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Aizen regen downgrade
- Thread starter Theglassman12
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> Mugetsu completely eradicates the Konpaku
Do we have evidence that Mugetsu completely destroyed Aizen's body and didn't reduce him to just dust, vapor, or atoms?
Do we have evidence that Mugetsu completely destroyed Aizen's body and didn't reduce him to just dust, vapor, or atoms?
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Basically.Sera EX said:
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I'm not satisfied with there being no resolution by just closing the thread. I've still got question that haven't been answered yet.Danny1112 said:
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Since this thread is going in circles, I propose this.Gargoyle One said:
Matt seemed to agree as well
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How is it there is always so much activity on these threads when I'm asleep . . . .
Anyway looks like the only hurdle to the downgrade now is Yama-Jii. To that I answer a far less complicated answer then what's already been given: Downgrade Yama-Jii too.
No honestly, based on feats (Which is what we use here) the absolute best Old man could hope for is to give Aizen a similar injury to what Gin already gave him.
More likley answer is Yamamoto doesn't have EE and its a simple matter of him not having enough AP to harm Aizen or even reach him without getting destroyed py the passive reiatsu.
So yeah, I may have missed something else because there are so many new posts, but that was the only hurdle I saw.
Anyway looks like the only hurdle to the downgrade now is Yama-Jii. To that I answer a far less complicated answer then what's already been given: Downgrade Yama-Jii too.
No honestly, based on feats (Which is what we use here) the absolute best Old man could hope for is to give Aizen a similar injury to what Gin already gave him.
More likley answer is Yamamoto doesn't have EE and its a simple matter of him not having enough AP to harm Aizen or even reach him without getting destroyed py the passive reiatsu.
So yeah, I may have missed something else because there are so many new posts, but that was the only hurdle I saw.
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Can someone remind me why Yama has existence erasure for his Bankai? Negating conventional durability doesn't result in total existence erasure, does it?
If the answer is 'Yama claimed that whatever his blade touches will turn into nothingness', isn't there a chance he's just using hyperbolic language to describe the power of his Bankai as really, really good?
If the answer is 'Yama claimed that whatever his blade touches will turn into nothingness', isn't there a chance he's just using hyperbolic language to describe the power of his Bankai as really, really good?
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Someone can check his statement on Raw. If he say he will turn anything that he touches into nothingness then yes he have EE. thus it's another supporting point for Aizen regen
Not gonna respond to the other guy unless he have read my comment above, and judging by his respon he has not yet do that.
Not gonna respond to the other guy unless he have read my comment above, and judging by his respon he has not yet do that.
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So assuming that by 'turning anything it cuts to nothingness' to mean, Yama can completely destroy the entire body of anyone he attacks, there's still a few unproven assumptions behind it:MachTwo said:
1) Yama can destroy the entire body in a single attack. As shown with his fight against fake-Yhwach, he didn't destroy the entire body, just parts of it.
2) Yama tried to destroy Aizen off-screen and failed.
3) Yama wanted to risk destroying Aizen's body which would also destroy the Kido restraining him and let a crazed illusion-controlling pseudo-God out of his restraints with the chance that he wouldn't die from the attack.
So I don't see ultimately that Yama has EE is strong evidence for Aizen having Low-Godly regen.
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It was a three fold answer:
Artistic visual representation
Word play
Rule of cool
Las argued there wasn't steam so no vaporization, but there was Vapor drawn. Las argued the first and third points. What that means is he used Kubo's art to support his upgrade when it supported it but dismissed it when the art contradicted it.
Otherwise he and one other said it was quoted as "erased" or was "basically erase". Both were false representations of the manga as Yama never used that word. His choice was actually "Eradicated"
I would link you the threead and go into more detail but my comp is still waking up (Slow)
Artistic visual representation
Word play
Rule of cool
Las argued there wasn't steam so no vaporization, but there was Vapor drawn. Las argued the first and third points. What that means is he used Kubo's art to support his upgrade when it supported it but dismissed it when the art contradicted it.
Otherwise he and one other said it was quoted as "erased" or was "basically erase". Both were false representations of the manga as Yama never used that word. His choice was actually "Eradicated"
I would link you the threead and go into more detail but my comp is still waking up (Slow)
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1) That was Zanka no Tachi, North I'm talking about Zanka no Tachi East, I have quite large AoE with its EE
2) Yama tried to destroy Aizen off-screen and failed
Hmm ok so?
3) Yama just need to spam Zanka no Tachi at him, even with North, each cut still erase quite large portion of him as have been show in Gin and Ichigo case, Aizen can't move or at least struggle to move when a portion of his body is gone.
2) Yama tried to destroy Aizen off-screen and failed
Hmm ok so?
3) Yama just need to spam Zanka no Tachi at him, even with North, each cut still erase quite large portion of him as have been show in Gin and Ichigo case, Aizen can't move or at least struggle to move when a portion of his body is gone.
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He say Eradicated into nothingness without a trace
More or less the same as Being Erased. but as I said above, someone can check this on Raw, just to make sure.
More or less the same as Being Erased. but as I said above, someone can check this on Raw, just to make sure.
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1) The cuts don't always have such a wide AOE effect; Yama cut Yhwach's cape but half of Yhwach's body didn't disappear.
2) If we had evidence Yama's EE didn't work on Aizen, that'd be a supporting point. But we don't.
3) Aizen still controls what Yama percieves. Yama could think he is cutting Aizen up into tiny pieces when in reality Aizen safely moved to a far distance.
Which wouldn't matter anyway because we have no evidence he even tried it, or that Urahara and Mayuri were aware of the true power of Yama's Bankai which he seldom ever released.
2) If we had evidence Yama's EE didn't work on Aizen, that'd be a supporting point. But we don't.
3) Aizen still controls what Yama percieves. Yama could think he is cutting Aizen up into tiny pieces when in reality Aizen safely moved to a far distance.
Which wouldn't matter anyway because we have no evidence he even tried it, or that Urahara and Mayuri were aware of the true power of Yama's Bankai which he seldom ever released.
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1)I feels like it's because at that time Yama Flames is being concentrated on the tip of his blade? it was the tip of his blade who cause that destruction
2) We have? Urahara and Mayuri has stated no one in SS can kill him and Aizen is not the only immortal who cant be killed, they have many more of those guy lock is SS, that literally the reason why Muken exist, a prison for ppl who cant be killed.
3) Aizen is being sealed in 1 place, Yama just need to spam Bankai at him and thats it, he cant just fools Yama like that with KS when he being lock and sealed with no part of his body can move.
>Which wouldn't matter anyway because we have no evidence he even tried it, or that Urahara and Mayuri were aware of the true power of Yama's Bankai which he seldom ever released.
As I said above, Aizen is not the first Immortal, Yama and the other is deff know better about these guy and how SS cant kill them with the same reason why SS cant kill Aizen, and this is Urahara btw, I don't think he will be so misinformation about Yama bankai, when even young captain like Hitsugaya have some knowledge about Yama bankai. not like that will matter since Yama deff want to kill Aizen of he can kill him.
2) We have? Urahara and Mayuri has stated no one in SS can kill him and Aizen is not the only immortal who cant be killed, they have many more of those guy lock is SS, that literally the reason why Muken exist, a prison for ppl who cant be killed.
3) Aizen is being sealed in 1 place, Yama just need to spam Bankai at him and thats it, he cant just fools Yama like that with KS when he being lock and sealed with no part of his body can move.
>Which wouldn't matter anyway because we have no evidence he even tried it, or that Urahara and Mayuri were aware of the true power of Yama's Bankai which he seldom ever released.
As I said above, Aizen is not the first Immortal, Yama and the other is deff know better about these guy and how SS cant kill them with the same reason why SS cant kill Aizen, and this is Urahara btw, I don't think he will be so misinformation about Yama bankai, when even young captain like Hitsugaya have some knowledge about Yama bankai. not like that will matter since Yama deff want to kill Aizen of he can kill him.
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I think Damage is making the more valid argument here.
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As for what I think Aizen's Regenerationn should be; if we go with the interpretation that Mugestu broke him into pieces which reformed (his fragmented body is obscured by darkness in the manga, it's impossible to prove he was completely destroyed or that he wasn't just reduced to dust, or atoms, etc.)
I think that High-Mid, or At least High-Mid is the most reasonable rating based on Aizen's Regenerationn feats alone.
I think trying to bring Yama's Bankai is overcomplicating the issue and injecting too much speculation into his rating.
I think that High-Mid, or At least High-Mid is the most reasonable rating based on Aizen's Regenerationn feats alone.
I think trying to bring Yama's Bankai is overcomplicating the issue and injecting too much speculation into his rating.
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Lol he is making a fan fiction if were being honest,via his story it wouldn't be possible for Aizen to even be tied up to the chair twice.
Mayuri is a much more credible source then something he said that has 0 basis,the entire purpose of Muken is for prisoners that Soul Society cannot permanently kill.
No new evidence has been brought up to go against this rating,it's the same recycled arguments from the previous thread that apperently spanned 2-3 different discussion iwth multiple different staff members.
Mayuri is a much more credible source then something he said that has 0 basis,the entire purpose of Muken is for prisoners that Soul Society cannot permanently kill.
No new evidence has been brought up to go against this rating,it's the same recycled arguments from the previous thread that apperently spanned 2-3 different discussion iwth multiple different staff members.
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One of my options was At least High-Mid.Sera EX said:
I'm saying that we shouldn't just speculate that they considered using Yama's Bankai to erase Aizen from existence if the story doesn't even hint at it.
Urahara and Mayuri aren't confirmed to have the full knowledge of Yama's Bankai abilities before he revealed it, and it's presumptuous to think they had any other way of completely erasing Aizen's body from existence.
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No one in Soul Society can cut off Aizen's head via this thread,not even Shunsui's reality warping Bankai that specifically has a part that cuts off the head.
Half the people against it don't even know how souls function,as IMade repeatedly stated his Regenerationn is linked to his reiatsu.They cannot stop the flow of his energy because they cannot stop his heart and no it's not his literal heart which Gin was already shown to have destroyed.
Half the people against it don't even know how souls function,as IMade repeatedly stated his Regenerationn is linked to his reiatsu.They cannot stop the flow of his energy because they cannot stop his heart and no it's not his literal heart which Gin was already shown to have destroyed.
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Isn't that a bit contradictory? IMade said that the Mugetsu which tore Aizen to pieces is part-Quincy in nature and therefore targeted Aizen's soul as well as his body.
If Aizen's soul was destroyed with his body, how could he have a (metaphorical) "beating heart" and still have spiritual pressure continuing to flow? Where does Spiritual Pressure come from if both Aizen's body and soul were fully destroyed?
Also, that scan says nothing about completely destroying / erasing Aizen's body, or attempting to stop his 'heart' that way. If Mayuri said something along the lines of "We tried stopping his life by completely erasing his body from existance" then I'd be willing to accept it of course.
If Aizen's soul was destroyed with his body, how could he have a (metaphorical) "beating heart" and still have spiritual pressure continuing to flow? Where does Spiritual Pressure come from if both Aizen's body and soul were fully destroyed?
Also, that scan says nothing about completely destroying / erasing Aizen's body, or attempting to stop his 'heart' that way. If Mayuri said something along the lines of "We tried stopping his life by completely erasing his body from existance" then I'd be willing to accept it of course.
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So you want all the information spoon fed to you? come on now this Bleach and just now were getting some explainations from the novel about things we been asking and even then just more questions come up.
Also your forgeting something important which is the Hogyoku..it came out completely unscathed in the Mugetsu and Aizen was still the owner of it.It likely gave him a new body like the Shikon Jewel from Inuyasha.
Also your forgeting something important which is the Hogyoku..it came out completely unscathed in the Mugetsu and Aizen was still the owner of it.It likely gave him a new body like the Shikon Jewel from Inuyasha.
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> Also your forgeting something important which is the Hogyoku..it came out completely unscathed in the Mugetsu and Aizen was still the owner of it.
Wait, where do we see the Hogyoku being completely unscathed by the Mugetsu?
Wait, where do we see the Hogyoku being completely unscathed by the Mugetsu?
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I mean it's still bound to his chest and doesn't even have a scratch on it as far as we know.It manifests the desires of those around it and the will of the owner.It even as a will of it's own so it can make decisions for itself.
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> I mean it's still bound to his chest and doesn't even have a scratch on it as far as we know.
That wouldn't make sense seeing as the Hogyoku is no longer attached to Aizen yet he presumably still has Regenerationn, and just because we didn't see the Hogyoku being destroyed (and regenerating/reforming) in the Mugetsu doesn't mean it potentially wasn't.
Aizen's crumbling body in the Mugetsu was covered entirely by darkness in the manga so we don't get a great glimpse at what happened to it.
That wouldn't make sense seeing as the Hogyoku is no longer attached to Aizen yet he presumably still has Regenerationn, and just because we didn't see the Hogyoku being destroyed (and regenerating/reforming) in the Mugetsu doesn't mean it potentially wasn't.
Aizen's crumbling body in the Mugetsu was covered entirely by darkness in the manga so we don't get a great glimpse at what happened to it.
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That's because he retained the healing factor and immortality granted by it,this would be akin to saying he doesn't have immortality anymore because it's gone.
The Hogyoku was completely unaffected by the celluar destruction that Gin had.It's a device that grants wishes and the desires of others and can even make decisions itself.
The Hogyoku was completely unaffected by the celluar destruction that Gin had.It's a device that grants wishes and the desires of others and can even make decisions itself.
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Holy shit, this thread like doubled overnight.
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@Warren I mean, this is a CRT from a well known character in a pretty popular verse in the wiki.
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Have you seen the arguments for the downgrade at all?IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The reasons for the downgrade, at least not mine, are not about if Mugetsu has a Quincy's Soul Destruction Ability or about Aizen regenerating from the Hogyoku.
It's about the fact that Aizen never regenerated off-screen.
Let's go through the events, shall we?
>Ichigo used Mugetsu, bisecting Aizen vertically.
>We see half of Aizen's body from the perspective. His wings are disintegrating.
>Multiple large landscape shots that show off Mugetsu's destructive power and AoE.
>We see Ichigo land and is wrappings break.
>From the leftover dust and smoke of Ichigo's attack comes Aizen, falling to the ground.
>Aizen, who is still bisected vertically, seems to be dead suddenly regenerates the bisection shut.
>Ichigo, in shock of Aizen being alive, rushes over to Aizen and as he is about to attack him once again, the price that Mugetsu took on his body begins to take hold
>Aizen, who is in a different form than we ever seen before - seemingly a mixture between his God Form and his Transcendent Form, stands up and taunts Ichigo on his failure.
>Aizen's Zanpaktuo disintegrates and he proclaims that he is evolving once again.
>Urahara's Kido begins to activate, showing that Aizen was not evolving, but devolving back into a Shinigami.
>Aizen proclaims his hatred for Kisuke as Kisuke explains that the Hogyoku has rejected Aizen and it was because Ichigo was able to weaken Aizen so immensely that his Kido was even able to take effect.
>Aizen is finally sealed.
>Aizen in the Muken has obtained some leftover effects from his brief fusion with the Hogyoku. He maintained his regenerative capabilities, his immortality, and also seemingly gained Passive Accelerated Development as he was able to get stronger during the two years of his incarceration despite being sealed up and forced to remain in a chair.
From this set of circumstances, the belief is that Aizen didn't regenerate off-screen. That the disintegration around his wings was just him devolving because of the Hogyoku's rejection, and the only Regenerationn that Aizen did in that scene was what we saw, as if he regenerated a completely new body, he wouldn't still have the bisection that was from Mugetsu.
The reasoning for not believing he regenerated is because he wouldn't have the injury if he regenerated a whole new body from his Low-Godly.
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Your mistake, Warren, is thinking that Aizen devolved. Aizen fused with his Zanpakuto after he was hit by Mugetsu. He was weakened by Mugetsu and the Hogyoku rejected him, yet he reached a higher level that becomes EoS Aizen, a much more powerful form.
Your entire stance for supporting the downgrade is also ignoring the fact that Aizen's Regenerationn, as revealed in the final arc, stems from his Reiatsu being produced which is from his Soul.
Your entire stance for supporting the downgrade is also ignoring the fact that Aizen's Regenerationn, as revealed in the final arc, stems from his Reiatsu being produced which is from his Soul.
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What?IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
He devolved.
That was literally what happened right before our eyes. He lost the majority of his hollow-like appearance that was his "God Form" after Mugetsu, and eventually lost any remnant of his "transcendent" appearance in its entirety.
His ivory skin (a trademark of his evolved forms) cracked and disappeared leaving Aizen with his natural hair color, hair length, eye color, and skin color.
He became a Shinigami once again.
We saw this crystal clear right before our eyes.
EoS Aizen isn't a new form. It's just Aizen at the end of the series, locked away in the Muken.
And I'm not ignoring anything.
Aizen's Regenerationn, immortality, and what seems to be Passive Accelerated Development (as Aizen got stronger over the entirety of his incarceration in the nearly two-year time-skip) all came from the Hogyoku.
I am NOT saying he has those abilities because the Hogyoku is still within Aizen, that is not what I am saying because it is not true.
What I AM saying is that the reason Aizen has those abilities is that even after the Hogyoku rejected him and was taking out of his body, the Hogyoku left Aizen with those abilities. His fusing with his Zanpaktuo could also have been a parting gift that the Hogyoku gave before leaving him.
Aizen's current Regenerationn at the EoS is fueled by his Reiatsu, but the reason he has regenerative capabilities in the first place is because of the Hogyoku leaving him with those abilities even after it rejected him.
So no, I'm not "ignoring" the "Reiatsu comes from the heart pumping it out like blood" scan you keep bringing up. It just has no relevance to what happened in the scene.
That being that Aizen didn't regenerate a completely new body (AKA Low-Godly Regen), because he was still injured by the same wound Ichigo gave him (The Vertical Bisection).
^That bolded part is the argument, he didn't regenerate. Let's stop talking about EoS Aizen, or Reiatsu, or whatever, and bring it back to if Aizen did or did not regenerate a completely new body off-screen.
I believe he didn't for reasons I mentioned above.
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Did you just stop reading after the second line? I mention all of this.KuuIchigo said:
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Then your entire argument is based on Aizen having a vertical slash when he was on the ground.
There are several issues with that.
There are several issues with that.
- Aizen was already regenerating before he hit the ground. The last we saw of Aizen had Aizen with his legs, torso, arm and head almost entirely gone from Mugets. When we see Aizen for the first time after the attack, Aizen has already begun regenerating since his arm, torso, legs and head are regenerated, the only thing that needs to be healed is the halves to be reconnected.
- The entire assumption relies on what happened after we last see Aize and when we finally do see Aizen. There are two scans between those scenes and Aizen is not see in either of those scans.
- Using what we have been shown, that Mugetsu is Quincy compose, that Mugetsu's crumbling effect resembles Quincy attacks, that Quincy attacks destroy the Konpaku (the body of the soul), that Aizen wasn't visible in the two scans after the attack, the fact that Aizen was already regenerating before he hit the ground and that Aizen's Regenerationn stems from his soul... Low-Godly very much is correct.
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> that Mugetsu's crumbling effect resembles Quincy attacks
I assume you have comparison pics?
Also, wouldn't this apply to everyone that has recovered from a Quincy attack? Does everyone in Bleach that recovers from a Quincy attack have Low-Godly regen?
I assume you have comparison pics?
Also, wouldn't this apply to everyone that has recovered from a Quincy attack? Does everyone in Bleach that recovers from a Quincy attack have Low-Godly regen?
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