter in general. According to Genjutsu it affects the 5 senses, not just energy. Since when can they affect the 5 senses of souls or spiritual matter in general? Tail beast are made of chakra, spiritual energy, not spiritual matter.
  • Well, KS has affected souls inside a fake human body, something similar to an Edo. KS has feats for both souls and body. Genjutsu doesn't.
IF verse is equalized this wouldn't matter since spiritual matter becomes matter. Or vice-versa. However, you want it to be.
Spirits in Bleach are made of Reishi...which is spirit energy if you didn't know.
Also, Genjutsu works on the Metaphysical level as well. There are feats of this.
Reishi is not spirit energy. Did you even read the previous post? Better, yet show where it says that REISHI is spiritual energy.

I also want that metaphysical level feat

Plus, feats of Genjutsu working on souls without bodies and spiritual matter.

Tumblr o5iw3j8JaE1vrt72jo1 500
Sinner = lies
 
@Applelord

  • Ref. NARUTO ch. 501
Obito Genjutsu's Kurama while he's sealed within Kushina's inner World. Not an outlier either as the Biju state they had to retreat deeper into their shared realm, where the Jinchuriki's spirrits also resided to escape Obito. Sasuke could even project a version of himself into Naruto inner world via the sharingan and converse with Kurama and Naruto.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
@Applelord
  • Ref. NARUTO ch. 501
Obito Genjutsu's Kurama while he's sealed within Kushina's inner World. Not an outlier either as the Biju state they had to retreat deeper into their shared realm, where the Jinchuriki's spirrits also resided to escape Obito. Sasuke could even project a version of himself into Naruto inner world via the sharingan and converse with Kurama and Naruto.
You do know that souls in Naruto are made from chakra, right? Same with Bijuu's. Chakra has spiritual energy, so souls in Naruto are made of spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is Reiryoku in Bleach a.k.a. energy too. But Reishi is not. Reishi is matter, spiritual, but matter.


Is like me saying that Goku from King Piccolo saga can kill Madara without Six path chakra. Of course, if verse is equalized this isn't a problem.
 
AppleLord said:
TheFinalOrder said:
@Applelord
  • Ref. NARUTO ch. 501
Obito Genjutsu's Kurama while he's sealed within Kushina's inner World. Not an outlier either as the Biju state they had to retreat deeper into their shared realm, where the Jinchuriki's spirrits also resided to escape Obito. Sasuke could even project a version of himself into Naruto inner world via the sharingan and converse with Kurama and Naruto.
You do know that souls in Naruto are made from chakra, right? Same with Bijuu's. Chakra has spiritual energy, so souls in Naruto are made of spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is Reiryoku in Bleach a.k.a. energy too. But Reishi is not. Reishi is matter, spiritual, but matter.


Is like me saying that Goku from King Piccolo saga can kill Madara without Six path chakra. Of course, if verse is equalized this isn't a problem.
I see what you did there, lol.

As far as Spirit Energy in Bleach goes, I admit, I was wrong. As far as the Metaphysical proof goes, Ch. 501.
 
At least MS with a really strong chakra is required otherwise Uchiha Clan control every Tailed Beast.
 
Celestial Judge said:
Sasuke did it with base sharingan in the first arc of shippuden...
no he didnt lmao that wasnt putting him under control. That was something totally differetn
 
I never said control I said manipulate. And he surpressed Kurama so Naruto couldn't use him. I think that falls under the line of control.
 
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